Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"?

[idiot09]

They raised him to be worried about his powers and the negative effect he will have on the world... rather than the positive effect.

Ma Kent : "The truth about you is beautiful,I'm just worried they will take you away from me"

---------

Martha : [about Jonathan] He always believed you were meant for greater things, and that when the day came, your shoulders would be able to bear the weight.
Clark : Yeah, I just wish he could have been here to see it finally happen.
Martha : He saw it, Clark, believe me.

 

[FunkMiller]

Luke didn't die in the last film like Superman did. They want to keep Superman hidden until he is revealed in the film.

Seriously wtf. Fans go nuts when WB reveals too much in their trailers now they want Superman revealed in some way before the films release.

Yes we all know Henry Cavill will be in it but we dont know how and when which makes it fun and exciting. People are just impatient.

People lose their !@#$ because Superman isnt in the start of the team up but it wont become the Justice League anyway until Superman becomes fully into play.

I would think it would be great if the last shot of the film was a shot of the fully formed Justice League with Superman standing with them then the screen goes to black then the words "Justice League" appear like at the end of a chris nolan film.

You neatly contradict your own point there.

There isn't a single, solitary human being on god's green earth who thinks Superman is actually dead. In the same way we have no real idea what Luke's role in TLJ is, they could briefly tease Superman in the JL promo material without giving his role away either.

 

[Bren]

I have to laugh; I took my parents to watch BvS in the first week of release and when discussing JL with them the other day they'd totally forgotten...

Not forgotten the rising dirt, they forgot he 'died' at all hahaha

 

[AvegningSpider]

I have to laugh; I took my parents to watch BvS in the first week of release and when discussing JL with them the other day they'd totally forgotten...

Not forgotten the rising dirt, they forgot he 'died' at all hahaha

Well, that kinda shows the importance his death made

 

[batfreakforever]

You neatly contradict your own point there.

There isn't a single, solitary human being on god's green earth who thinks Superman is actually dead. In the same way we have no real idea what Luke's role in TLJ is, they could briefly tease Superman in the JL promo material without giving his role away either.

Again. WB dont want Superman to be seen until his ressurection in the film. No promotion. No trailer. No pics. Nothing because he is freaking dead in the film world. We all seen the dirt rise but thats all we know. Everybody knew he would be back but they need him dead so Batman and others can form the Justice League.

I really hope Superman is a villian at first in JL so I can then watch the internet explode.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Well, that kinda shows the importance his death made

Or maybe just how much they care, or paid attention. My girlfriend went and saw MoS in theaters with me, and then BvS, and I had to remind her at the beginning that this is the same battle from the ending of MoS. For some people, it's hard to get really invested or pay attention to all these plot points in a 2.5 hour movie with all this fantasy ridiculousness and CGI action. Some just go for some escapism fun and don't think about the movie again until a sequel or somebody reminds them.

I've seen all the Harry Potter films, but there are a lot of major plot points I couldn't tell you. Doesn't speak to the quality of the movies, I just saw it and then went on about my life and didn't think about it again, cause I'm not that interested in Harry Potter

 

[wnjcwjkk]

You neatly contradict your own point there.

There isn't a single, solitary human being on god's green earth who thinks Superman is actually dead. In the same way we have no real idea what Luke's role in TLJ is, they could briefly tease Superman in the JL promo material without giving his role away either.

It's not the point of anybody being surprised or shocked that he comes back to life. It's that they want you to feel his absence, leading up to the film, so that his return has more gravity and impact. The more you miss him, the more excited you'll be when he comes back. Think of the time period between BvS and JL (including Suicide Squad) as A World Without Superman.


And there's actually probably a lot of general audience members who don't follow the films who just go to the movie with a friend and see that Superman is dead in the beginning and are genuinely surprised when he comes back. For example, at the time, I didn't follow Dark Knight at all, except I remember seeing the trailer with Joker in the jail cell, and I didn't even know Harvey Dent was a character, much less that he was going to be Two Face, until I saw it in theaters, and that made it even better of an experience for me.


