Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[jmc]

You were shown, there are clear scenes where his effect is the topic. Change your complaint to "I don't like how we're shown" and you've got a valid point, but saying "We weren't shown anything" is the actual copout.

We do see it, multiple times, and from the perspectives of a number of characters of varying importance - and it's clear that as a city/world Metropolis/earth value Superman and have seen his positive impact. Just because it wasn't in the boy scout stopping muggings and saving cats out of trees way doesn't mean it wasn't there. The entire arc of BvS (whatever complaints people have of the execution, which was flawed) was about Superman bringing Batman to some kind of redemption and a change of course. That's a clear effect of engaging with Superman and changing as a result of his example.

A clear trend on this forum is people denying it happened just because they dislike how it happened.

I actually did say imagery was shown so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

[FunkMiller]

I wonder how much Superman will be in the film under both Snyder and Whedon instead of just Snyder.

Probably not much more, but he's likely to be more of a character, rather than a plot device.

 

[DeadPresident]

I actually did say imagery was shown so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Which is why I continued that specific part of my post with "Change your complaint to I don't like how I was shown" and it'll be more accurate.

Ever since MoS, where Clark was a kid, humanity has reacted in different ways to his powers. Ever since he saved kids from the school bus and Pete as a kid befriended him, and supported him when the bullies pull him out of the car, we've seen that there have been characters in the universe that regard him positively, and see him as some kind of beacon. Just because the split is 50/50 in the fictional universe doesn't mean it isn't there.

The biggest complaint seems to stem from the implicit notion that Superman hasn't been universally loved in the DCEU by the public/other characters like he is in a lot of source material. I believe that dichotomy is the entire point of exploring Superman in the way Snyder has. People just blurting out "B-b-b-but it makes no sense!" need to just admit they don't like how it's done, not that it doesn't make sense. It makes complete sense, Superman, in this universe (and likely in theoretical reality) is an incredibly divisive character, and we see that in how he's treated. For some he's a messiah, for others something else.

 

[Marvin]

We as the audience have to feel it too, You can't just tell us in world that how he's been received, you actually have to show us otherwise it comes across as hollow. I know what people will say, that there are moments that show he has some type of positive effect, but they are are momentary images that are offset by contrary actions and words from the character himself. To say in the fictional world it all makes sense is a cop out if we the audience aren't allowed to see it also, otherwise you could excuse every bad creative choice in every bad movie.

I personally disagree. You don't have to show us diddly if you provide an exposition as to the state of mind of the world. You could for example exposition that babe ruth was this that and the next thing to people and have your movie move forward from there. But that's all beside the point for...

They showed plenty of it's effect to us, but just like the simple act of superman saving people that seems to be a subjective thing with, we here the audience of the decu. We see plenty how he's been received. I'd poignantly point out that we even see the main villain explain a motivation directly tied to his own and the worlds reception of the superman and how he wants to show them that superman is not worthy of the pedestal they have put him on. Not a god to look up to but a fallible man that is not all good or all powerful Of course that would take getting luthors motivation to begin with.

And yes the monuments(both of them) and the vigils and all of it. It actually hits us over the head. As an example we don't see any of this for say 'black widow' or..batman. Alas it's not there for you, which would be far more accurate a description. To which the response, they can't cater to everyone personal needs of observation.

Offset by contrary action and words though? When?
I'm told he never spoke to the public. And all they saw of him was 3 years of saving people and saving the world and self sacrificing in death.
Surely u don't mean something like the africa set up that was likely later exposed by lois in a puff piece? Cause even someone like Cap(a war criminal i hear) has their scandals here and there. Right down to standing up to the senate.

 

[Iceman]

I was referring to the DCEU and live action film's in general, not the comics or other medium.

I know. There's tonnes of easily transferable JL and DC comics universe stories featuring Superman that could be applied to a cinematic universe with little difficulty. Even to your tastes surely if all the things you complained about hadn't been chosen as the way to go then it could have worked for you too? Just because they chose a path you (and many/most others) didn't like doesn't mean that Superman can't work in a cinematic universe. I think Thor was a harder character to integrate than Superman is. Wonder Woman and Aquaman aren't particularly easier either IMO.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Offset by contrary action and words though? When?

I have to say I agree with jmc.

For me there was just so much discourse about people being afraid of him, people wanting him to pay for the damage he was causing, people thinking he was above them in a negative way - it completely out weighed any sense of hope or inspiration that would give the current theme in the Justice League trailer any weight.

