Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 2

[Superchan]

I don't think we can know any of that for sure.

We don't, hence I put the "I believe" in the sentence. The fact is we know NOTHING for sure.

That says something about Lois Lane, not Superman. How do you know what you know about Superman's popularity during the cited time period?

Without superman Lois lane is nothing but a Torchy Blane/Dale Arden wannabe.
As for proofs of Superman's popularity, well in the late 30s superman was selling millions of copies, was the main reading material for the GIs going to WWII and Hitler mentioned him by name in one of his speeches, not to mention that his massive popularity gave birth to the superhero comic-book genre.
In the 40s the kirk Allen movie serials were the most successful of their time, the Fleisher cartoons were massively successful and were nominated for an academy award and Superman was still the top selling comic-book character.
In the 50s superman continued to be the top selling comic-book character and the George Reeves tv show was massive while no other comic-book character had any media project remotely as successful as the AOS.
In the 60s Superman's comics were selling so well that lois and even Jimmy's comics were outselling Batman's not to mention that the filmation superman cartoons were the top rated of their time and actually make Filmation a legit animation house.
By the 70s Marvel was giving superman a good run for his money in comicbook sales but the Chris Reeve movie came out and the rest is history.
by the mid 80s the DKR came out and comics went dark while superman IV killed any and all good will for the character but John Byrne's superman revamp was a big success and the superboy tv show was an even bigger success so superman was still top dog until Burton's batman came out and the rest is history.

Right, which is the context in which these polls and this discussion is taking place.

No I was referring to your statement of Batman ALWAYS being more popular - which isn't true - and not the context of the polls or the discussion.

So how can one get an accurate measure of popularity based on a film or films alone, if iconic status can have so much influence?

An accurate measure of popularity would be very difficult I would imagine, because comicbook sales mean nothing now due to the low readership numbers, movie ticket sales are skewed by the movie's quality and time of release and internet polls are skewed by the visiting site's target audience. One thing remains for sure is that superman is very popular and profitable yet he could and should be alot more popular but lacks a widely acclaimed movie to get him there.

How many other factors could be at play? For example, in our changing society, is the figure of a white, heterosexual, cis man who can appear to represent America and evokes Judeo-Christian themes going to resonate as well with audiences as it did decades ago?

I honestly suggest that you stop over thinking things like that, when it comes to pop culture characters people simply want to be entertained and for me and many others Snyder's superman was not entertaining. Also if people did think along those lines then WW, Cap and even Iron man wouldn't be doing well.

As long as Superman continues to remain in the public consciousness, whether it be The DCEU Cinematic version, Supergirl , Animation or the newly formed TV series "Krypton", the character will always shine in popularity. Superman's fanbase is set in stone. The love;hate relationship comes with the territory of being iconic.

Agreed

 

[Flint Marko]

Man of Steel performed almost twice as much (1.7 times) as Superman Returns worldwide despite mixed response. It is one of the most successful reboots. Says a lot about how much people around the world enjoyed this new interpretation AND the film unlike the CLASSIC Christopher Reeve's version released in 2006.

Hell, he barely has had "good" films even to begin with! S1, S2 and MOS. That's it! Superman 3 and 4 starring Christopher Reeve himself are among the WORST films ever made!

For instance, when Superman Returns was released, everybody was making fun of the film in my country, even the press, and was rooting for a local Superhero film. And I was just 10 back then with NO access to internet and I wasn't surprised either even though I was a fan of him and enjoyed STAS a lot (which has a Superman who is as emotional and serious as Henry Cavill's.) He was in such a bad situation when it came to live-action films considering the absurdity of his powers and also films.

Regarding him not getting a sequel yet, it is probably because not many directors are interested to tackle him. How many directors rejected Man of Steel before Zack finally joined again? Even George Miller called him boring last year!

