Is DC more progressive than Marvel?

[gildea]

Hasn't DC recently said that they have been too "white" for years?

Over the course marvel has been far superior in social and ethical issues such as this in their mainstream continuity. Cripes stan himself was very good at this sort of thing.


Dunno when the wonder woman/trevor scott thing happened by marvel has had mixed couples for years.



Are comic fans so far removed from marvel now that DC launches an obvious gimmmick (batwoman) and is seen as crusading social issues when marvel has done it for years???

 

[Sloth7d]

Are comic fans so far removed from marvel now that DC launches an obvious gimmmick (batwoman) and is seen as crusading social issues when marvel has done it for years???

Yes

 

[Varient]

It isn't usually brought up as frequently, but comic books are facing an impending boom of realism, in their storylines. With this realism, has come a greater appreciation for diversity in characters, both leading and supporting. While Marvel can be applauded for the likes of Storm and Bishop, or Sunfire, Hulkling and Wiccan, is Marvel doing it more for gimmiick (such as Ultimate Colossus) or more as a reflection of the times?

I personally feel that DC has done a far beter job of legitimately approaching minoirty groups (ethnically and socially). The story of Renee Montoya (who is latino no less) coming out to her parents in Gotham Central, was one of the best tales Greg Rucka has ever scribed. Mr.Terrifics ascention in the JSA has made him a more viable character in various DC books, including a leading role in Checkmate. Wonder Woman once dated a black man (Trevor Scott). Most recnetly, the new Batwoman is also a lesbian. More and more, we are begging to see a DC that is steadily relating their books to the current world. Many ethnic and sexual backgrounds are being approached, in a mostly tasteful manner. They even made a former lead character in Gotham Central, into the Spectre (the right hand of God), who is a prominent character and force, in the DC Universe.

Again I turn to Marvel, who isn't far behind, but seem to really have a gimmick/agenda angle in their portrayals. I need only point to Bishop and his current romance of a white woman. Now in the previous paragraph I applauded Wonder Woman for dating Trevor Scott, while I am scrutinizing Bishop's relationship. The woman with which he was involved with, is actually in charge of monitoring the mutants at the Xavier institute. Her role and ethnicity, compared to Bishops position and ethnicity, almost give the story a sort of "forbidden/mandingo fantasy" angle, in which Bishop cold be likened to a slave, that is sleeping with the plantation masters wife. Perhaps I am over stating the correlation, but it does seem that Marvel's approach/agenda, promotes a gimmick ridden view, rather than a genuine point of human interest in diversity.

I disagree.
I noticed Marvel being more "progressive" back when I first started reading comics.
Marvel was the first not to have "flighty useless women"
Marvel was the first to have racism explored via the Xmen.
Marvel Has By CHARACTER more Minority, More Gender pref individuals with names.
Marvel Stories until very recently Led DC in Telling stories close to real life.

Now - That being said:
DC has been Whooping Marvel non-stop in the Story writing over the last three years and it's only now that Marvel is starting to come back.

Peace.
V.

 

[Kitsune]

Doesn't progressive mean "taking money away from the people who earned it, and giving it to people who don't deserve it." That's how it's used in politics.

Seriously, Progressive is a buzz word, and I don't much care for it. The word implies that changes are good, and quite frankly not all changes are good. DC is the prefect example, killing off tons of prefectly good second stringers just to replace them with someone else, is not in my oppinion a step in the right direction. Especially since many of the deaths had no or little impact on the story. I know DC is trying to increase the ethnic diversity of it's universe, but I don't think killing off old characters is the way to do it.

 

[gildea]

Doesn't progressive mean "taking money away from the people who earned it, and giving it to people who don't deserve it." That's how it's used in politics.

No and it doesn't mean that in politics either.

Seriously, Progressive is a buzz word, and I don't much care for it. The word implies that changes are good, and quite frankly not all changes are good. DC is the prefect example, killing off tons of prefectly good second stringers just to replace them with someone else, is not in my oppinion a step in the right direction. Especially since many of the deaths had no or little impact on the story. I know DC is trying to increase the ethnic diversity of it's universe, but I don't think killing off old characters is the way to do it.

This I agree with.

 

[gildea]

Marvel doing it more for gimmiick (such as Ultimate Colossus) or more as a reflection of the times?

