Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[hopefuldreamer]

Thanks?

I mean it, if it's possible for people to interpret the film in such a beautiful way, that's only ever a good thing for the character

All I ever saw with Pete was him helping Clark up after being shoved about and looking at him in pity rather than friendship. Then when Lois came to Smallville to question him about Clark, it looked like he gave her his mother's home address which seemed like him giving up Clark's secret to me! - I don't think I've ever noticed him standing by Martha's side at the funeral, makes me want to go back and watch it again and see if I can see it through your eyes!

 

[Flemm]

You need to stop conflating fiction with reality.

I'm not conflating anything, but rather pointing out an obvious dissonance between the in-universe story and the audience's perception of it.

Analyzing the fiction without thinking about the audience's response to it is a pointless activity.

That's why the pages and pages of fan analysis of something like BvS don't amount to anything: they can never explain away the disconnect with the audience.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

To answer the thread title ONCE AND FOR ALL. I want the people that think Big Blue is "getting the shaft" to let this sink in. The JUSTICE LEAGUE THEME, you know the one from the trailer? It's a REMIX of SUPERMAN's THEME.

 

[Herolee10]

I'm going to use the tried and true argument of, we haven't seen the movie yet. Clearly in the trailer, there will be segments shown of Superman's death being mourn. What's to say we won't get the perspective from civilians about their views on Superman, or through some plot point of Lois interviewing said civilians about it to write that article "World without Hope"? It would add some credence, at least in THIS film, to have those words by Bruce ring a little less shallow. Sure, most of you guys probably want it to ring more with the first two films, but again, they doing a "course correction" of sorts here, but you guys are crucifying their efforts with 2 lines. Who's to say those 2 lines were put in on Whedon's request? We simply don't know.

The irony here is that I actually believe and have no problem accepting the idea that Henry's superman has inspired people, especially with his sacrifice. I mean we have seen many clear examples of this in the last 2 films.

 

[Legendver2]

To answer the thread title ONCE AND FOR ALL. I want the people that think Big Blue is "getting the shaft" to let this sink in. The JUSTICE LEAGUE THEME, you know the one from the trailer? It's a REMIX of SUPERMAN's THEME.

People keep saying that, but I don't hear it. Am I missing something?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

To answer the thread title ONCE AND FOR ALL. I want the people that think Big Blue is "getting the shaft" to let this sink in. The JUSTICE LEAGUE THEME, you know the one from the trailer? It's a REMIX of SUPERMAN's THEME.

And if it's in caps lock, it must be all that matters!

 

[BlueLanternKal]

People keep saying that, but I don't hear it. Am I missing something?

It's literally the same theme, but played two notes are higher. Someone that knows music theory, help me out with this.

 

[writer0327]

To answer the thread title ONCE AND FOR ALL. I want the people that think Big Blue is "getting the shaft" to let this sink in. The JUSTICE LEAGUE THEME, you know the one from the trailer? It's a REMIX of SUPERMAN's THEME.

How is this relevant? What does a theme song have to do with the character's importance to the story? If anything it's more window dressing, much like those allusions to Superman in the trailer, that he's supposedly the influence and inspiration behind everything we see in the film, without actually being a prominent on-screen presence in the film itself.

 

[misslane38]

I'm not conflating anything, but rather pointing out an obvious dissonance between the in-universe story and the audience's perception of it.

Analyzing the fiction without thinking about the audience's response to it is a pointless activity.

That's why the pages and pages of fan analysis of something like BvS don't amount to anything: they can never explain away the disconnect with the audience.

But the dissonance to which you are referring is irrelevant to whether Bruce's lines work within the fictional narrative he inhabits. His words cannot be addressed to you, the audience, instead of what he knows to be the truth of his world and his experience.

I am not trying to account for the audience experience at all in this conversation. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to feel differently about which hero inspired you more or which hero is more of a beacon of hope.

What I am trying to do is explain why the audience cannot be the source of Bruce's commentary about Superman versus, let's say, Diana. Because his truth is not our truth. Your experience as an audience member has nothing to do with what Bruce is saying, so it cannot be used to discount his comments as consistent with his reality and the reality of the DCEU narrative.

