Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[Marvin]

The Avengers showed that none of them could have won the final battle if they had not teamed up with each other.

However, if we get a scenario in this film where when Superman arrives, he's able to defeat Stepp on his own without the help of the others then that's going to make the rest of the team look bad.

Well at least u get the first scenario. As for ur other thing, superman is the strongest and people get that, superman fans certainly do.
People understand that if the zod invasion happened and any other one hero had to face it(marvel or dc imo) they would have all been stomped. That basic realization means we accept this reality that he can fight people alone the others cant. I mean in the comics doomsday walked through the league before falling to superman in one on one unarmed combat.

This sort of thing happens regularly in the comics in my experience, particularly when superman is..'delayed'.

Spoiler

Point being, something out of nothing.

Then I look forward to hearing all the new excuses if it pans out like that.

I'm sure u do.
If so the point still stands, he completed his arc and became superman, like the jesus allegory suggests, resurrection and the rest of his days as a happy savior with the people on his side.

 

[Herolee10]

I hear this type of talk a lot that we should just be happy this stuff exists. I disagree, I don't think it's entitled to ask for respect and care to be given to ensure the characters reflect how they traditionally have been.

Agreed. And I really do feel for fans of Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern, since I know there are definitely a lot of people who wanted to see them in a JL film as well.

However, since Superman is actually in the film, I wish that they would have done him better justice. Honestly, I don't think I can really consider myself a fan of the character anymore. I'm too burned out from broken promises and piss poor representation. I'm tired of people saying that "well I'm sure it'll be better the next time". I've been getting that crap ever since MOS was met with mixed reception.

Why should I have to wait for another JL film to see Superman actually be involved with the JL?

If they aren't going to show him in trailers, then at least promote him in the posters. Why does Warner Bros have to be a dick about it and shun him from both materials? What's worse is that they allow him to show up on Pop corn and Soda cups but not on the theatrical posters.

 

[Herolee10]

If anything, this whole experience has shown that Superman does not work in a shared universe.

Bringing Superman into a shared universe was without a doubt, the single biggest mistake for the character at the moment. The character has suffered for it and has not benefited from being a part of this shared universe in ANY way.

 

[Marvin]

If anything, this whole experience has shown that me Superman does not work in a shared universe.

fixed

 

[vantheman77]

If anything, this whole experience has shown that Superman does not work in a shared universe.

Bringing Superman into a shared universe was without a doubt, the single biggest mistake for the character at the moment. The character has suffered for it and has not benefited from being a part of this shared universe in ANY way.

I wonder if the producers have come to that same conclusion as well.

The same can be said about Supergirl concerning last year's mega-crossover.

 

[Herolee10]

I wonder if the producers have come to that same conclusion as well.

The same can be said about Supergirl concerning last year's mega-crossover.

I don't know about Supergirl because I think the only reason why she didn't fit in as well like everyone else was because she was added to the story very late in the game since they weren't sure if they would be able to get her from CBS to the CW in time.

 

[batfreakforever]

If anything, this whole experience has shown that Superman does not work in a shared universe.

Bringing Superman into a shared universe was without a doubt, the single biggest mistake for the character at the moment. The character has suffered for it and has not benefited from being a part of this shared universe in ANY way.

That is were you are dead wrong. Superman died in BvS because they wanted to show you how much the Earth and its defenders NEED Superman.
They will introduced many hero's but Superman is what they need to save the Earth in Justice League.

Just because Superman isnt on screen from the start of JL doesnt mean that they just discarded him to make others shine. Superman is needed and the sooner you realise what the filmmakers intentions are which is to show how and why Superman is the greatest hero of the DC Universe and will be the core of the film even tho he wont be on screen for most of the film or in the promos.

We need to feel the loss of Superman. This is one of the driving forces to bring the JL together apart from stopping Steppenwolf.

This film will be a love letter to Superman.

The character hasnt suffered anything from killing him or being in a shared universe. Just because its different from what come before in comics or animation etc doesnt mean its wrong. Pay attention to the details and realise that Superman is loved and respected in this DC Universe.

 

[Herolee10]

That is were you are dead wrong. Superman died in BvS because they wanted to show you how much the Earth and its defenders NEED Superman.
They will introduced many hero's but Superman is what they need to save the Earth in Justice League.

Just because Superman isnt on screen from the start of JL doesnt mean that they just discarded him to make others shine. Superman is needed and the sooner you realise what the filmmakers intentions are which is to show how and why Superman is the greatest hero of the DC Universe and will be the core of the film even tho he wont be on screen for most of the film or in the promos.

We need to feel the loss of Superman. This is one of the driving forces to bring the JL together apart from stopping Steppenwolf.

This film will be a love letter to Superman.

The character hasnt suffered anything from killing him or being in a shared universe. Just because its different from what come before in comics or animation etc doesnt mean its wrong. Pay attention to the details and realise that Superman is loved and respected in this DC Universe.