How on earth is ult colossus a gimmick?
It was hinted at in the background for years before finally being mentioned and brought to the fore. It was subtle, slow and honest. It wasn't even hyped or a big issue, we didn't have a "colossus comes out issue" we had a very slow moving background story that was rarely mentioned.

Unlike I may add the flash in the pan headline grabbing of batwoman being a "lipstick" lesbian. Actually I'd have more respect for dc if the put batwoman or renee into a less hollywood lesbian relationship than two hot women hooking up to titiltate the fanboys idea of a lesbian relationship.

 

[fifthfiend]

Doesn't progressive mean "taking money away from the people who earned it, and giving it to people who don't deserve it." That's how it's used in politics.

Nope, that's what conservative means.

Well okay, that and hating people.

... oh look there, I've Political'd all over myself, haven't I.

Well there's no turning back now. All right, Mike Foley v. The Goddamn Batman in a seducing-kiddies competition. Go!

 

[Darthphere]

I believe that both DC and Marvel have done great things in being progressive, of course both have had their gimmicks along the way, both have covered eqaul ground in the matter of race.

 

[Kitsune]

Nope, that's what conservative means.

Well okay, that and hating people.

... oh look there, I've Political'd all over myself, haven't I.

Well there's no turning back now. All right, Mike Foley v. The Goddamn Batman in a seducing-kiddies competition. Go!

Actually conservative means giving tax breaks to corperations so they will pay for your campain.

 

[Arach Knight]

I realize that Marvel has plenty of black characters. Some of them even have strong roles...but how many other ethnic characters just get tossed into the way side? How often do we see threads here on the hype, complaining about the lack of latino characters in comic books, in general(Maybe only I notice this?)? Sure there is Apocalypse, Black Panther, Storm etc etc...but what does Marvel ever do with them? Besides let Thor rip bolts of lightning through their chest? And of course i'm going to refer to Marvel currently, because the entire picture must be viewed.

I can easily point to Apocalypses Egyptian heritage, or how Black Panther is the leader of an (albeit fictional) African nation. Hell, i'll even throw in one that most don't know. There was a time when Captain America was out of commission, and Falcon dressed up as him, to help subdue some racists and rioters. But how often or how prevalent are these things, in the mainstream books? Black Panther's book was tanking so bad, that they had him marry Storm, in the hopes of boosting the books sales. I don't think that can touch on Black Lightning joining the JLA, or even the fact that he was formerly a member of an (albet corrupt) presidential cabinet.

Ultimate Colossus being gay just reeks of cliche. How easy is it to take the guy who is already soft of nature (an artist) but has the exterior of machismo (organic steel) and make him into a gay man? It's entertaining and well written, but it lacks any real drive beyond it's obvious "HERE I AM!" tactics. I give credit to Marvel, but I just feel like ethnic and minority groups, and story telling over all, are done far better at the DC camp.

Even straying away from Superhero books, DC still has the edge. Fables, Y The Last Man, Sandman, Hellblazer. They may involve fighting and preternatural beings, but their emphasis is far and away from tight wearing metropolitan types. Where are Marvel's branch out books? Oh that's right, they don't have anything. It's all tights, all the time, with backwards ass characters. As much as I love Uncanny X-Men, I was utterly disappointed to see Bishop wearing the usual hip hop thuggery atire. He is so much better than that, but apparently Marvel felt it appropriate to boot him right back to the era of stereotypes. I still like Marvel...they can tell fantastic stories. No doubt, some of the best stories in comic history, have come from the House of Ideas. But sometimes, I feel like Marvel really sags behind.

 

[Arach Knight]

I know DC is trying to increase the ethnic diversity of it's universe, but I don't think killing off old characters is the way to do it.

Sorry I couldn't hear you over that crack of lighting through Goliath's chest. And I wasn't paying attention...I was too busy seeing most of the mutant population depowered. And then I got distracted by all of those second stringers getting blown to smitherenes by a villain. Right when I was about to start listening, I saw more second stringers, being dumped into some horrible take on the phantom zone. What were you saying?

 

[Darthphere]

Sorry I couldn't hear you over that crack of lighting through Goliath's chest. And I wasn't paying attention...I was too busy seeing most of the mutant population depowered. And then I got distracted by all of those second stringers getting blown to smitherenes by a villain. Right when I was about to start listening, I saw more second stringers, being dumped into some horrible take on the phantom zone. What were you saying?