And surprisingly, even with Geoff Johns as the Creative Head of DCEU, it isn't happening yet! Really makes you think why! If Zack said he is willing to direct a 4th film with Superman, WB would probably be jumping in joy and greenlit the project. Because Superman sells with him despite the vocal minority that is present on the internet.

And random internet polls on the internet like BuzzFeed as proof? Heh. Talk about desperation when there's box-office performance of his solo film that is a much bigger and true representation of the character's popularity worldwide.

Like I said, he is the most awaited part of Justice League. If he is well-received by the vocal minority as well and still doesn't get a sequel, well, one thing would be clear for sure like I just said above!

Again, I was asking you to prove your claim that Superman was indeed the most hyped up part of JL. It appears you don't have any. The underwhelming box office numbers you keep pointing to actually paint a different picture than what you're claiming.

 

[The Batman]

Thanks for making this clear. I don't know where I'd be without your guidance. Though, if you feel that way about participation points then you simply don't have to respond to me. Simple as that.

You apparently needed the guidance, so I had to respond. You're welcome, by the way.

If networks, studios and entertainment platforms keep the character affiliated as part of their brand as something to sell then what other way is there to calculate popularity?

By measuring the success of the character on those various platforms. Which you can do to a degree through ratings, box office, comic book sales, etc. Its not rocket science.

 

[Tra-El]

All you really got to do is point out the fact that the same movie Superman supposedly died in had a cliffhanger and reference of him in every way, shape and form. The audience was left with that last memento and wink of Superman still being alive. The conversation immediately shifted to how and when Superman would come back and how that storyline would tie into Justice League. WB is hyping Superman's return by simply building up to it with his absence. They've shown Batman. They've shown Flash. They've shown Wonder Woman, Cyborg and Aquaman in action..but not Superman. That means the things they are keeping under-wraps is something they feel strongly enough about where the moment is meant to be see when your ticket is fully paid for. Things of that nature make or break a film. Superman's role will impact the League's entire approach as the backbone to the film. That's hype.

 

[Flint Marko]

So because the marketing is built around Superman, he is automatically the "most hyped" part of the movie? That doesn't add up, at least in my understanding of that phrase, when you consider that they just had their first true breakout hit in Wonder Woman. She's definitely the most hyped part of JL.

I'm honestly even skeptical whether or not the general audience even cared that Superman was killed in the first place so I'm not sure how many people are on the edge of their seat waiting for him to return. There's no way to really prove that and I think we should all be wary of imposing our own views upon the general audience, but it seemed that the conversation around BvS centered mostly on how divisive it was, with only Affleck and Gadot regularly receiving any praise.

 

[Tra-El]

By measuring the success of the character on those various platforms. Which you can do to a degree through ratings, box office, comic book sales, etc. Its not rocket science.

That's just it. It's not rocket science, which swings back around to what I've been saying. You see, while you were too busy measuring d$&cks, you ultimately just made my point. It's simple. Supergirl is going strong into her third season. Fan favorite Tyler Hoechlin's Superman originated from that medium. Henry Cavill's Superman has a big stage set up for his return in Justice League, which is bound to bring in big bucks at the Hollywood Box Office. Another Superman television spinoff, Krypton is being publicized and Superman: Rebirth is arguably one of the best received comic books on the shelf to date. TRANSLATION: Superman and his popularity are just fine.

 

[Herolee10]

So because the marketing is built around Superman, he is automatically the "most hyped" part of the movie? That doesn't add up, at least in my understanding of that phrase, when you consider that they just had their first true breakout hit in Wonder Woman. She's definitely the most hyped part of JL.

I'm honestly even skeptical whether or not the general audience even cared that Superman was killed in the first place so I'm not sure how many people are on the edge of their seat waiting for him to return. There's no way to really prove that and I think we should all be wary of imposing our own views upon the general audience, but it seemed that the conversation around BvS centered mostly on how divisive it was, with only Affleck and Gadot regularly receiving any praise.

Indeed.

