BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 2

[regwec]

Conflicted heroes are not a product of the last thirteen years; ask Hamlet.

 

[Persistence]

It seems obvious this movie isn't going to be great character and plot development wise. The overall rushed, directing-by-committee, and cramming of unnecessary characters for marketing.

Superman was too melancholy in the last film and now that he's paired up with Batman it seems unlikely that's going to change. Look at all the marketing of Superman standing in the rain looking all grim. Can't show him smiling or something? Where is the beacon of hope?

The action will be great. We know Snyder isn't directing The Dark Knight, Iron Man, or The Winter Soldier or X-men United. The question is will this movie be ok like last endeavor (Man of Steel / Iron Man 2) or crap (X-men 3, Xmen Origins, Iron Man 3).

 

[Persistence]

I just wanted to say that I never got the impression Hopeful didn't like Henry.
I think that she wanted to see more hope and optimism in both the character of Clark and the story itself .
That is just a guess on my part .

yeah, I get that impression, she's never liked melancholy performances in both Man of Steel and Superman Returns. People want to see a larger than life inspirational, charismatic hero and Warner Brothers seems relunctant to bring that on screen because that just isn't modern or hip in post 9/11 world.

 

[Tra-El]

Fair enough, man. I just...



...have no idea of the underlined is so easy to let go of. It seems like such a sad thing to admit and accept, a Superman movie that lacks those things. To each his own, I suppose. I'm also hoping for the best with BVS.

Once MoS was announced, it was very clear the angle this new Superman reboot was going to go in. For years even before its release, MoS was labeled as "The Batman Begins of Superman" and how it's going to be a more serious take on the character when it came to a real world setting and how badly they wanted to separate from the Reeve-era.

MoS was straight forward into accepting itself from being different than any other Superman movie we've seen and in the end, I think this is what the modern version, especially in cinema's, needed to kickstart a bigger franchise.

Now, the thing is, MoS was ONLY the beginning and we are going to have the opportunity to see Superman grow. Though MoS set the tone, there's still many more movies to follow. It's only the beginning. As I said before, the aurora to Superman was still in MoS and you can see the potential charm play out through these next adventures.

 

[Persistence]

You can make create a modern interpretation of Superman...while keeping his optimistic tone in tact. Nolan's Batman seemed more optimistic than Snyder's Superman if you can believe that.

What bothers me is that Snyder's Superman has no motivation to present himself publicly until General Zod shows up. The fact that main conflict arises because Clark Kent chooses to investigate his past (which leads to distress signal to General Zod) seems to muddy the significance of Superman's reveal.

 

[Tra-El]

You can make create a modern interpretation of Superman...while keeping his optimistic tone in tact. Nolan's Batman seemed more optimistic than Snyder's Superman if you can believe that.

They were still two different movies, plots and stories. Givin' the story, the Clark Kent role was written to feel complexity of being an alien, an unknown, a man searching for why he even exists or what his purpose was to begin with. The only time we've really seen Supes comfortable was the ending of Man of Steel and that's the point. When Superman starts doing more "Superman-like" stuff, it'll be more appreciated.

What bothers me is that Snyder's Superman has no motivation to present himself publicly until General Zod shows up. The fact that main conflict arises because Clark Kent chooses to investigate his past (which leads to distress signal to General Zod) seems to muddy the significance of Superman's reveal.

That's because Pa Kent fathered him into finding out what his reason was first. Clark's entire character as a child and how he reacted was because he WANTED to present himself publicly. It wasn't until his father's concerns of him not being ready to where he started to hide himself for the greater good of how people would react but make no mistake, Clark was always going to publicly come out without a doubt. It just so happened that Zod showed up in the meantime.

 

[-Arya-]

It seems obvious this movie isn't going to be great character and plot development wise. The overall rushed, directing-by-committee, and cramming of unnecessary characters for marketing.

Superman was too melancholy in the last film and now that he's paired up with Batman it seems unlikely that's going to change. Look at all the marketing of Superman standing in the rain looking all grim. Can't show him smiling or something? Where is the beacon of hope?