I was reading your post but I got distracted by a gunshot and saw ted Kord with a hole in his head to bring in a hispanic kid as the Blue Beetle, then I heard some sobbing and saw ray Palmer crying because they replaced him with an Asian clone of himself. I was going to keep reading but then i heard some panting and saw that renne Montoya and The Batwoman were knocking boots and got a little bit distracted. I was going to keep reading but then Superboy Prime was killing some second string Teen titans characters. Sorry i couldnt finish reading your post.

 

[cerealkiller182]

Sorry I couldn't hear you over that crack of lighting through Goliath's chest. And I wasn't paying attention...I was too busy seeing most of the mutant population depowered. And then I got distracted by all of those second stringers getting blown to smitherenes by a villain. Right when I was about to start listening, I saw more second stringers, being dumped into some horrible take on the phantom zone. What were you saying?

BURN!!!!!


I have always liked DC Comics better than Marvel. I think Batwoman as a lesbian is ok since she her story is coexistence with Montoya who couldnt be the only lesbian in the whole universe. A gimmicky lesbian couple would be Thunder and grace in the Outsiders.

 

[Sloth7d]

Sorry I couldn't hear you over that crack of lighting through Goliath's chest. And I wasn't paying attention...I was too busy seeing most of the mutant population depowered. And then I got distracted by all of those second stringers getting blown to smitherenes by a villain. Right when I was about to start listening, I saw more second stringers, being dumped into some horrible take on the phantom zone. What were you saying?

lol. Thank God for Goliath. t:
Hey can you post the rest of this? This parody was great.

 

[gildea]

Ultimate Colossus being gay just reeks of cliche. How easy is it to take the guy who is already soft of nature (an artist) but has the exterior of machismo (organic steel) and make him into a gay man? It's entertaining and well written, but it lacks any real drive beyond it's obvious "HERE I AM!" tactics. I give credit to Marvel, but I just feel like ethnic and minority groups, and story telling over all, are done far better at the DC camp.

In ultimate he's not an artist and he's not soft in nature he's and ex russian mafia member.
No cliche there you might want to be sure of the facts before claiming stuff like that.

given the length of time his sub plot has been running it seems a tad unfair to say its an obvious "here I am" thing.

I can easily point to Apocalypses Egyptian heritage, ...But how often or how prevalent are these things, in the mainstream books?

More prevelant than DC you haven't really provided many examples of DC's diversification, so far I count very few (one of which is the subject of complaints from gay action groups compared to the many others (and yourself have listed for marvel).
As for apocalypse? How about the age of apocalypse? Massive crossover which had him at the forefront.

I don't think that can touch on Black Lightning joining the JLA, or even the fact that he was formerly a member of an (albet corrupt) presidential cabinet.

How about storm leading the xmen during it's most successful run under chris claremont?
I don't think simply adding a black cast member can compete with having a strong independant black woman leading your biggest book.

And of course i'm going to refer to Marvel currently, because the entire picture must be viewed.

You might want to discuss luke cage recently married to a white woman who is having his child and is seen by practically everybody as being one of marvels top writers pet character (also joined the avengers which puts him on a par with black lightening who I might add has been treated incredibly shoddily up until just recently by DC, I could link you to his creators (tony isabellas) site where he has made several posts about dcs treatment of his creation).

Or perhaps the new blade relaunch which regardless of opinion on these boards can really only be seen as a legitmate effort given the prescence of industry legend Chaykin on board.

Come to think where are the major movies from DC to compete with the blade trilogy featuring minorty characters? Should be easy for them to make being owned by a film studio.

I give credit to Marvel, but I just feel like ethnic and minority groups, and story telling over all, are done far better at the DC camp.

You say looking at the whole picture? But where are the early stories from dc to match stans work and where are the complaints about marvels recent work from minority groups like dc has recived? DC by their OWN ADMISSION (i will search newsarama if need be) have paid very little attention to diversity up until recently which is possibly why you've noticed more at their camp just now.

*edit*
heck i searched newsarama
http://www.newsarama.com/WonderCon2006/DCU/architects.html

 

[fifthfiend]

BURN!!!!!


I have always liked DC Comics better than Marvel. I think Batwoman as a lesbian is ok since she her story is coexistence with Montoya who couldnt be the only lesbian in the whole universe.

And yet one of the only two lesbians in the universe can start knockin' boots with the only other lesbian in the universe, who is also a superhero?

Oh yeah, that's believable.