Did he bring out the best in Wally Keefe? Or the people giving witness statements against in him the courtroom?

I didn't really see anyone do anything good on the basis that they were inspired by Superman or that he brought out their better selves other than Batman.

 

[Herolee10]

Well that's sort of what I mean... The Green Ranger wasn't one of the original members either, he was used by Rita Repulsa. But he earned his way into the group by saving their asses over and over again and even proved he was a better leader than the Red Ranger eventually.

It's not the way i'd have ever gone, but if he comes out looking like he's clearly the best of all of them, maybe I won't hate it.

Eh, well regardless of how good that he may end up looking, the fact that he isn't a real member is what's insulting here.

They've really made him into the ultimate loner here. Frankly, when you look at it this way, It's no wonder why he isn't promoted with the rest, because he isn't an actual member.

I just wish that they would have clarified this beforehand instead of saying b.s. stuff on how there isn't a JL without Superman. So many lies.

I really miss when it used to be a lot more simple like when we were following MOS back in 2012-2013.

I wonder how much Superman will be in the film under both Snyder and Whedon instead of just Snyder.

0% for Whedon because I read that they were pretty much done with re-shoots and Cahill has been stuck filming for his other movie.

 

[DeadPresident]

I think for me there was just so much discourse about people being afraid of him, people wanting him to pay for the damage he was causing, people thinking he was above them in a negative way - it completely out weighed any sense of hope or inspiration that would give the current theme in the Justice League trailer any weight.

If you go back and watch MoS and BvS carefully are you sure you wouldn't find an even split of both, people who regard him as their savior as well as those who want him to pay for his actions?

IMO the fans who complain the most about his characterization and usage in the DCEU are the ones who are used to Superman being loved by everybody in source material, and they're fixating on the DCEU elements that question and shun Superman while not recognizing the substantial number of moments explicitly shown or through exposition where Superman is clearly loved. Again, this was the entire point of Snyder's exploration of Superman, he said it a dozen times during the MoS press junkets, he wanted to explore how the world would react if a super powered alien really did make himself known.

Most people are just salty Superman is worshipped and loved by only half of humanity instead of all of it like in comics or cartoons, but they like to try and tell us nobody reveres or looks up to him in the DCEU.

 

[STARMAN]

It's always good to see Hopefuldreamer around these threads.

 

[Herolee10]

I know. There's tonnes of easily transferable JL and DC comics universe stories featuring Superman that could be applied to a cinematic universe with little difficulty. Even to your tastes surely if all the things you complained about hadn't been chosen as the way to go then it could have worked for you too? Just because they chose a path you (and many/most others) didn't like doesn't mean that Superman can't work in a cinematic universe. I think Thor was a harder character to integrate than Superman is. Wonder Woman and Aquaman aren't particularly easier either IMO.

The only ones who have benefited from being a cinematic universe are the actual justice league members.

Batman got to kick Superman's ass, delivered a crippling blow to Lex Luther, took on Doomsday, and is now the leader of the JL alongside WW.

Everyone else have gotten great exposure from being in these film's, which will reach its greatest height when we get to this movie.

Superman was the only one kept in the dark about the existence of meta humans. He only had like one dialogue exchange with WW and barely said anything to Batman.

Two of his films, which were supposed to be a part of his trilogy, was hijacked by everyone else.

And even when he comes back, he won't be an actual member of the group and his only action scene in JL will probably be very short be a use he arrives so late in the finale.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'm assuming Lois, Bruce and Martha laid all those wreathes and flowers and candles down, right?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Eh, well regardless of how good that he may end up looking, the fact that he isn't a real member is what's insulting here.

They've really made him into the ultimate loner here. Frankly, when you look at it this way, It's no wonder why he isn't promoted with the rest, because he isn't an actual member.

I just wish that they would have clarified this beforehand instead of saying b.s. stuff on how there isn't a JL without Superman. So many lies.

I really miss when it used to be a lot more simple like when we were following MOS back in 2012-2013.

When the entire reboot was a beautiful dreams? Ah yeah... those were some good times

And yeah, I agree, I don't like him being the outsider of the group either, but I guess it's just all consequences of the direction they've taken so far in general.

I mean, i'm not sure the Superman we've seen so far in MOS and BvS would have made a good centre man for the JL...