Honestly, the fact that Warner Bros needs extra time to find the right person and story for the next Superman solo film just shows on how even they're aware that they didn't do Superman right in their last two attempts.

While "Man of Steel" may have been a divisive movie for critics and fans..."Batman v Superman" wasn't. It's ranked as one of the all time lowest comic book films in existence. Bad editing may have been one thing, but another factor that turned A LOT of people off from the film was just the content and direction of the story.

Now while we can all admit that there have been those who have reacted positively to Snyder's take on Superman in the last two films, I bet you can find A LOT more people who feel differently, outweighing the favoritism by a long mile.

For the few good things that was said about "Batman V Superman", Superman himself was never once listed in that group. Most people didn't care for his death so I don't think they'll care as much about his return either.

And the creative team have done a terrible job (imho) of connecting Superman's story with the larger DCEU. Superman's journey as a character has had NOTHING to do with the buildup to the Justice League. You could pretty much edit out Superman's journey as his own thing while Batman's arc as been building more up to a world with a Justice League in existence.

Which is why I don't think this film will be successful in merging the two story-lines together because the creative team never did a good job in getting people to care about seeing Superman with these other heroes. Heck, most people don't care about this Superman.

I don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that Superman is not as popular as Batman or Wonder Woman. This version isn't even an equal to them in terms of popularity. That's all on the creators.

The folks over at the MCU were bright enough in knowing on how to make the likes of someone like Captain America as popular as Iron Man, which the latter character wasn't even a household name as well until their his film. They made an obscure group like the Guardians of the Galaxy into a franchise name as well.

Why can't Warner Bros and the folks at the DCEU do the same with Superman, who is supposedly the granddaddy of all superheroes?

 

[The Batman]

That's just it. It's not rocket science, which swings back around to what I've been saying. You see, while you were too busy measuring d$&cks, you ultimately just made my point.

What...that you have a one dimensional view of Superman's current popularity?

It's simple. Henry Cavill's Superman is polarizing, with arguably underwhelming box office so far.

Tyler Hoechlin's Superman...shows up for a few episodes on Supergirl, to ultimately get his butt kicked in order to prop up Supergirl.

Krypton isn't out yet, so we obviously can't comment on how successful it is or isnt.

The only area where he actually seems to be doing OK is the comics.

TRANSLATION: Superman and his popularity are not "Just fine", especially compared to where he once was, and there's definitely room for improvement.

 

[Flint Marko]

Why can't Warner Bros and the folks at the DCEU do the same with Superman, who is supposedly the granddaddy of all superheroes?

They can, they just stumbled out of the gate by handing the keys over to the wrong film-maker. Every film he's made since 300 has either come in below expectations or flat out lost them money. Man of Steel I can understand since he was the fifth choice to direct and they had to get it out quickly, but they should have known not to give him BvS after that, his fourth movie in a row to receive a mixed reaction and, most importantly, underwhelm at the box office. What did they expect? I never have and never will speak ill of Snyder as a person, but I've been saying for four years now that he was the wrong guy to lead this universe. I'm still kind of amazed that it took WB this long to get the picture.

 

[Tra-El]

What...that you have a one dimensional view of Superman's current popularity?

Citing multiple Superman related connections to the current pop culture market is not looking at things one dimensional. It's actually looking at it from all angles. Again, we're in the middle of a current and relevant cinematic universe that is heavily influenced by the current interpretation of the Superman character. There's a successful television show and one in the pipeline, one where the viewer can tune in weekly and see the \S/ shield on their television and comic books on the stand that is keeping the recent softboot of DC Comics alive that fans can recommend. There's a plethora of action figures, statues and collectibles hitting the stands NOW more than ever (and I would know since I'm a collector. Just a few years ago, it would be HARD PRESSED to find a good Superman collectible out there. Now? Companies such as NECA have produced things that fans only could dream about.) If popularity wasn't a thing, things of that nature simply DON'T GET MADE.

