Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 1

[Herolee10]

Imagine if they had done the death arc AFTER doing the first JL film. We could have gotten the funeral for a friend sequence where all of the costumed heroes are accompanying Superman's casket to his resting place.

He'll, we could have then devoted an entire film to focus on the return aspect without having to worry about the JL story and actually bring in the reign of the superman arc to life, with possibly Hal Jordan in th mix.

Because Warner Bros blew their chunks out this early in the game, we won't get this scenario for a VERY LONG time.

 

[The Guard]

This is the part where I point out that Superman has died several times in the comics.

If can die and come back once...

Just saying.

 

[Herolee10]

This is the part where I point out that Superman has died several times in the comics.

If can die and come back once...

Just saying.

They aren't going to kill him again anytime soon, at least not the Cavil version. If Henry signs a new deal after this film, then he will still be around for awhile.

 

[metaphysician]

Probably not much more, but he's likely to be more of a character, rather than a plot device.

But only slightly, if his screentime is as wee as it seems to be. I mean, you can do characterization during battle, but the giant final act fight scene was almost certainly finished filming well before Whedon showed up. Pretty much just leaves whatever room the epilogue allows. That's not much elbow space even for a skilled writer.

 

[metaphysician]

You were the one who brought up the world saving thing. He didn't save the world against some inevitable disaster, he effectively mopped up his own ****.

More importantly, you can save the day all you want, and still not be a "Beacon of Hope". Inspiration is not done by saving people, its done by making people believe they are *worth* saving, of being better. Superman sure as hell never did that in the movies.

 

[Greens]

More importantly, you can save the day all you want, and still not be a "Beacon of Hope". Inspiration is not done by saving people, its done by making people believe they are *worth* saving, of being better. Superman sure as hell never did that in the movies.

Maybe Affleck's Boston accent made it sound like "beacon of hope", but what he was saying was "bacon is dope". Can't disagree with that.

 

[The Guard]

More importantly, you can save the day all you want, and still not be a "Beacon of Hope". Inspiration is not done by saving people, its done by making people believe they are *worth* saving, of being better. Superman sure as hell never did that in the movies.

I'm fuzzy on why you're trying to apply specific limitatons to such a vaguely worded phrase such as "beacon of hope".

All kinds of things can be seen as a beacon of hope. There's no inherent requirement involved besides providing hope, and in this case, Batman is referring to Superman making them see the best in themselves, which was clearly the case for Batman.

 

[Herolee10]

You know, if the producers didn't lie about superman being a member of the group or how it wasn't complete without him, then I think some folks (including myself) wouldn't have gotten our hopes up. But with it being blatantly obvious now that Superman isn't a part of the League in this interpretation and learning about this so late in the game, that is what makes it such a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[misslane38]

More importantly, you can save the day all you want, and still not be a "Beacon of Hope". Inspiration is not done by saving people, its done by making people believe they are *worth* saving, of being better. Superman sure as hell never did that in the movies.

Well, I think Clark inspired people like Pete Ross, Lois Lane, Colonel Hardy, and Bruce Wayne. Let's look at someone like June Finch. I'm sure she was a rare politician with integrity before Superman's debut, but she didn't have to take the positions she did in the wake of the world's introduction to The Superman. Yet, when tested, Finch pursued transparency and truth. She stood against corruption. Would General Swanwick have been so amenable to assisting Lois Lane if not for Superman? Did Superman make Finch and Swanwick better? I'm not sure. But, then again, I don't think the process of making people better is always so defined. Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to find an example of Reeve's Superman making people believe they were capable of being better in his first two cinematic outings. Can you?

 

[Marvin]

As long as this 'elseworlds' tale respects that JL is incomplete in some way without him, i'll be okay with it.

Seeing cbm as anything but elseworlds is folly.
That nolan stuff for instance, burton stuff..
Unless these are connected to the comic books I really don't see seeing them any other way.

Logan, Blade....all of them.

 

[Ryudoz]

Seeing cbm as anything but elseworlds is folly.
That nolan stuff for instance, burton stuff..
Unless these are connected to the comic books I really don't see seeing them any other way.

Logan, Blade....all of them.

Honestly, it's the only way to do so and stay sane, since 100% print to film adaptations are so rare or even possible.