I get that Superman's absence needs to be felt at the beginning of the film to make a impact/statement. I totally get and understand that concept. I'm not saying that Superman should show up in the first act of the film.

My beef here is that we'll be missing out on a lot of stuff involving Superman that makes ensemble films like this work. Whenever you have big ensemble films, one of the most exciting and important scenes is seeing the entire group interact with each other and plan things out on how they're going to accomplish their goals.

Chances are that we won't be getting any of that involving Superman in this film. Also, look at how Superman has been intentionally absent from even the freaking posters and marketing materials. If this is a "Love Letter" to Superman, then why would you exclude him from the posters? Does that make sense? Him being absent from them doesn't build excitement or mystery at all. It builds resentment and irritation.

Frankly, I really don't care so much about the aspect of the impact that superman has made. JL has always been a film about ALL of these heroes coming together as a team to accomplish what no single hero could do. Superman possibly showing up at the last scene to help doesn't really accomplish that.

 

[samsnee]

The fact they use his S logo in a poster but don't actually show him is the dumbest thing. He should be front and center.

 

[Iceman]

Superman doesn't work in a shared universe? So all the JL comics I've spent my life reading are a load of ****e? t:

Superman doesn't work but somehow Thor and WW work fine.

 

[AnneFan]

Superman doesn't work in a shared universe? So all the JL comics I've spent my life reading are a load of ****e? t:

Superman doesn't work but somehow Thor and WW work fine.

Yep. Superman works fine in shared universes.

 

[Trevor]

Superman doesn't work in a shared universe? So all the JL comics I've spent my life reading are a load of ****e? t:

Superman doesn't work but somehow Thor and WW work fine.

 

[metaphysician]

And if it does end that way that's hardly an arc that's going to go into any real depth. There's been all this talk of this trilogy being this grand Superman arc. How do you have such an epic arc if the character is not present for most of the final act?

Well, it kind of fits with the arc, what with him lacking the recognizable character of Superman in the first and second acts, too.

I think what irks me much more if the use of him in the trailer, not his absence. Pretending that this Superman has been a vast inspirational figure of hope is lying to the audience. "Hanging morosely in the distance while people worship you" is not "inspiring hope", and that's the closest he's come so far. Either he spent a ton of time interacting positively with people solely off-screen, or the trailer is just trying to sub in the iconic Superman for the one the movies have actually provided.

 

[metaphysician]

Some have also argued this is the most comic accurate Batman ever on film, despite the fact he's acted almost in stark contrast to what Batman traditionally has in the comics and other media.

Some people care far, far more about visual fidelity than fidelity of character and theme. If they look correct, that matters more than how they actually act.

 

[The Batman]

Some people care far, far more about visual fidelity than fidelity of character and theme. If they look correct, that matters more than how they actually act.

Which is why a vocal minority will crap on Bale for his outfit or fighting skills or how his Gotham looks, even though he's far closer to the spirit of Batman than Affleck has been so far.

 

[storyteller]

So I wasn't hurt by MOS or BVS, I loved those flicks.

Now I dislike the lack of promotional material. I felt the recent Alex Ross posters was like a middle finger.

The trailer though is all about Superman. The music playing throughout is a variation of his theme song from MOS. If they aren't talking about Superman then his theme is playing.

 

[metaphysician]

If anything, this whole experience has shown that Superman does not work in a shared universe.

Bringing Superman into a shared universe was without a doubt, the single biggest mistake for the character at the moment. The character has suffered for it and has not benefited from being a part of this shared universe in ANY way.

Nah, I don't think that says anything intrinsic about Superman and shared universes. All it really says is that the DCEU has horribly mishandled Superman. Given that its horribly mishandled a *lot* of stuff, this is not shocking.

Or to put differently: given how Superman has been portrayed and used so far, would he really have come off that much better in a MoS trilogy written and directed by the same people with the same sensibilities? Sure, he wouldn't get shoved out by Batman in the sequel, but almost all the same theme beats would work with Lex Luther. So instead of a morose, uncharismatic, distant Superman dying somewhat randomly at the end of BvS, you have a morose, uncharismatic, distant Superman winning the final fight. . . and still being morose, uncharismatic, and distant. More Superman, but probably not better Superman.

 

[metaphysician]

I don't know about Supergirl because I think the only reason why she didn't fit in as well like everyone else was because she was added to the story very late in the game since they weren't sure if they would be able to get her from CBS to the CW in time.

Yeah. I mean, they played up the power level issue as something to intentionally make her not fit, but that didn't really even make sense, anyway. The Arrowverse already has a whole bunch of powerful superheroes, quite a few of which they basically nerfed or shuffled offstage in order to make the "Unstoppable Supergirl" subplot not look totally silly.

 

[metaphysician]

I get that Superman's absence needs to be felt at the beginning of the film to make a impact/statement. I totally get and understand that concept. I'm not saying that Superman should show up in the first act of the film.

My beef here is that we'll be missing out on a lot of stuff involving Superman that makes ensemble films like this work. Whenever you have big ensemble films, one of the most exciting and important scenes is seeing the entire group interact with each other and plan things out on how they're going to accomplish their goals.