It's simple. Henry Cavill's Superman is polarizing, with arguably underwhelming box office so far.

So? There's been many versions of Superman that have been "polarizing." Doesn't change the fact that Warner Brothers continue to make big budget films surrounding Superman and other DC characters. What you deem "underwhelming" is one thing, but the proof is in the pudding. As "underwhelming" as you think the box office is (and here we go with arguing empty semantics again) that didn't stop the studio from committing. Man of Steel was divisive? Here's Batman v Superman. Batman v Superman was the most ill thing that was ever created? Here's the followup with Justice League. No matter the shortcomings, there's still WAY more than enough fan service there to give the studio confidence to re-adjust and realign instead of shutting things down completely. And here we are talking about Justice League AND Superman's potential role. IT IS WHAT IT IS.

Tyler Hoechlin's Superman...shows up for a few episodes on Supergirl, to ultimately get his butt kicked in order to prop up Supergirl.

You're moving the goalposts to fit your narrative. It doesn't matter what the show did with Superman. It's the fact that a new and never before seen representation of Superman with a new actor garnered a fanbase and popularity. In fact, using Superman to prop up another character is flattering and downright complimenting. Hey, Frank Miller did it with The Dark Knight Returns and the CW used their own success with Superman to prop up Supergirl...who IS apart of his family crest. Nice try, though.

Krypton isn't out yet, so we obviously can't comment on how successful it is or isnt.

The point is that another Superman related tie-in to television (which uses the Man of Steel \S/ by the way) is being produced by a network, which means they believe in the Superman brand..and that doesn't come from unpopularity. Sure the success is to be measured later but the very fact that they want a Superman related television show just proves Big Blue's connection with an audience.

TRANSLATION: Superman and his popularity are not "Just fine", especially compared to where he once was, and there's definitely room for improvement.

We can play the game of comparing Superman's popularity throughout his 79 year history all we want and go in full circles until the cows come home. And nobody said there isn't room for improvement, there always is but you're making it sound as if he's at low levels of alarming popularity when all it is, is enough to make big budget movies, television shows, animation, collectibles and comic books. That's doing jusssssssssssssst fine.

 

[DOBSON10]

Figuring out exactly how popular characters are isn't easy but I'd say Superman has definitely been passed by a couple characters that he was previously ahead of (Iron Man, Captain America at the very least) but regardless, he's still obviously a very popular character with millions of fans and all these characters are more visible and accessible than ever because of the Comic Book movie era. So while he is probably not at his peak potential in popularity, in a sense he's more popular than ever before.

Henry Cavill's version might not be universally loved by all Superman fans or as popular as he could have been but he's got loads of fans that do love this version. Cavill and Man of Steel made me a much bigger fan of the character than I ever was before and truth is, all these characters popularity have peaks and valley's, might not be the characters peak but I wouldn't call it a valley either.

 

[All-Father]

What...that you have a one dimensional view of Superman's current popularity?

It's simple. Henry Cavill's Superman is polarizing, with arguably underwhelming box office so far.

Tyler Hoechlin's Superman...shows up for a few episodes on Supergirl, to ultimately get his butt kicked in order to prop up Supergirl.

Krypton isn't out yet, so we obviously can't comment on how successful it is or isnt.

The only area where he actually seems to be doing OK is the comics.

TRANSLATION: Superman and his popularity are not "Just fine", especially compared to where he once was, and there's definitely room for improvement.

And he's not even the second best selling hero (after Batman, obviously), The Flash is!

 

[writer0327]

It's clear Superman is no longer the focal point of the DCEU. They are certainly highlighting and marketing other characters much, much more than Supes. I guess the question is, is this a problem or no? I feel like the best version of the DCEU has Supes at the forefront of the universe, but maybe I'm wrong. I know one thing, the portrayal and handling of Superman has certainly dampened by enjoyment of the universe thus far.