If you go back and watch MoS and BvS carefully are you sure you wouldn't find an even split of both, people who regard him as their savior as well as those who want him to pay for his actions?

Yeah, i've watched it enough times to know how it comes across to me... which is wildly weighted to doubt, fear and rejection.

IMO the fans who complain the most about his characterization and usage in the DCEU are the ones who are used to Superman being loved by everybody in source material, and they're fixating on the DCEU elements that question and shun Superman while not recognizing the substantial number of moments explicitly shown or through exposition where Superman is clearly loved. Again, this was the entire point of Snyder's exploration of Superman, he said it a dozen times during the MoS press junkets, he wanted to explore how the world would react if a super powered alien really did make himself known.

Most people are just salty Superman is worshipped and loved by only half of humanity instead of all of it like in comics or cartoons, but they like to try and tell us nobody reveres or looks up to him in the DCEU.

Could you name these moments where he is shown to be loved?

And I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the only balance for a fan like myself is to swing wildly the other way and have no nay sayers at all.

I find it greatly interesting when doubt regarding Superman is explored.. that's why 'What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American way' is so great...

It's always good to see Hopefuldreamer around these threads.

Hey, thanks

 

[Herolee10]

The funny thing is, no matter how bad SR was, no matter how many stupid decisions were made for Smallville, it never really put a damper of my ability to still be a fan of Superman's. But the DCEU has pretty much killed most of that enjoyment where I'm hoping that I will find sever reasons to jump ship and start following the Flash or Aquaman.

I actually hate being a fan of Superman period.

2017 has been the worst year for superman.

He was fed to extreme feminists in Supergirl so that he could be used to prop up their titular character.

He was ruined completely in "Injustice 2" where he was beyond hope of redeeming and where Batman was made to look the better man.

And now here we are at JL where he is the outsider of the group and where most people are perfectly okay with seeing him just have one good moment in a film where every other hero will have several throughout it.

 

[DeadPresident]

Yeah, i've watched it enough times to know how it comes across to me... which is wildly weighted to doubt, fear and rejection.

From some in the universe, the way you and others paint it everyone feared him in MoS.

Could you name these moments where he is shown to be loved?

And I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the only balance for a fan like myself is to swing wildly the other way and have no nay sayers at all.

I find it greatly interesting when doubt regarding Superman is explored.. that's why 'What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American way' is so great...

Pete after the bullies confront Clark. Every moment with Lois, when she interviews some of the people who interacted with Clark when miraculous things happened they had respect for him, the soldiers after he saves them? The assistant to the general with all her quips about him being hot. In BvS there are a few, the young kid and his mom in the apartment, the people in disaster areas who paint his symbol on their roof, the Day of the Dead gatherers, in the end Bruce. Many might not qualify as "loved" him, but there's everything ranging from reverence to respect to infatuation.

Clearly this notion that "everyone feared, doubted, rejected, hated" him is way overplayed and it's become a lie on these boards that has been told so many times it's now seen as the truth, when really, the truth is that it's basically 50/50, which I assume is the point in Snyder's narrative.

 

[BH/HHH]

 

[Superherofan123]

Herolee, come on. Let's wait till the movie is out to pass judgement.

 

[Herolee10]

Herolee, come on. Let's wait till the movie is out to pass judgement.

I wish I could but there are just too many warning signs for me to make the same mistake of going with the wait and see approach.

No posters. No footage. No actual membership in the League.

What is there to look forward to any more? And I have no desire to wait for a sequel to see things done right when it isn't even guaranteed that it will be done right in the sequel. I just hate being a fan of Superman now.

The only reason why I might watch this film is to get closure from MOS.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

The funny thing is, no matter how bad SR was, no matter how many stupid decisions were made for Smallville, it never really put a damper of my ability to still be a fan of Superman's. But the DCEU has pretty much killed most of that enjoyment where I'm hoping that I will find sever reasons to jump ship and start following the Flash or Aquaman.

I actually hate being a fan of Superman period.

2017 has been the worst year for superman.

He was fed to extreme feminists in Supergirl so that he could be used to prop up their titular character.

He was ruined completely in "Injustice 2" where he was beyond hope of redeeming and where Batman was made to look the better man.

And now here we are at JL where he is the outsider of the group and where most people are perfectly okay with seeing him just have one good moment in a film where every other hero will have several throughout it.