Sometimes (almost always, really) it's a better experience, the less you know going into it. Of course, were going to follow everything they put out. I actually feel like following all of the footage and trailers of BvS and dissecting it on here, kind of took away from the experience of the film. Felt like I knew pretty much every scene already, when watching. I can't help myself though lol, so I just hope they show enough cool stuff, but play their cards close to their vest

 

[FunkMiller]

I really hope Superman is a villian at first in JL so I can then watch the internet explode.

Actually, this would make the most sense, narrative-wise for the story as it's been established. It would be bloody awful, but it would still make sense. All that blather about Lois being the key, evil Superman in the Knightmare Sequence, etc. I know people say that because Flash changed the timeline, we won't get evil Superman, but I still think it's highly likely, given the way Snyder goes about things. This would also fit in with the lack of Superman in any promo material. If you're going to make him the antagonist, then you would keep him seperate from the rest of the League, wouldn't you?

 

[FunkMiller]

Sometimes (almost always, really) it's a better experience, the less you know going into it.

Completely agree, but given that we all know Superman is in this film, why not at least tease him in the promo material? After all, he's extremely popular. It'd help build hype.

...unless they're going evil with him, as I say in my above point.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Yeah I don't see a problem with maybe a glimpse of him, or a shot of the open, empty casket, or maybe just people talking about the impact of his death. I'd love to see more of the real world news broadcasters and social commentators in the film talking about the world's new view on Superman (I'd prefer that the entire world not be suddenly pro Superman, it's just now a majority opinion), that was one thing I really loved in BvS, so I'd love to see something like that in the promotion. Like news footage of memorials or people out in the street with the S logo on their shirt feeding the homeless or trying to make a difference, something similar to World Without A Superman that really shows his effect on ordinary people.


For those that feel shafted, would that kind of thing satiate your desire for Superman related promotion, or do you feel you need to see footage of Superman actually doing or saying something?

I mean, I get it, everybody loves to get a little footage to satisfy your curiosity when waiting over a year for something you're excited about, so of course you wanna see a little bit of Superman. But honestly, I'm fine if they just leave all the Superman stuff for the film. There's enough already to sell tickets that I don't think Superman in the trailer would make much of a difference

 

[FunkMiller]

There's enough already to sell tickets that I don't think Superman in the trailer would make much of a difference.

I get it, people love footage and trailers when anticipating a film, so of course you'd like to see Superman involved somehow, but sometimes patience pays off.

You see, you say that, but I'm not entirely sure it's such a given. As far as I'm concerned, JL needs all the help it can get to appeal to a GA that was by and large put off of BvS. Let's face it, the buzz coming out of that movie's release was not positive. I think it's a mistake to completely leave Superman out of the promo for JL. This movie is not a guaranteed slam dunk by any means. While I agree that revealing too much of Superman's return would be a big mistake, I also think that not featuring him at all is also a bad move...

 

[batfreakforever]

Actually, this would make the most sense, narrative-wise for the story as it's been established. It would be bloody awful, but it would still make sense. All that blather about Lois being the key, evil Superman in the Knightmare Sequence, etc. I know people say that because Flash changed the timeline, we won't get evil Superman, but I still think it's highly likely, given the way Snyder goes about things. This would also fit in with the lack of Superman in any promo material. If you're going to make him the antagonist, then you would keep him seperate from the rest of the League, wouldn't you?

That makes sense.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

You see, you say that, but I'm not entirely sure it's such a given. As far as I'm concerned, JL needs all the help it can get to appeal to a GA that was by and large put off of BvS. Let's face it, the buzz coming out of that movie's release was not positive. I think it's a mistake to completely leave Superman out of the promo for JL. This movie is not a guaranteed slam dunk by any means. While I agree that revealing too much of Superman's return would be a big mistake, I also think that not featuring him at all is also a bad move...

Yeah, that's a very fair point, and also the financiers just want to get the most back out of their investment, don't really care how the promotion affects people's experience in the theater, so they would probably go with the "better safe than sorry" promotional philosophy. Which is why I'll be very surprised if we get all the way to opening night without seeing Superman in a trailer, in some capacity.