 

[Kitsune]

Sorry I couldn't hear you over that crack of lighting through Goliath's chest. And I wasn't paying attention...I was too busy seeing most of the mutant population depowered. And then I got distracted by all of those second stringers getting blown to smitherenes by a villain. Right when I was about to start listening, I saw more second stringers, being dumped into some horrible take on the phantom zone. What were you saying?

Killing off one or two characters and keeping them dead is not the same a slaughtering entire teams of hero's and then having new people take over their identities. I don't see Marvel rushing to replace the depowered mutants with new mutants.
Firestorm, Bluebeatle, everysingle memeber of the Freedom Fighters except Sam. Having someone take the name Hawkeye and steal and Ant Man suit, just isn't on the same level. I'm not agaisnt killing of characters when dramatically appropriate, but killing them off so you can replace them with someone else, seams like a gimic.

 

[Tropico]

And yet one of the only two lesbians in the universe can start knockin' boots with the only other lesbian in the universe, who is also a superhero?

Oh yeah, that's believable.

I trust you're exaggerating for the sake of sarcasm, 'cause those aren't the only 2 lesbians in the DCU.

 

[Herr Logan]

I agree. It didn't seem organic to the character. I don't know, maybe it is organic, and maybe it's just the minor media frenzy over it that makes me feel like it's a gimmick, but I just didn't feel right about it.

In general, I have always felt that DC actually sets trends, and the so-called "House of Ideas" appropriates them, claims to have come up with them, and runs them into the ground. Take special note of Marvel's rediscovered obsession with heroes fighting each other, something that was supposed to have gone out with the Silver Age, about the same time as Batman stopped being declared King Batman of The Alien Planet Xarthon every few issues. Watch for Marvel to suddenly move in the direction of DC's "Silver Age Made Realistic" ideology, which has been governing the DCU at least since the road trip arc of the Green Arrow series.

Obviously, neither of the Big Two is ever truly on the cutting edge of comics. Progressive ideas don't sell. Solo, which is pretty impressive coming from the mainline of a Big Two company, rather than a Vertigo imprint, comes literally decades after many of the artistic ideas in it were first expressed.

That aside, when examining superhero comics, particularly Big Two superhero comics, I have to say that DC is generally better because it's always felt more genuine. The theory of what Marvel was supposed to be about seems like that shouldn't be the case, but it is. Marvel has always been laughing at its fans because they can crank out buckets of **** and for some reason be hailed as the past, present, and future of superhero comics. In the 1960s the discrepancies between the script and art was literally offensive to the intellects of comics fans, yet early Marvel is still seen as classic. In the late 70s and early 80s, Marvel referred to its fans as "Marvel zombies," and the fans embraced it! If you were a Marvel fan in those days, I must ask you: why were you all so proud to be blindly allegiant to a company that was so obviously laughing at you as it took your money in exchange for fiction that a three-year-old would find shallow and flimsy?

In the 1980s and 1990s, they came up with what may be their lone original idea, "gritty realism," which was a terrible idea to begin with (see the early 90s incarnation of DC's Dr. Fate), and made it continually worse. DC gave in and followed that trend, probably their worst editorial move ever. And the entire time, Marvel was laughing all the way to the bank, making cash off of an idea that ran counter to the entire suspension-of-disbelief theory that has always been central to superhero fiction.

DC's ideas change superhero comics for the better, and their new take on Silver Age realism, especially when juxtaposed with the previous trend of gritty realism, is one of their best. Marvel's ideas make me embarrassed to read superhero fiction.

I haven't followed DC Comics over the years like I have Marvel, so I wouldn't know how it stacks up, and I don't agree with all its the points made, but I commend this post for its eloquence and central theme: so-called "realism" is killing superhero fiction.

I think Marvel Comics put out some truly great fiction during the Silver Age, regardless of whether it was or wasn't derivative of DC characters and stories. I think that X-Men comics, at least, were definitely more than "shallow and flimsy" in the late 70's and very early 80's. That along with Spider-Man comics from the 60's through the 70's are my favorite parts of Marvel history.

I am fairly familiar with Marvel Comics, having bought and read their stuff for several years and researched its mythology to a decent degree, and taken on its own merits, or just compared to its own history, I say with no hesitation that Marvel is a dissipated, cynical and corrupted shell of what it used to be, whatever you may think it used to be. I can't speak for DC's overall ratio of progressiveness to gimmickry (and it's definitely got plenty of its own gimmickry), but I can say that Marvel nowadays is pretty much nothing but gimmicks. They're pulling a "Death of Superman" type event every chance they get. The "House of Ideas" doesn't have its house in order.