I guess it depends how much enjoyment you get from re watching/reading things you love over and over. I've been doing it since I was a kid, I never ever get bored of it, so it's not essential for me to have the new stuff be any good... I will always have the parts of Superman that I love, nothing can ever erase them.

It's sad thinking that this generation will probably never understand the reasons that I love him, but it's still all there in my heart and I can rant about it until the cows come home to anyone who will listen lol

 

[Marvin]

I have to say I agree with jmc.

For me there was just so much discourse about people being afraid of him, people wanting him to pay for the damage he was causing, people thinking he was above them in a negative way - it completely out weighed any sense of hope or inspiration that would give the current theme in the Justice League trailer any weight.

Did he bring out the best in Wally Keefe? Or the people giving witness statements against in him the courtroom?

I didn't really see anyone do anything good on the basis that they were inspired by Superman or that he brought out their better selves other than Batman.

Ignoring that just about all those people giving witness statements were put there in some fashion by (the effective villain) Lex, including Wally, who himself was actually failed by bruce. I ignore their sentiments cause they are few, they are duressed and they are manipulated.
Assuming you did see people talking of fear and damages and even if you felt it outweighed the opposite. The fact of the matter is that the opposite is there and bruce is putting forth and arguing his valid opinion based on his very intimate experience on the matter. That alone justifies it. That it's a characters view point, not the trailer man(narrator) explaining it to us.

I've said this before but right now I can talk about the sheer beautiful inspiration Michael Jackson had on me and the world. One could also outweigh that by all the perverted controversy and scandal and drugs and surgery that tormented his career but that doesn't make the former statement any less valid. MJ may be the most inspirational figure in entertainment history and he touched alot of people(even stranger things apparently). The amount of talking heads saturating say fox news(like in mos) debating the matter is noise.

It is nice to see u back. I just popped in a week ago, looking to pop out imminently.

 

[Marvin]

The funny thing is, no matter how bad SR was, no matter how many stupid decisions were made for Smallville, it never really put a damper of my ability to still be a fan of Superman's. But the DCEU has pretty much killed most of that enjoyment where I'm hoping that I will find sever reasons to jump ship and start following the Flash or Aquaman.

I actually hate being a fan of Superman period.

2017 has been the worst year for superman.

He's has worse years. You're hyperbole is at it's climax I feel.

He's had years where he was entirely forgotten. I actually he hasn't been this relevant in the mainstream in some good time, maybe since 93 even.

As for him losing a fan like you to other chacters, that would be a shame.
But yea man, maybe go spread the love to some of these other cats, always fun.

 

[jmc]

Which is why I continued that specific part of my post with "Change your complaint to I don't like how I was shown" and it'll be more accurate.

Ever since MoS, where Clark was a kid, humanity has reacted in different ways to his powers. Ever since he saved kids from the school bus and Pete as a kid befriended him, and supported him when the bullies pull him out of the car, we've seen that there have been characters in the universe that regard him positively, and see him as some kind of beacon. Just because the split is 50/50 in the fictional universe doesn't mean it isn't there.

The biggest complaint seems to stem from the implicit notion that Superman hasn't been universally loved in the DCEU by the public/other characters like he is in a lot of source material. I believe that dichotomy is the entire point of exploring Superman in the way Snyder has. People just blurting out "B-b-b-but it makes no sense!" need to just admit they don't like how it's done, not that it doesn't make sense. It makes complete sense, Superman, in this universe (and likely in theoretical reality) is an incredibly divisive character, and we see that in how he's treated. For some he's a messiah, for others something else.

I'll tell you why it doesn't makes sense from a story telling perspective. Removing the Superman element entirely the story is constantly questioning a character and what his worth is without putting up much of a counter arguement as to why he is actually needed. A few shots here and there of monuments and worshiping extras doesn't offset the fact the character himself doesn't do or say much to give a counter argument to the questions posed upon him, in fact his words and actions sometimes confirm the worst of those questions. Other times given the chance to speak he is shut down. So what you've got here is a complete imbalance of characterisation. If you want to do a divisive character, which I don't agree with for this character but regardless, then you need to have the balance right, the problem is this particular character isn't balanced right, his own words often confirm the negative aspects that others see him as having, turning him from a divisive character to a more negative character. For for a film allegedly about heroes that's an issue, because you're asking the audience to buy into the idea of this person being a hero without providing them with much ground to do so. Again, this is taking the whole Superman mythological out of the equation and just looking at this from a basic story telling perspective.