In other words, you need to stop bringing meta guns to a narrative knife fight. If we're talking story, talk story. If we're talking audience response, we can talk audience response.

 

[WBwins]

In essence, the in-universe story seems to want to ascribe to Superman the type of reaction that Diana actually inspired.

I'm not sure how much that cognitive dissonance will affect the movie, because I haven't seen the movie.

But it could get a little weird. That's because Jenkins and Co. showed how it is supposed to work, and that is going to be fresh in everyone's mind.

Bingo

 

[Herolee10]

To answer the thread title ONCE AND FOR ALL. I want the people that think Big Blue is "getting the shaft" to let this sink in. The JUSTICE LEAGUE THEME, you know the one from the trailer? It's a REMIX of SUPERMAN's THEME.

In that case, who is the only member, sorry, character missing from these posters?

Who is the person where they will most likely have the least amount of opportunities to interact with the group?

 

[misslane38]

All I ever saw with Pete was him helping Clark up after being shoved about and looking at him in pity rather than friendship. Then when Lois came to Smallville to question him about Clark, it looked like he gave her his mother's home address which seemed like him giving up Clark's secret to me! - I don't think I've ever noticed him standing by Martha's side at the funeral, makes me want to go back and watch it again and see if I can see it through your eyes!

Pete didn't give up Clark's secret! Lois already knew! She wouldn't have known about Pete if he wasn't already connected to Clark Kent. When I said Pete didn't give up Clark's secret, I'm talking about the decades between the bus incident and his death. The only time he acknowledged the truth about Clark was to someone who already knew it!

And, it doesn't matter if you see pity or friendship in Pete's helping hand, the point is that Pete was not one of the bullies anymore. If Bruce's statement about Clark/Superman is to resonate, then he has to be kind of man who makes people better.

So a hand offered in pity or friendship is still better than a hand offered in hatred or aggression. Pete Ross went from being a bully to a boy who pitied and helped those who were bullied. That's a big deal, and it's a big deal that was repeated with Colonel Hardy and Bruce Wayne.

 

[Herolee10]

How is this relevant? What does a theme song have to do with the character's importance to the story? If anything it's more window dressing, much like those allusions to Superman in the trailer, that he's supposedly the influence and inspiration behind everything we see in the film, without actually being a prominent on-screen presence in the film itself.

Agreed. Plus, for those that like to use the Luke Skywalker example from TFA, someone else brilliantly pointed out that TFA wasn't so much about Luke as a character but about introducing a new generation of characters and heroes, hence why his absence for 99% of the film works. Over here, not so much

 

[matt47]

People keep saying that, but I don't hear it. Am I missing something?

If you play the man of steel theme over the trailer you should be able to tell.

 

[Flemm]

I am not trying to account for the audience experience at all in this conversation.

Yeah, but I am choosing to take it into account.

If you don't want to, then fine. My original comment was not addressed to you. It was a response to another forum user.

In other words, you need to stop bringing meta guns to a narrative knife fight.

It's not a fight. I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to make it one, though, with the aggressive rhetoric and veiled ad hominem.

 

[Legendver2]

If you play the man of steel theme over the trailer you should be able to tell.

You have a timestamp on the official WB trailer on when the theme starts?

 

[matt47]

You have a timestamp on the official WB trailer on when the theme starts?

It starts at 1:26 but you can really hear it at 2:43.

 

[Legendver2]

It starts at 1:26 but you can really hear it at 2:43.

Nope, I don't hear it It sounds like a completely new theme to me

 

[misslane38]

Yeah, but I am choosing to take it into account.

If you don't want to, then fine. My original comment was not addressed to you. It was a response to another forum user.

I know you are taking it into account, and I think it's ludicrous. Bruce can only speak to his in-universe experience. How audiences have responded differently to Superman and Wonder Woman has nothing to do with the veracity of Bruce's comments from his point of view or from the narrative's. It may not feel true to you from your subjective experience, but it's true to the narrative. The dissonance you speak of is in you, in other words, and not the films.

It's not a fight. I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to make it one, though, with the aggressive rhetoric and veiled ad hominem.

It's a metaphor, a cliche, a saying. You know this. I know you do. It refers to the tools used for a task, which in this case is an analytical discussion, and not an actual fight.