 

[sf2]

Whether Superman is alive or dead, he doesn't seem to be a part of WB's cinematic plans. Better to have Superman in the Supergirl TV series or have his own spin-off TV series. Superman seems to do well in TV than film.

i might not enjoy it. at least other fans do and have them entertained.

 

[sf2]

It's like they're trying to build the DCU cinematic universe without Superman.

perhaps they just can't get a good story for an established superman. you know... they have been trying since SII.

 

[kloker]

Shafting Superman is pretty much excluding him from all of the "once in a lifetime" posters and artwork. There will be nothing to show, other than the film itself, to demonstrate his contribution to the film.

That also pains me a lot. We'll have to wait for JL 2 to see that. If only they didn't kill him in BvS... I think that really was the worst decision to make. I mean, his death was really inspiring in the comics because he died when he was an established and well respected hero for years ! There was a real emotion among fans when he died. And now I got this "it need to be fixed" feeling about Superman because he died too early just to have Batman forming the League because it's "more interesting".

 

[FunkMiller]

More importantly, you can save the day all you want, and still not be a "Beacon of Hope". Inspiration is not done by saving people, its done by making people believe they are *worth* saving, of being better. Superman sure as hell never did that in the movies.

Is the issue here that Superman may well be seen as a beacon of hope 'in universe' but to a majority of the audience he didn't for one rosy second.

BvS does not sell Superman to the audience as a positive character. The overwhelming response to him across the board was that he was not the shining beacon of light that Superman should be. There was just too much mopey, violent Superman, and nowhere near enough saviour Superman.

You can make arguments all day long about how people within the narrative think he's a beacon of light, but if that hasn't translated to the audience (and it really hasn't) then people can't be blamed for feeling like what Batfleck says in the JL trailer rings hollow.

 

[idiot09]

That doesnt make any sense though. If you dont like a character, and in the story, people do, and they are celebrating him, and if you cant connect to that, thats on you. Just because YOU dont believe in something that a character in the movie does, doesnt mean thats a narrative shortcoming.

Superman DID bring hope to a hopeless world in BvS. Thats just how the story went. It doesnt matter that the real world audiences are still divided on the potrayal. Story comes first.

 

[Herolee10]

I'm actually surprised that people are still debating about that. Even with all of my numerous issues, even I can agree that Henry's Superman did bring hope to the DCEU world.

 

[misslane38]

Is the issue here that Superman may well be seen as a beacon of hope 'in universe' but to a majority of the audience he didn't for one rosy second.

I think that speaks more to what people mistake or misunderstand as hope, honestly.

BvS does not sell Superman to the audience as a positive character. The overwhelming response to him across the board was that he was not the shining beacon of light that Superman should be. There was just too much mopey, violent Superman, and nowhere near enough saviour Superman.

A character who is mopey yet still steps forward to save people, takes a leap of faith on humanity, continues to save people, attempts to engage in conversation about his role in the world, decides to endure anything that comes because this is his world, and does so by dying for it is what makes this Superman, in particular, a shining beacon of light. Hope can only exist within despair; light shines brightest in darkness. Superman is a beacon because he overcomes fear, doubt, guilt, and hopelessness. And he's no more violent than Reeve's Superman, so that criticism doesn't work as an explanation.

You can make arguments all day long about how people within the narrative think he's a beacon of light, but if that hasn't translated to the audience (and it really hasn't) then people can't be blamed for feeling like what Batfleck says in the JL trailer rings hollow.

We saw how Clark saved Pete and in doing so made him better. We saw how Clark's legend as a guardian angel and his story about Jonathan moved Lois -- an ambitious and successful journalist who posted her mysterious alien savior story on Woodburn's cancerous blog -- to drop her follow up story that intended to reveal everything about Clark to the world. We saw how Superman's humility in surrender and allegiance in battle convinced Colonel Hardy, General Swanwick, Captain Ferris, and Dr. Hamilton to trust him and work with him to defeat Zod. We saw how Superman's love for his mother gave Batman another chance to fulfill the promise of the good man his once was, and later how his sacrifice restored Bruce's faith in men and helped him embrace not just aliens but metahumans and gods as friends and allies. These characters don't think they are better because of Superman; they know they are better. We've seen them be better.