The action will be great. We know Snyder isn't directing The Dark Knight, Iron Man, or The Winter Soldier or X-men United. The question is will this movie be ok like last endeavor (Man of Steel / Iron Man 2) or crap (X-men 3, Xmen Origins, Iron Man 3).

It way too soon to declare that BvS will have a terrible plot and poor character development. We don't have enough information to make such statements.

 

[regwec]

Superman was too melancholy in the last film and now that he's paired up with Batman it seems unlikely that's going to change.

No, I think that shows a lack of foresight or understanding. The obvious conflict between the two is in their world views; Batman will forever be the cynic of the two.

 

[The Batman]

...I honestly thought that some MOS defenders were past being bitter/whiny over this thread's existence...after reading the past few pages, I see that that isn't the case.

If the title of this thread were changed, would that stop some people from coming in here?

 

[Persistence]

They were still two different movies, plots and stories. Givin' the story, the Clark Kent role was written to feel complexity of being an alien, an unknown, a man searching for why he even exists or what his purpose was to begin with. The only time we've really seen Supes comfortable was the ending of Man of Steel and that's the point. When Superman starts doing more "Superman-like" stuff, it'll be more appreciated.

I guess my complaint is that it seems the fact Clark Kent is an alien is the entire core of the movie and his character. His upbringing in rural Kansas with humble beginning is pretty much overlooked and butchered. "Maybe you can let people die...you're not my real father" Standing around while his father dies. Jonathan Kent's characterization is completely butchered in this movie. I can understand feeling different...but if it gets to the point you can't feel compassion or connection to any human other than your mother...how is he going to all of sudden click as a inspiring hero for mankind? It just seems the development wasn't there in that movie...and it doesn't look like they're going to have time in this one either.

 

[regwec]

@ The Batman

What's wrong with discussion? You can grumble, we can bring cheer and mirth. We all grow a little.

 

[The Batman]

What's wrong with discussion? You can grumble, we can bring cheer and mirth. We all grow a little.

But you guys don't bring cheer and mirth.

Some actually produce discussion, but most of the people that whine about this thread bring absolutely nothing to the table.

They're essentially having a temper tantrum just because some people aren't head over heels for MOS/Snyder/B vs S.

 

[Persistence]

No, I think that shows a lack of foresight or understanding. The obvious conflict between the two is in their world views; Batman will forever be the cynic of the two.

It's early, but I don't get impression Superman is going to be presented as an inspiring figure in contrast to Batman's pragmatic cynicism. We can't just ignore all the stuff Superman has done and endured in Man of Steel (destruction, breaking necks in front of people). I get the impression Superman and Batman are going to be in a pissing match as to who is stronger, more badass, and who should be the leader of the Justice League. I feel that's how Snyder is going to approach the film...who is more powerful.

 

[Tra-El]

I guess my complaint is that it seems the fact Clark Kent is an alien is the entire core of the movie and his character. His upbringing in rural Kansas with humble beginning is pretty much overlooked and butchered. "Maybe you can let people die...you're not my real father" Standing around while his father dies. Jonathan Kent's characterization is completely butchered in this movie. I can understand feeling different...but if it gets to the point you can't feel compassion or connection to any human other than your mother...how is he going to all of sudden click as a inspiring hero for mankind? It just seems the development wasn't there in that movie...and it doesn't look like they're going to have time in this one either.

Snyder did say that he wanted to pound in the fact like a hammer that Superman is indeed alien and most people overlook that. They wanted to embrace that fact but I don't agree with Clark not having compassion or a connection to any other human than his mom. That's the thing about Superman. He IS going to click immediately as an inspiring hero for mankind because he's SUPERMAN and he can't help it.

It was shown as a child he wanted to to nothing but help people when he could. Thing is, the circumstance of Clark's existence made it not only hard on him, but his parents too and that's okay. MoS was a story about choice and hope. Some disastrous things happened along the way, but it's what played out in this experience that is going to groom Superman in the Superman that has been battle tested.