What could work out for all parties is if they had a good emotional scene (something that shows a good part of Clark as a person) between Superman and Lois that took place before his death, that Lois is reminiscing about. Start the trailer out with that, then show a close up of Lois being taken out of her thoughts maybe Perry White is calling her name, or she's holding something of Clark's. Then the trailer goes forward with the focus on the other characters



I think it would be good in the trailer to build up that World Without A Superman feel, that shows how he has inspired people. That was one of my favorite story arcs as a kid (I had all three TPBs, Death, World Without, and Return), because it did a good job of showing you the importance of Superman, and the way he impacted and inspired ordinary people. So why not use the trailers to emphasize that point?

 

[batfreakforever]

Completely agree, but given that we all know Superman is in this film, why not at least tease him in the promo material? After all, he's extremely popular. It'd help build hype.

...unless they're going evil with him, as I say in my above point.

Maybe tease us with his music or shadow or a line by someone else that nods to Superman in a trailer. Something but not his actual presence.

 

[kguillou]

Case in point, I went to go see Fast 8 last night and they played the JL trailer ( which was AMAZING in Imax btw) with a bunch of friends, and one of my friends who loved the trailer's first reaction was "where's the main guy, where's Superman?!" This is someone who isnt a comic book fan, who liked but didnt love BvS, basically a general movie goer. The trailer immediately had him thinking about Superman. This is exactly what its supposed to do, this is what the marketing is all about, make people ask "where's Superman?"

 

[The Endless]

Well, if your Dad said ''Let those kids to die'' instead of actually giving a good advice about keeping your secret and encorauge you into being a good person instead of making yourself feel bad because you did a good thing, you'd be a bit f'ed up as well.
PD: Mom doesn't really do that good of a job either with saying he doesn't own the world anything...except you know, it's the same world that hosted him his whole life, the one he lived, the one that had people who took care of him as a baby. If anything he owes it a lot taking in count the Kryptonians invaded because he was there but I don't know what he did after that to enmend it, mostly because they never tell us or show us as far as I remember.

Yea, when Martha says "you don't owe this world a thing" I was just baffled.

To borrow a phrase from another superhero "with great power comes great responsibility". Having the power to help but choosing not to makes you a villain as far as I'm concerned.

And yea considering Zod and Co only came to Earth because of Kal... he owes the world big time.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Actually, this would make the most sense, narrative-wise for the story as it's been established. It would be bloody awful, but it would still make sense. All that blather about Lois being the key, evil Superman in the Knightmare Sequence, etc. I know people say that because Flash changed the timeline, we won't get evil Superman, but I still think it's highly likely, given the way Snyder goes about things. This would also fit in with the lack of Superman in any promo material. If you're going to make him the antagonist, then you would keep him seperate from the rest of the League, wouldn't you?

I would think the whole Knightmare sequence thing is going to get focus later on in the DCEU, after JL establishes the characters, it will probably have more to do with Flash's movie and JL2. But, I really have no idea if they plan on revisiting that or not. It had be in the movie for a reason, and I don't think Flash did enough to change the timeline when he visited Bruce in BvS. It's tough to write a good time travel story when you have so many moving parts like the DCEU, but it can be really rewarding for the audience, if it's done cleverly. So I hope they've really got that mapped out, and weren't just throwing it in BvS without a long term plan.



Btw, if anybody enjoys time travel stuff, there's a low budget foreign film called TimeCrimes that is really worth checking out. Can't get into it without spoiling anything, but it's one of the most clever, well thought out, mind warping TT film that really fits the past, present, and future together in a big, singular puzzle, no alternate timelines or changing the past.

 

[FunkMiller]

Case in point, I went to go see Fast 8 last night and they played the JL trailer ( which was AMAZING in Imax btw) with a bunch of friends, and one of my friends who loved the trailer's first reaction was "where's the main guy, where's Superman?!" This is someone who isnt a comic book fan, who liked but didnt love BvS, basically a general movie goer. The trailer immediately had him thinking about Superman. This is exactly what its supposed to do, this is what the marketing is all about, make people ask "where's Superman?"

You want to hope that excluding Superman doesn't stop people like him going and seeing the movie then... there's every danger right now that the GA may interpret that the complete lack of Superman in the promo material means he's not in the movie at all.

 

[kguillou]

Yea, when Martha says "you don't owe this world a thing" I was just baffled.