Chances are that we won't be getting any of that involving Superman in this film. Also, look at how Superman has been intentionally absent from even the freaking posters and marketing materials. If this is a "Love Letter" to Superman, then why would you exclude him from the posters? Does that make sense? Him being absent from them doesn't build excitement or mystery at all. It builds resentment and irritation.

Frankly, I really don't care so much about the aspect of the impact that superman has made. JL has always been a film about ALL of these heroes coming together as a team to accomplish what no single hero could do. Superman possibly showing up at the last scene to help doesn't really accomplish that.

I think there's a simpler answer: yes, Superman has to be absent in JL because he died in BvS. This is true. Its also *not an excuse*. The movie doesn't get a pass for a bad decision, just because it was mandated by the prior movie's bad decision. This is exactly why most people assumed there was no way they'd kill Superman in BvS, since its a terrible idea that would screw up Justice League.

 

[Marvin]

Some people care far, far more about visual fidelity than fidelity of character and theme. If they look correct, that matters more than how they actually act.

and some people use fidelity to grade a thing specifically designed to show an accurate character acting out of character. It's like complaining that days of future past got Xavier wrong.

As for superman, it's actually pretty easy to see.
Then again i'm one who believes even tony the prick stark is spiderman's biggest inspiration at the moment. Humans aren't one dimensional, not in how they inspire or are inspired. That our gods throughout history, inspire us to be better/greater/what have you, and we've never done a thing past worship them from a distance puts this whole thing to bed, and that's just the start.

 

[DerekLake]

If anything, this whole experience has shown that Superman does not work in a shared universe.

Bringing Superman into a shared universe was without a doubt, the single biggest mistake for the character at the moment. The character has suffered for it and has not benefited from being a part of this shared universe in ANY way.

I think putting Superman in a shared universe is actually what he's been missing. Up until now (including BvS), Superman has been the ONLY superhero in his cinematic appearances. The result of that was seven films in which Superman needed to be an omnipotent, omnipresent Jesus figure because he had to be everywhere and save everyone. That limited approach is what has produced the static cinematic character we now have, and it is directly responsible for BvS's critical approach to that particular idea.

In a shared universe, however, Superman does not need to be treated like a deity; the idea of his omnipotence/omnipresence doesn't need to be challenged or defended. He is actually free to just be the best superhero.

No, these films don't show that Superman doesn't work in a shared universe; they show that it is necessary for him to be in one.

Nah, I don't think that says anything intrinsic about Superman and shared universes. All it really says is that the DCEU has horribly mishandled Superman. Given that its horribly mishandled a *lot* of stuff, this is not shocking.

Or to put differently: given how Superman has been portrayed and used so far, would he really have come off that much better in a MoS trilogy written and directed by the same people with the same sensibilities? Sure, he wouldn't get shoved out by Batman in the sequel, but almost all the same theme beats would work with Lex Luther. So instead of a morose, uncharismatic, distant Superman dying somewhat randomly at the end of BvS, you have a morose, uncharismatic, distant Superman winning the final fight. . . and still being morose, uncharismatic, and distant. More Superman, but probably not better Superman.

I do think that Superman has been mishandled, but primarily in BvS, where Snyder was, among other things, trying to dispel the idea that Superman is in fact an omnipotent Jesus figure. That was, I believe, the wrong approach to the character (MOS's dominant alien foster kid turned messianic savior was a much better, approach than BvS's heavy-handed foreign transcendent deity).

I am hoping that JL rights the ship with Superman. Bruce's line about Superman showing people their better selves might not be accurate given what Superman hasn't done the past two films, but it's precisely the way he should have been characterized, and therefore I welcome it.

Some people care far, far more about visual fidelity than fidelity of character and theme. If they look correct, that matters more than how they actually act.

And perhaps a few of us care equally strongly about both.

 

[Flint Marko]

The trailer endlessly smacking us over the head about how important Superman is just feels so hollow.

 

[STARMAN]

I'd like to see at least one Joss Whedon written Superman scene. I was not crazy about Terrio's dialogue the last time around other than Clark's brief back and forth with Perry over journalistic integrity.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'd like to see at least one Joss Whedon written Superman scene. I was not crazy about Terrio's dialogue the last time around other than Clark's brief back and forth with Perry over journalistic integrity.

Whedon writing a Superman scene is exactly what I want.

I said that a while back and people were eager to point out that Whedon is just doing minimal reshoots and that it's still Snyder's movie. Like I said then: you don't bring on Joss Whedon to just point and shoot someone else's movie. Whedon is a good writer who knows character, which has been a gaping hole in the DCEU.

If I hear he's finally able to get Superman right, I'll watch the movie.

 

[STARMAN]

The only part of the reshoots I'm paying attention to is when Cavill shows up. Roven mentioned working around Henry and Amy's schedule. I'm figuring it happens by mid August or not at all.