So you can make arguments all day long about how the line rings hollow because the films didn't work for you, but at some point you have to ask yourself why hope and inspiration has to fit into neat boxes and predetermined tropes in order for it to register as real. The Superman I love is a hero whose beacon shines brightest when he makes a difference in the lives of the bullies, the broken, and the lost. He's the hero who doesn't need the accolades of adoring crowds to find validation and is uncomfortable with deification of any kind. If Superman can find hope and the will to keep going, to be humble, to apologize, to trust, to protect his enemies, to keep saving, to choose our world as his world, and to keep sacrificing, then what greater hope can there be?

Hope masquerading as joy, perhaps? Hope as near universal love and acceptance? Hope as fame? For Reeve's Superman that sentimental version of hope walked the tightrope of selfishness and vanity. He was willing to give it all up for love, and when that couldn't last, he killed his enemy, wiped his beloved's mind of her memories, and beat up his bully rather than show him a better way. The greatest example of his ability to inspire hope and make someone better was Miss Tessmacher who saved his life in exchange for the protection of her family. It is only a shade of Superman's inspirational effect on Batman, however. But he was confident, happy, extroverted, witty, and charming, right? I guess that is what passes as hope these days. Pity.

 

[Herolee10]

That also pains me a lot. We'll have to wait for JL 2 to see that. If only they didn't kill him in BvS... I think that really was the worst decision to make. I mean, his death was really inspiring in the comics because he died when he was an established and well respected hero for years ! There was a real emotion among fans when he died. And now I got this "it need to be fixed" feeling about Superman because he died too early just to have Batman forming the League because it's "more interesting".

Pretty much what I've been saying from the beginning.

Oh well, what can we do now? What's done is done. Do we have to be happy about it? Nope. But, by a certain point, even I have to eventually realize that this is what we were dealt with regarding Superman's role in the JL.

I just don't think that this Superman can co-exist in a shared universe world since his individual arcs don't mesh well with the overall universe (namely the League).

When Superman comes back to life in this film, he's still going to be an outsider to most of these heroes. You could literally replace the JL with members of the Superman family (Steel, Supergirl, Superboy, Mon-el) and it wouldn't make any difference in the long run.

 

[FunkMiller]

So you can make arguments all day long about how the line rings hollow because the films didn't work for you, but at some point you have to ask yourself why hope and inspiration has to fit into neat boxes and predetermined tropes in order for it to register as real.

See, what I think is irrelevant. I'm talking about how the audience sees this Superman. You may see things in the Snyder Superman, and indeed they might be there for you if you're willing to invest the time and effort to see them, but the general audience isn't. To them, Superman did not come across well in BvS, and the idea that people left that movie by and large thinking that Superman had been some kind of beacon of hope is just not true. That's the issue with what Batfleck is saying in the trailer. It won't be what most people remember from BvS.

They remember Superman flying a man through a brick wall with a sneer on his face. They remember him with red eyes blazing in the darkness with rain pouring down. They remember him saying that Superman was never real. They remember him being not really that far away from Batman in character and tone. The stuff you talk about - the positive stuff, is lost to the GA because it takes a back seat to the maudlin tone and grimdark stuff that is front and centre throughout.

I totally get you can read a lot into the characterisation than the general audience doesn't, and that's cool. There's a lot of interesting stuff to dissect. But it doesn't matter, not really. Not when you're talking about the reception to the movie and character as a whole. That's Snyder's error - he tries to deconstruct and analyse, and in doing so, he alienates the general audience.

I hope JL presents is with a Superman people can love - because he should be loved. At the moment, that love just does not exist for Cavill's Superman, and that's a crying shame in my book.

 

[Flint Marko]

Well said.

Snyder and co. took a character that a lot of people assume is boring and outdated and chose to depict him as an icon, a diety to endlessly drone on about, than an actual character and in doing so failed to overcome that misconception. Superman isn't boring, but Snyder's Superman is.

 

[idiot09]

Superman isn't boring, but Snyder's Superman is.

This Superman is the most interesting, I have found in a long time. And it is for a lot of people.So many people have said how they thought Superman was lame, but then they saw Man of Steel, and now Superman is their favourite hero.