 

[The Guard]

Wait for it...

 

[Micromind]

There's no need to have only One superhero to be at the forefront of DCEU, in comics, at one time.. Captain Marvel (Shazam !) was more popular character than Superman, then for a period Superman was the most popular superhero, then Batman took the most popular superhero spot.

Similarly, right now Wonder Woman is the most popular character of DCEU, Batman may soon take back the number one spot, who knows, after we get a successful sequel to MoS, Superman may become the most successful Superhero again.

Edit: There's even a chance for Marvel (Shazam !) to become a popular superhero again after so many years, anything's possible. All they need is a one great movie.

 

[The Batman]

Citing multiple Superman related connections to the current pop culture market is not looking at things one dimensional.

Saying "Superman's popularity is just fine" just because he gets things made is looking at things one dimensional.

You can try to wave off the polarizing films with underwhelming box office, you can try and pretend that it "Doesn't matter" how TV shows present him (A silly claim, because if a take on the character becomes popular, it's usually down to how he's presented), etc, at the end of the day, no, things aren't "just fine" with Superman. And No one ever said or even implied that his popularity is at an all time low, either.

 

[Superchan]

I guess it's safe to say that the character is still very popular judging by how long smallville lasted, how superman doomsday is still the top selling DTV DC movie, how superman earth one V1-3 were all in the NY times top selling list for OGNs and how massively MOS opened.
With all that being said Superman could and should be doing ALOT better but it's understandable because superman is yet to have a widely acclaimed movie this century unlike batman (the DK trilogy), Spidy (spidy1-2 and homecoming), IM (IM 1), Cap (WS and CW), Wolvarine (Logan), deadpool, Guardians and now WW.

 

[sf2]

Or BvS could've been expanded into two films to make a MoS trilogy, featuring Batman and Superman's stories, to expand on both, Batman's hopeless and Redemption and rediscovering his purpose, and Superman's relationship to humanity from both points of view. Make it into a 4 part story, similar to the big comic events like Dark Knight Returns or Superman For All Seasons

it would be too awesomesause and too perfect!!!

but then, WB/DC can't wait any longer... they want their golden eggs laying goose (JL) ASAP. hoping it will get The Avengers's huge success... and having positive effects to all the movies coming out later...

 

[sf2]

???

. . .that is *exactly* the complaint, that he was just there to react to people and events, rather than to actually be a character in his own right, with his own goals and desires and motivations. Note that "but the plot justifies this" is no excuse, someone decided to write every single scene that so reduced him.

??? because superman didn't cook up a plan, therefore he was barely a character???

 

[sf2]

Man of Steel performed almost twice as much (1.7 times) as Superman Returns worldwide despite mixed response. It is one of the most successful reboots. Says a lot about how much people around the world enjoyed this new interpretation AND the film unlike the CLASSIC Christopher Reeve's version released in 2006.

Hell, he barely has had "good" films even to begin with! S1, S2 and MOS. That's it! Superman 3 and 4 starring Christopher Reeve himself are among the WORST films ever made!

For instance, when Superman Returns was released, everybody was making fun of the film in my country, even the press, and was rooting for a local Superhero film. And I was just 10 back then with NO access to internet and I wasn't surprised either even though I was a fan of him and enjoyed STAS a lot (which has a Superman who is as emotional and serious as Henry Cavill's.) He was in such a bad situation when it came to live-action films considering the absurdity of his powers and also films.

Regarding him not getting a sequel yet, it is probably because not many directors are interested to tackle him. How many directors rejected Man of Steel before Zack finally joined again? Even George Miller called him boring last year!

And surprisingly, even with Geoff Johns as the Creative Head of DCEU, it isn't happening yet! Really makes you think why! If Zack said he is willing to direct a 4th film with Superman, WB would probably be jumping in joy and greenlit the project. Because Superman sells with him despite the vocal minority that is present on the internet.