It just seems the development wasn't there in that movie...and it doesn't look like they're going to have time in this one either.

I think this will be the movie that will do nothing BUT focus on that development. Snyder said they will focus on Superman with the aftermath of MoS and how the interaction with other heroes changes a lot of things in how he views life as well. We're just going to have to wait and see.

 

[The Batman]

It's early, but I don't get impression Superman is going to be presented as an inspiring figure in contrast to Batman's pragmatic cynicism. We can't just ignore all the stuff Superman has done and endured in Man of Steel (destruction, breaking necks in front of people). I get the impression Superman and Batman are going to be in a pissing match as to who is stronger, more badass, and who should be the leader of the Justice League. I feel that's how Snyder is going to approach the film...who is more powerful.

With the Superman we're introduced to in MOS, I don't see him and Batman as a case of good cop/bad cop...more like Gray Cop/Dark Gray cop.

Not that Superman was dark in MOS....but he just dosen't seem like the completely bright, idealized figure of the comics. Then again, B v S Superman could end up being that.

 

[-Arya-]

It's early, but I don't get impression Superman is going to be presented as an inspiring figure in contrast to Batman's pragmatic cynicism. We can't just ignore all the stuff Superman has done and endured in Man of Steel (destruction, breaking necks in front of people). I get the impression Superman and Batman are going to be in a pissing match as to who is stronger, more badass, and who should be the leader of the Justice League. I feel that's how Snyder is going to approach the film...who is more powerful.

I don't think it will be ignored. If anything, the events in MOS present a great opportunity for Superman to grow and develop.

 

[Persistence]

I was reading in Henry Cavill as Superman thread...and I agree with Llama Shepherd where he wrote this movie is better off not even referencing Man of Steel and just portraying Superman as heroic and inspiring as possible. That's going to be tricky given the amount of destruction in previous film...perhaps that is best for this film. I'm just not sure Snyder is interested in portraying Superman this way. He was all about breaking from Christopher Nolan and DC on breaking General Zod's neck. It doesn't even look like Superman is going to be marketed as optimistic in this film...based on set pics, the logo. I hope I'm wrong on that though. I'm at least glad they brought the Argo screenwriter on board though.

 

[Visualiza]

...I honestly thought that some MOS defenders were past being bitter/whiny over this thread's existence...after reading the past few pages, I see that that isn't the case.

If the title of this thread were changed, would that stop some people from coming in here?

I think we all know the answer to that question.

But you guys don't bring cheer and mirth.

Some actually produce discussion, but most of the people that whine about this thread bring absolutely nothing to the table.

They're essentially having a temper tantrum just because some people aren't head over heels for MOS/Snyder/B vs S.

Exactly. It's amusing to me that the most dogmatic sycophants who are supposedly upbeat and hopeful for this movie can be so malicious and quarrelsome. The sad part is that there are some lifelong fans of the character who are constantly shooed away and derided simply for voicing their displeasure with Snyder & Co.'s interpretation of the character. If a Superman fan doesn't belong on a Superman board, then I don't know who does. Your sig is a very appropriate description of the post you're replying to, btw.

The BvS forums, poisoning the well one post at a time.

It's early, but I don't get impression Superman is going to be presented as an inspiring figure in contrast to Batman's pragmatic cynicism. We can't just ignore all the stuff Superman has done and endured in Man of Steel (destruction, breaking necks in front of people). I get the impression Superman and Batman are going to be in a pissing match as to who is stronger, more badass, and who should be the leader of the Justice League. I feel that's how Snyder is going to approach the film...who is more powerful.

If he is, I fear that it may be shoehorned. Snyder isn't very effective when it comes to subtlety or nuance, so I think that we'll be presented with a world that matter-of-factually adores Superman unconditionally (not unlike some of the folks around here) and expect the audience to accept that. I could be wrong, but that's just a concern of mine until we know more.

It's difficult to buy into this Superman because he hardly said a word throughout the duration of his own movie, so I think it will be a tough pill to swallow imagining this guy as a charismatic leader that can match wits with Batman. Then again, Snyder's vision for Batman remains to be seen as well; he may very well be every bit the blank slate that Superman is.

