Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[RockSP]

And that should have been an influence since it's not a melodrama. And Big Trouble in Little China was also a low budget film that placed wuxia elements in present day America. Like after watching a frozen mummy, a talking raccoon, undead ninjas and virtually everything about Doctor Strange, Marvel decide that they're now finally embarrassed by the source material.

It's strange how you keep putting the movie side of things in with the tv side. Yes the imaginary stories take place in the same universe but these are two different departments in the real world. Kevin Fiege runs the movie division but has no involvement in the tv shows. So it's not like "marvel" is embarrassed by the source material, but maybe the showrunner of this particular tv show was.

 

[kguillou]

The disappointing thing is I assumed that IF's purpose was to be the "bridge series" that literally leads us into the Defenders. I'm assuming that the Defenders is going to dive heavily into the weird, mystical-ness of The Hand and probably other more fantastical elements that I ASSUMED Iron Fist was going to introduce.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Like Batman and Arrow?

If you are going to label Iron Fist as a white savior, then pretty much every superhero who is white and is good at fighting and martial arts is a white savior, but especially Batman and Arrow.

That would depend on how you decide to depict Batman and Arrow. The main elements of the trope are seeing a white person (usually man), displaced into an area where he is surrounded by other people of ethnicity or color. He typically learns something about himself from these people and usually by saving these people, and it typically ends with him assuming a mantle of leadership over the people of color he needs to save. It also typically shows him becoming the best at a certain set of skills that are intrinsically linked to the specific culture he has come to "save."

Batman typically doesn't fall into this category, because in the comics, and I would argue in BB, he is clearly shown to only be in these other places to learn how to fight for his own purposes. And in BB he wasn't even shown as being the best fighter, Ra's nearly always beat him in a fight. Batman didn't assume any kind of cultural mantle typically associated with the culture he came to. Batman wasn't depicted as a savior of this culture. Same with Arrow.

Danny falls more closely into the trope. I need to watch the show myself to see how much and if he really fits the trope all that well, but it's pretty easy to see that he lies closer to it than either Batman or Arrow just given his own source material.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I think the worst part about this is that (barring a mid-season shift where the show becomes good--keep in mind these shows are notorious for mid-season shifts) the pretty disastrous response effectively kills the hype anyone had for Defenders. People are fickle.

It stings to have four seasons/three series that have better acclaim than most things on television and then for this to (allegedly) suck so hard.

Nah. With how popular DD, JJ, and LC, and DD Season 2 were, lots of people are still going to be hyped about Defenders. If anything, it'll hurt the chances of IF ever getting a season two, but it won't stop people from watching the team up.

The Incredible Hulk's lukewarm reception did nothing to hurt the Avengers, so I doubt IF will hurt Defenders much at all.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

....Yeah, there is. I think some of the criticisms (race wise) on the show are a over exaggerated as well. But the trope is definitely a thing.

Who are the minority he is saving in abundance? He leaves K'un-Lun and returns to the US, where he is saving people of all races.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Who are these minorities he is saving in abundance?

I didn't say anything about Iron Fist, in fact, if you glance at my post above this, I specifically say that I need to watch the show before I make any judgements on it. However, what I was saying is that the White Savior trope most definitely exists. That's what I took your original post to mean. It sounded like you were denying the very concept to exist.

 

[TheVileOne]

This isn't going to keep me off Defenders or the rest of Iron Fist. But I will like to see how it affects or changes things.

I'm just sort of saddened because this was the show I wanted the most.

 

[Infinity9999x]

This isn't going to keep me off Defenders or the rest of Iron Fist. But I will like to see how it affects or changes things.

I'm just sort of saddened because this was the show I wanted the most.

It's a bummer, to be sure. But I would be surprised if it hurts Defenders all that much. I think people are going to be drawn to the show on the popularity of the previous three characters. I mean, look at how big Avengers was despite many of the general audience not going to see Cap or Thor's solo films.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I didn't say anything about Iron Fist, in fact, if you glance at my post above this, I specifically say that I need to watch the show before I make any judgements on it. However, what I was saying is that the White Savior trope most definitely exists. That's what I took your original post to mean. It sounded like you were denying the very concept to exist.

Oh, no, I know it exist. That isn't what I meant. I meant in Iron Fist.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Oh, no, I know it exist. That isn't what I meant. I meant in Iron Fist.

Ahhh, okay. That was my misunderstanding then.

Yeah, I need to watch the show to see how much of the White Savior trope Danny falls into. I can see how, given the source material he veers closer to the trope than say someone like Batman does, but I don't think it's going to be as bad as something like, say, Free State of Jones was.

 

[TheVileOne]

It's a bummer, to be sure. But I would be surprised if it hurts Defenders all that much. I think people are going to be drawn to the show on the popularity of the previous three characters. I mean, look at how big Avengers was despite many of the general audience not going to see Cap or Thor's solo films.

I also doubt it seriously hurts Defenders

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ahhh, okay. That was my misunderstanding then.