 

[Marvin]

^ Superman doesn't speak to them so what he says(mainly to us) is irrelevant.
Moreover it's about his actions, not his words.

As for who he is, we all know he's a good man.
If he was in fact a bad man and all this was happening..that would be neat.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Pete after the bullies confront Clark. Every moment with Lois, when she interviews some of the people who interacted with Clark when miraculous things happened they had respect for him, the soldiers after he saves them? The assistant to the general with all her quips about him being hot. In BvS there are a few, the young kid and his mom in the apartment, the people in disaster areas who paint his symbol on their roof, the Day of the Dead gatherers, in the end Bruce. Many might not qualify as "loved" him, but there's everything ranging from reverence to respect to infatuation.

Clearly this notion that "everyone feared, doubted, rejected, hated" him is way overplayed and it's become a lie on these boards that has been told so many times it's now seen as the truth, when really, the truth is that it's basically 50/50, which I assume is the point in Snyder's narrative.

I don't know what's been said by other people, but I very clearly have not said 'everyone' so i'd appreciate it if you'd stop pulling the arguement in that direction. Of course there are people who were on his side, wanted him around, appreciated that he was trying to help...

But when I watch the film, I find the examples you've given are anything but inspiring or full of hope - I find them shrouded in fear and in the 'grungy/dark' that Snyder likes...

People paint his symbol on their roof so he can save them... and he hovers above them ominously with a discussion about him being a god and above us in the background...

And that Day of the Dead scene... that was just creepy. People looked desperate, Superman looked morbid and uncomfortable...

Where are the moments that show him being a 'Beacon to the world' and 'not just saving people, but making them see the best parts of themselves?' (as stated in the JL trailer)

I agree, he brought out the best in Bruce and Lois (and to some extent the soldiers he fought with in MOS). But we're talking about how he was shown to effect the people he saved, and I think Bruce's statement is hollow because I saw nothing of the sort.

And I guess it makes me sad/mad because that statement kind of sums up everything I love about Superman and highlights the fact that it's been seriously missing from the franchise so far...

When I watch the opening of the trailer with Wonder Woman saving the people from a bank robbery, it makes me wanna yell out 'Why couldn't we have seen Superman do something like that?'. Not hovering over people from a distance or being surrounded by mobs of worshippers... not some rushed compilation of somber saves in the context of political debate about his usefulness. Just a real scene of him saving real people, hopefully ending with them expressing some form of gratitude...

Or even further, how great it would have been to see him actually speak at the court and SAY SOMETHING INSPIRING rather than have it blow up in his face, causing more brooding and fear and doubt...

 

[misslane38]

I just wanted to pop in and say that I agree with DeadPresident and Marvin. Very well said and supported, you two.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'll tell you why it doesn't makes sense from a story telling perspective. Removing the Superman element entirely the story is constantly questioning a character and what his worth is without putting up much of a counter arguement as to why he is actually needed. A few shots here and there of monuments and worshiping extras doesn't offset the fact the character himself doesn't do or say much to give a counter argument to the questions posed upon him, in fact his words and actions sometimes confirm the worst of those questions. Other times given the chance to speak he is shut down. So what you've got here is a complete imbalance of characterisation. If you want to do a divisive character, which I don't agree with for this character but regardless, then you need to have the balance right, the problem is this particular character isn't balanced right, his own words often confirm the negative aspects that others see him as having, turning him from a divisive character to a more negative character. For for a film allegedly about heroes that's an issue, because you're asking the audience to buy into the idea of this person being a hero without providing them with much ground to do so. Again, this is taking the whole Superman mythological out of the equation and just looking at this from a basic story telling perspective.

I don't understand how that's logical, considering that just from a nuts and bolts story perspective Superman was quite literally needed in MoS to stop Zod from killing humanity and in BvS stopping Doomsday from killing humanity, so he was needed and instrumental to humanity's existence, no?

I mean I don't understand how much more needs to be shown about how the world needs Superman than twice he was the very reason humanity still exists in the universe, in the second instance he had to die to save everyone else. It's so on the nose and blatant I genuinely struggle to see how people can justify their comments that he's just a spectator in the DCEU?

He has doubts about himself, I don't see how that qualifies as "confirming the negative others see in him" - especially not when his own actions are so completely opposite to those doubts or fears certain parts of humanity have.