I sort of wish I'd had the money to keep up with both the Marvel Universe and the DC Universe over the years I was collecting. Wait, no I don't. I wish I hadn't spent most of that money. I could probably buy a new car if I'd saved up. Now I never buy Marvel, but just read it occasionally to see the carnage unfold and watch my childhood burn to ashes.

 

[gildea]

. Now I never buy Marvel, but just read it occasionally to see the carnage unfold and watch my childhood burn to ashes.

Not trying to be pejorative but do you think it may just be possible that you've out grown superhero comics?

 

[fifthfiend]

I wish I hadn't spent most of that money. I could probably buy a new car if I'd saved up.

You'd probably have ended up blowing all of it on drugs.

 

[Herr Logan]

Not trying to be pejorative but do you think it may just be possible that you've out grown superhero comics?

That's a possibility, but even though I've grown cynical and bitter about the world in general, I've found reading certain issues from back in the Silver Age entertaining and actually intellectually stimulating. I don't see the same imagination and intelligence in today's Marvel. I certainly don't see the kind of respect for characterization and continuity. In terms of imagination, maybe that has something to do with the nature of storytelling and how there's only a few basic stories in the world, and everything now is just a combination or permutation of those, but as for the intelligence and integrity, there's just no excuse, especially for the latter. Is it unreasonable for me to compare newer writers to the likes of Stan Lee (who was verbally brilliant and genuinely likable as a writer) and Chris Claremont (when he was on top of his game... as in, not today)? Possibly, but I certainly expect more than what Brian Michael Bendis is slowly, gradually, moderately, piecemeal, imperceptibly trickling out in "decompressed" stories that are all talking heads that say nothing worthwhile and ridiculous, vicariously cathartic displays of anger and violence tht is clearly aimed at teenagers.
Above all, there is absolutely no excuse for rewriting major parts of continuity (that was created by real writers who knew how to deliver decent stories) and having superheroes acting completely out of character without being under alien mind control or whatever standard plot device allows superheroes to act out of character for very short periods of time.

Maybe Marvel comics have outgrown me. That doesn't mean I'm immature, necessarily. To me, it means that Marvel is over the hill. Tired. Wretched. That dog won't hunt no more. Like I said before, it's a dissipated (as in a dirty old man) shell of its former self. It's absolutely appalling and pathetic how desperately Marvel tries to revamp itself every year and try to seem young and fresh. It's not young and fresh. It will never be young and fresh, although it certainly is becoming more and more immature. Introducing adult subject matter doesn't make the storytelling more mature. Children in the schoolyard use curse words and talk about stuff they don't understand, too. Give me Stan Lee and all his naive, non-lethal, idealistic heroes in brightly colored costumes over "realistic" superpowered enforcers who all either work for or have to speak to SHIELD every single issue. I don't care if there's a Patriot Act in real life-- I don't need to be reminded that the government is all up in everybody's business by having Nick Fury hop out and remind everyone he knows everyone's identities or that they have to clear it with the feds first if they want to throw down with some villains.

When the world made it clear it was going to continue to suck, I took solace in Marvel Comics, because even if a lot of the battles were pointless and I didn't agree with a lot of the characters' ethical codes (I think it's stupid not to kill villains in real life, but I accept it in superhero fiction), it was fun, intelligent, creative, and not out to cheat and insult me. All Marvel Comics do now is insult me with false advertising (what they call "The Amazing Spider-Man" is neither amazing nor the real Spider-Man anymore) and absolute trash for story content. Marvel is not a source for escapism or inspiration anymore. One of us outgrew the other, and I don't care which.

 

[Herr Logan]

You'd probably have ended up blowing all of it on drugs.

Absolutely. Comics kept me off the street, man. Now what are the young-un's gonna do to stay out of trouble?

 

[Darthphere]

Absolutely. Comics kept me off the street, man. Now what are the young-un's gonna do to stay out of trouble?

Its funny, my mom is always nagging that I spend too much money on comics, I always tell her I could be like the other kids and spend it all on drugs and beer. It keeps her quiet for a couple of days.

 

[fifthfiend]

What's funny is I stopped buying comics, and now I do spend all my money on drugs and beer.