 

[Iceman]

In that case, who is the only member, sorry, character missing from these posters?

Not sure if you mean Lantern or Manhunter. I guess MM as Lanterns at least got a mention.

 

[Marvin]

Not sure if you mean Lantern or Manhunter. I guess MM as Lanterns at least got a mention.

captain marvel

 

[Herolee10]

Not sure if you mean Lantern or Manhunter. I guess MM as Lanterns at least got a mention.

Indeed.lol

Though I think I'm definitely beginning to understand on why he isn't there. It's not so much about wanting to keep him a secret but promoting the film accurately.

Superman isn't a member of this version of the League so hence why he isn't on the posters.

 

[writer0327]

Agreed. Plus, for those that like to use the Luke Skywalker example from TFA, someone else brilliantly pointed out that TFA wasn't so much about Luke as a character but about introducing a new generation of characters and heroes, hence why his absence for 99% of the film works. Over here, not so much

Exactly. It's the biggest problem I have with it.

TFA introduces us to the newest SW heroes, Rey, Finn, and Poe, in a special and spectacular way. Luke can be a minor character here, a plot point, a macguffin. He's not necessary because we don't need to get to know him at all. He's not really important to the narrative.

However, the Superman of this generation is being shunted to one side in favor of other characters post-MoS. It's almost like after the negativity/lack of buzz following MoS, WB/DC had this attitude that Superman was no longer a relevant character, or that he was too boring because he was too overpowered, or whatever criticisms have been levied at the character over the years, and they said, "Oh well, nothing we can do with him, let's just make him a piece of the JL instead of the central character."

I don't see how this poll is so close. I don't see how people really believe the character of Superman is being done justice.

 

[Iceman]

captain marvel

Indeed.lol

Though I think I'm definitely beginning to understand on why he isn't there. It's not so much about wanting to keep him a secret but promoting the film accurately.

Superman isn't a member of this version of the League so hence why he isn't on the posters.

I know it's a big deal to Superman-specific fans that their guy is a founding member. I don't know if you read team books a lot. I've been a fan of the main ones for decades and these teams not only go on, but feature many, many issues without their no.1 or no.2 or no.3 character (sometimes that character is dead for eg t. The show goes on and in a team the idea is that the team is bigger than any individual and no member is indispensable (same goes for sports teams).

Teams with rotating rosters are my favourite. Many of my favourite characters have been given this 'shaft' you speak of when it comes to translating these teams to comic-films. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the films (if they are good). At least Supes is one of the only Leaguers to have had a solo film, as well as featuring as half of the other main event film. I hope you get a JL sequel or MoS2 and everything you want from Supes in those films, but thought I'd try and give you an idea of how I look at it when my favourites don't make it in at all or get severely gimped.

 

[jmc]

But the dissonance to which you are referring is irrelevant to whether Bruce's lines work within the fictional narrative he inhabits. His words cannot be addressed to you, the audience, instead of what he knows to be the truth of his world and his experience.

I am not trying to account for the audience experience at all in this conversation. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to feel differently about which hero inspired you more or which hero is more of a beacon of hope.

What I am trying to do is explain why the audience cannot be the source of Bruce's commentary about Superman versus, let's say, Diana. Because his truth is not our truth. Your experience as an audience member has nothing to do with what Bruce is saying, so it cannot be used to discount his comments as consistent with his reality and the reality of the DCEU narrative.

In other words, you need to stop bringing meta guns to a narrative knife fight. If we're talking story, talk story. If we're talking audience response, we can talk audience response.

Yeah but Bruce is a fictional character. The creators have complete control over what he says and does. You're coming across like no one has any control as to what the characters say or think. The cognitive dissonance is coming from the people who are creating and marketing the film. They are fully aware of the response this Superman has gotten but are acting, through the characters, like they are talking about a Christopher Reeve like version of Superman and not one who audiences saw. It's a disengenuous attempt to try and control the real world narrative about how this Superman is seen through the film itself. This is similar to them addressing the destruction in MoS in BvS. The problem is you can't dictate how the character is perceived in the real world once it's seen on film. You can say all you want that how the audience feels doesn't matter but the financial reality is it does matter.