And to say the GA doesnt like this Superman is just a empty statement. You dont know that. I dont know that. You and I dont speak for millions of people. The GA might just like this Superman, and not like these movies or something. Infact the GA might just see this Superman as complex, emotional and cool while the previous versions as lame and cheesy. Thats the sentiment I have gathered for a lot of people. Its mostly fanboys who are divided on this Superman.

Its easy to forget but Man of Steel had the same cinemascore as the widely accepted and loved the new Planet of the Ape trilogy movies. This Superman is not nearly as hated as bloggers would have you believe.

Anyone who saw BvS has seen that Superman was celebrated as an icon, a symbol of hope, as a selfless person, at the end of BvS. As someone who's spirit lived on, and they didnt have to erect a monument for that. The GA saw Superman being celebrated in SS as well. And they saw Superman saving the world and many people, and being selfless and heroic in Man of Steel. They would have no problem in accepting that Bruce and the world are mourning and have been inspired by Superman.

 

[Flint Marko]

Anyone who saw BVS in theaters saw how disposable and wooden Superman was as a character. He was given 43 lines of dialogue, 36 of which were 12 words or less. Most of the time he said the bare minimum to allow the other person to carry the scene. Some of the time he hardly spoke at all, like when he was receiving advice from his mother or at the senate.

Yeah... I'm really not interested in reading essay-length posts outlining every detail of his costume and what this pose meant in this certain shot as a way to imbue depth and personality to this character. I saw BvS, I'm well aware of how he's been treated by Snyder and needless to say, I'm not a fan.

 

[Tra-El]

Henry's Superman, to me, is by far the most relatable. The journey of circumstances Snyder's Superman has been put through makes me appreciate the character even more. There's multiple real life scenario's in Kal's arc up to this point that made me personally relate and fall in love with the character in other ways I thought could not be done.

Henry's Superman was meant to last and they took the liberty to build the DC Universe around him, yet, allowing his arc to grow into the role that was designed to be incomplete. People have been talking more about Superman these past few years than I have ever seen in prior years. Snyder's message is WORKING. Zack said how he wanted to emphasize the fact that Superman is indeed an alien. He is NOT one of us. With that, comes uncertainty. He wanted to bring in a Superman that was going to be put through the ringer and wanted him to have a REASON to become Superman in the long-run. Zack's interpretation is meant to make the audience adjust their mindset into brainteasing the notion of Superman not being the Superman they think they know. It's all for a reason. Snyder hit his mark. Now, Kal is set up for a return of true hope and optimism that will remind the fanbase what makes Superman great to begin with. We're supposed to miss that. That's the point of Snyder's Superman.

 

[Tra-El]

Anyone who saw BVS in theaters saw how disposable and wooden Superman was as a character. He was given 43 lines of dialogue, 36 of which were 12 words or less. Most of the time he said the bare minimum to allow the other person to carry the scene. Some of the time he hardly spoke at all, like when he was receiving advice from his mother or at the senate.

Yeah... I'm really not interested in reading essay-length posts outlining every detail of his costume and what this pose meant in this certain shot as a way to imbue depth and personality to this character. I saw BvS, I'm well aware of how he's been treated by Snyder and needless to say, I'm not a fan.

Words. Dialogue. All hog-wash criticisms when it comes to missing the point of BvS. Superman was silenced by Lex Luthor and by the Bat vigilante and to some degree, the world media. It's setting up for more interesting plot points to what is meant to be a connected universe. Fact of the matter is, a character like Superman is much more than words or dialogue. His presence alone tells a story. A person or character's energy can say a lot and that always rung true to me for Superman. He doesn't have to say much, but his presence is always felt. Though Clark was meant to be silenced by VILLAINY and antagonist attacks, I still felt the weight of the world on his shoulders when presented on-screen. That counts for something. When Kal walked in the courtroom in BvS, I was literally holding my breath. Good storytelling without unneeded dialogue 101. The aurora of Superman himself brought the goods. That's not to say I crave more for Superman. God knows I TRULY do, but that's coming, I'm sure of but when it comes to the actual FILM and storytelling in itself, for me as a fan, it worked. I didn't have to waste my time and actually count Henry's line's to prove a point.