And random internet polls on the internet like BuzzFeed as proof? Heh. Talk about desperation when there's box-office performance of his solo film that is a much bigger and true representation of the character's popularity worldwide.

Like I said, he is the most awaited part of Justice League. If he is well-received by the vocal minority as well and still doesn't get a sequel, well, one thing would be clear for sure like I just said above!

so no MOS2 news because no director interested???
i thought mostly because they can't get a good story / script writer.

 

[metaphysician]

Thank you for summing up the true rationale behind these "Superman's more popular than ever" posts.

BTW, saying people prefer Snyder Supes to Donner's because MOS did better than SR is about as logical as me saying that people prefer Daniel Craig's James Bond to Sean Connery's because Casino Royale did better than Die Another Day.

So, in this analogy, does this make Timothy Dalton = Bruce Timm? t:

 

[TheTarkKnight]

What...that you have a one dimensional view of Superman's current popularity?

It's simple. Henry Cavill's Superman is polarizing, with arguably underwhelming box office so far.

Tyler Hoechlin's Superman...shows up for a few episodes on Supergirl, to ultimately get his butt kicked in order to prop up Supergirl.

Krypton isn't out yet, so we obviously can't comment on how successful it is or isnt.

The only area where he actually seems to be doing OK is the comics.

TRANSLATION: Superman and his popularity are not "Just fine", especially compared to where he once was, and there's definitely room for improvement.

Think about this for a second...
Supergirl kicked Superman's butt!
She's THAT good. Because Superman is the yardstick. Get it?

Oh, and truly I don't believe that Supergirl could've won that fight despite what Supes claims (not going easy on her and being fully powered during the fight), especially considering Superman's length of exposure to the sun's radiation on earth, and also his experience fighting other superpowered beings.

 

[metaphysician]

What...that you have a one dimensional view of Superman's current popularity?

It's simple. Henry Cavill's Superman is polarizing, with arguably underwhelming box office so far.

Tyler Hoechlin's Superman...shows up for a few episodes on Supergirl, to ultimately get his butt kicked in order to prop up Supergirl.

Krypton isn't out yet, so we obviously can't comment on how successful it is or isnt.

The only area where he actually seems to be doing OK is the comics.

TRANSLATION: Superman and his popularity are not "Just fine", especially compared to where he once was, and there's definitely room for improvement.

Though given the ratings bump that the s2 intro for Supergirl got, you could argue that Superman *is* popular. . . he's just not being provided. There is a hunger in the audience for Superman, but its a hunger for *Superman*. Not for edgy 90s takes on what Superman "should" be.

 

[Limonade]

They can, they just stumbled out of the gate by handing the keys over to the wrong film-maker. Every film he's made since 300 has either come in below expectations or flat out lost them money. Man of Steel I can understand since he was the fifth choice to direct and they had to get it out quickly, but they should have known not to give him BvS after that, his fourth movie in a row to receive a mixed reaction and, most importantly, underwhelm at the box office. What did they expect? I never have and never will speak ill of Snyder as a person, but I've been saying for four years now that he was the wrong guy to lead this universe. I'm still kind of amazed that it took WB this long to get the picture.

I still blame Tsujihara and his team of execs for this push without a solid plan. This is what happens when one rushes through a Universe to match the competition.

 

[Flint Marko]

I still blame Tsujihara and his team of execs for this push without a solid plan. This is what happens when one rushes through a Universe to match the competition.

Well when it comes to MoS they had been turned down by four different directors and needed to get production started soon or they'd owe money to the Siegel/Shuster estate. So sure, go with Snyder. It's worth mentioning that, at this time, it was not envisioned as the start of a cinematic universe. But when that movie underwhelmed both critically and financially (again, Snyder's fourth movie in a row to do so), you don't let him control the universe going forward. Everyone should have recognized that as a bad move at the time, but yeah, they wanted to rush forward without any real plan.