 

[regwec]

Unless Superman is portrayed as a moron, he will inevitably display some emotions other than wide-eyed, happy-clappy optimism.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Rumor of Snyder getting hyped at a meeting with visual effects team and taking shot at limitations of Avengers heroes.

“ I want jaws to f***ing drop. It’s time to shake up the balance of realism, and add a bit of wow factor. People are paying money to see these super powered beings in all their glory. It has to look awesome, better than anything they have ever seen in any superhero movie. Look at the competition (Avengers), we will have characters doing things that they can’t do. It’s gotta be shown and blow people away…”

 

[Tra-El]

I don't think they should run away from Man of Steel. They embraced the movie enough to where it opened up a new Batman and DCCUniverse to begin with. Running away from it will be cowardly. They should hit it head on IMO, it will do nothing but make Superman's story stick out even more in the natural story progression.

You can still have Superman being heroic and inspiring as humanly possible and still reference the destruction of the last film. It's where villains like Lex come in to piece it all together. I hope they don't run away and with a director like Snyder, he WON'T.

 

[Persistence]

Rumor of Snyder getting hyped at a meeting with visual effects team and taking shot at limitations of Avengers heroes.

“ I want jaws to f***ing drop. It’s time to shake up the balance of realism, and add a bit of wow factor. People are paying money to see these super powered beings in all their glory. It has to look awesome, better than anything they have ever seen in any superhero movie. Look at the competition (Avengers), we will have characters doing things that they can’t do. It’s gotta be shown and blow people away…”

Hmm....thanks for the post.

We need to be careful, it seems like comparing DC to Marvel is forbidden in these forums for some reason.

Snyder's obsession with action is going to limit the potential for this series. We can see that's all he cares about...not about portraying a particular atmosphere, world, philosophy, tone....its all about walls to walls action. Sigh.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

No specific plot details or spoilers, but some updates on what we can expect in terms of visuals for superpowers in Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice. There are tests already being done to coincide with Justice League as well, because production will likely be moving much faster on the next installment. The current visual effects team is working on new powers that were not displayed in Man of Steel, as well as updates to previous powers that were seen. One of the new characters is going to push the limits of Superman’s speed, and there are a multitude of different types of effects being tested to show different types of “speed moments” There is a test in showing a vibration effect where the character almost seems to disappear.

Another test shot has a buildup of wind, ice, and debris which move in a tornado formation around a growing blur that outlines the characters body. Also there is a speed effect similar to bullet time to show more of a superhero perspective, where the audience sees how time and speed are slowed down the faster that the character moves. I immediately thought of old scenes from Spiderman and episodes of Smallville but have been promised while it is meant to demonstrate the same perspective; it will incorporate a lot of effects for surrounding objects as well.

In one of the test shots for example, a ball is being thrown and the character sees it spinning slowly. As the character speeds up, the ball slows down more but still moves. Everything around the character is still moving. Eventually as full speed is realized the ball is almost to a complete stop and bright glowing bolts (kind of like lightning) start to appear and the rest of the environment is paused. The ball is grabbed by the character, and just as it is grabbed we see movement beginning to happen again, and the bolts start disappearing.

Snyder is asking the team to really push for new ways of showing speed. An assistant stated at a meeting that Snyder said pretty much word for word “ I want jaws to f***ing drop. It’s time to shake up the balance of realism, and add a bit of wow factor. People are paying money to see these super powered beings in all their glory. It has to look awesome, better than anything they have ever seen in any superhero movie. Look at the competition (Avengers), we will have characters doing things that they can’t do. It’s gotta be shown and blow people away…”

If visual effects report were true it is time for a party !!!!!

 

[georgec]

I don't think you can do BvS without addressing fallout from the events in MoS. Ignoring that would be too disjointed.

 

[Persistence]

Unless Superman is portrayed as a moron, he will inevitably display some emotions other than wide-eyed, happy-clappy optimism.

Ok, well this argument doesn't really give lot of MOS critics optimism for this film.