Yeah, I need to watch the show to see how much of the White Savior trope Danny falls into. I can see how, given the source material he veers closer to the trope than say someone like Batman does, but I don't think it's going to be as bad as something like, say, Free State of Jones was.

The way it was written, I can totally understand why you read it that way.

Yeah, can't say much about the show until we see it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am not sure how much this is all going to hurt Iron Fist. I doubt it does the numbers of the other 3 shows, but it should do good business based of those shows popularity and the brand name.

 

[samsnee]

Cant say I disagree.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/marvels-iron-fist-proves-superheroes-must-change-or-die.html

Like with Luke Cage, they had an opportunity to update the character as he isn't really well known. Instead it sounds like they went with a cliche story and told it in the most boring way possible.

 

[TheVileOne]

I kind of do disagree with how they are saying no on cares about this character. Yes Iron Fist is more obscure, but this is a character who has generally lasted pretty consistently for four decades. I feel like if they went more with the Brubaker/Fraction style, this could've been a homerun.

 

[McSir]

Nah. With how popular DD, JJ, and LC, and DD Season 2 were, lots of people are still going to be hyped about Defenders. If anything, it'll hurt the chances of IF ever getting a season two, but it won't stop people from watching the team up.

The Incredible Hulk's lukewarm reception did nothing to hurt the Avengers, so I doubt IF will hurt Defenders much at all.

This isn't going to keep me off Defenders or the rest of Iron Fist. But I will like to see how it affects or changes things.

I'm just sort of saddened because this was the show I wanted the most.

Well, I was mostly referring to the less invested; the normies who don't posted on superhero message boards. I'm sure everyone posting here will likely binge the show.

Also, The Incredible Hulk didn't lead into The Avengers. It came before the plan to make The Avengers was even solidified, if I recall. If The First Avenger had out and out flopped there would have been cause to worry about Avengers.

I think I'm coming off a lot more negative than I feel. I'm not terribly surprised that this (allegedly) isn't very good. But my feelings on these shows have been more mixed than the general consensus.

 

[Big Bang]

You kid, but you kind of touch upon something: far, far too often when people discuss media, "diverse" is synonymous with "black". If your lucky, it'll mean "black and hispanic".

I have, kid you not, encountered people who would make extensive arguments for why an all black cast is "diverse".

Anyway, this is tangential, so I will repeat the actual on-topic comment I've had for a while: Danny Rand is one of those characters for whom their whiteness is actually a character point. Firstly, because of how he is a man who doesn't belong in both Kun Lun ( where he's a white dude ), and in NYC ( where he's a guy from Shangri-La ). Secondly, because of how his personal friendship with Luke Cage works, vis a vis him being a privileged rich white guy.

Changing him to be Asian-American kind of wrecks both character points, and the logic behind doing so has a whole bunch of unrealized racist undertones ( notably: "Asian-American is the same thing as white, they don't get to count as a minority", which is really precious coming from people simultaneously arguing for how oppressed Asian-Americans are by Hollywood ). This is not like swapping Johnny Storm's race, where his character is almost 100% indifferent to ethnicity.

Quoted for truth.

All of this talk of race lifting makes me think of a certain speech.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

Words, that when reflecting on the arguments for change for the sake of representation, seem to ring rather hollow.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I kind of do disagree with how they are saying no on cares about this character. Yes Iron Fist is more obscure, but this is a character who has generally lasted pretty consistently for four decades. I feel like if they went more with the Brubaker/Fraction style, this could've been a homerun.

I agree with this completely.

 

[TheVileOne]

Obviously there was quite a bit of course-correction they had to do because of Incredible Hulk. The falling out with Ed Norton AND the fact that they never made any sequels either. And the film didn't perform that well either.

The Tony Stark ending basically implied that the Avengers were being formed and would come together to help subdue the Hulk similar to the first run of Ultimates. That didn't take place.

 

[TheVileOne]

I agree with this completely.

It's not rocket science. James Gunn basically used the DnA run of Guardians of the Galaxy for his starting point on that film, and it's plain to see in the movie. Ragtag motley crew of heroes/sci-fi space opera.

 

[McSir]

The Tony Stark ending basically implied that the Avengers were being formed and would come together to help subdue the Hulk similar to the first run of Ultimates. That didn't take place.

For the better.

Unfortunately, with Defenders filmed the time for course correction, if they needed it, is past.

 

[2kt09]

Words, that when reflecting on the arguments for change for the sake of representation, seem to ring rather hollow.

MLKJr wasn't at all talking about

 

[Surfer]

I know critics are hating on this show, but it is entirely possible this show will be the opposite of Luke Cage, where the first 6 episodes are kind of Meh, but setting up the 2nd half to be something spectacular. I think of some of the cringe worthy episodes that started Agents of SHIELD, but later paid off greatly to those who continued watching. So, while I am not happy to hear it is getting poor reviews I think one can not always judge the whole by the part. So I will be watching the entire season before I pass judgement.

Surfer

 

[Big Bang]

MLKJr wasn't at all talking about

Neither was I, in case you didn't notice.

 

[2kt09]

Neither was I, in case you didn't notice.

Are people asking Finn Jones to change his skin color?