To borrow a phrase from another superhero "with great power comes pgreat responsibility". Having the power to help but choosing not to makes you a villain as far as I'm concerned.

And yea considering Zod and Co only came to Earth because of Kal... he owes the world big time.

But hows that his fault though? Its not his fault Zod came to earth and wreaked havoc. Also, I would think a mother who loves her child and who only really cares about her child's well being would say exactly that to her son. Martha would be proud of Kal whatever he chose but, as she made clear in Mos, she just doesnt want her son taken away from her.

 

[AvegningSpider]

But hows that his fault though? Its not his fault Zod came to earth and wreaked havoc.

I beg to differ. Yeah, it's not his fault that some a-h*** comes to Earth, he doesn't have super-mindcontrol ala Silver Age.
But as far as I know, he is partly responsable for the death of people and the destruction of a whole city, plus the guy who came to invade (who I might say, besides that ''NO!!!'', his death didn't affect him at all taking in count a few scenes later, he was short-talking the general and called hot by Carol Ferris, almost if the death didn't happen.)

 

[kguillou]

Respectfully, I just don't agree with that notion and I don't see how Kal could've done any different to help. Zod came to earth for him. He willingly gave himself up so that Zod would leave earth alone then found out his intention was to terraform earth so he needed to stop them. He needed to both destroy the world engine and physically overcome a Kryptonian general who is superior to him in every way.

 

[AvegningSpider]

Respectfully, I just don't agree with that notion and I don't see how Kal could've done any different to help. Zod came to earth for him. He willingly gave himself up so that Zod would leave earth alone then found out his intention was to terraform earth so he needed to stop them. He needed to both destroy the world engine and physically overcome a Kryptonian general who is superior to him in every way.

Then if he needed to best someone who is superior to him and taking in count himself (someone who isn't trained) is able to do such destruction, then why didn't he thought: ''Oh c*** baskets, I have to take this guy ANYWHERE but here'' taking in count that this guy is as powerful as himself and with training.

 

[odilonredon]

Yea, when Martha says "you don't owe this world a thing" I was just baffled.

To borrow a phrase from another superhero "with great power comes great responsibility". Having the power to help but choosing not to makes you a villain as far as I'm concerned.

all of that stuff probably springs from from snyder being a big ayn rand fan.

and yeah it is baffling, objectivism is completely incompatible with the traditional idea of who superman is, not to mention just a garbage world view in the more general sense (imo)

 

[jmc]

Yeah, that's a very fair point, and also the financiers just want to get the most back out of their investment, don't really care how the promotion affects people's experience in the theater, so they would probably go with the "better safe than sorry" promotional philosophy. Which is why I'll be very surprised if we get all the way to opening night without seeing Superman in a trailer, in some capacity.

What could work out for all parties is if they had a good emotional scene (something that shows a good part of Clark as a person) between Superman and Lois that took place before his death, that Lois is reminiscing about. Start the trailer out with that, then show a close up of Lois being taken out of her thoughts maybe Perry White is calling her name, or she's holding something of Clark's. Then the trailer goes forward with the focus on the other characters



I think it would be good in the trailer to build up that World Without A Superman feel, that shows how he has inspired people. That was one of my favorite story arcs as a kid (I had all three TPBs, Death, World Without, and Return), because it did a good job of showing you the importance of Superman, and the way he impacted and inspired ordinary people. So why not use the trailers to emphasize that point?

That all depends on what exactly they've shot though. For all we know there's going to be little exploration of just how much of an impact he had to the world. I for one have absolutely no idea how they are going to treat Superman in this film.

 

[jmc]

Case in point, I went to go see Fast 8 last night and they played the JL trailer ( which was AMAZING in Imax btw) with a bunch of friends, and one of my friends who loved the trailer's first reaction was "where's the main guy, where's Superman?!" This is someone who isnt a comic book fan, who liked but didnt love BvS, basically a general movie goer. The trailer immediately had him thinking about Superman. This is exactly what its supposed to do, this is what the marketing is all about, make people ask "where's Superman?"

That's not what the marketing is about in this trailer though. It's not about 'where's Superman?', it's about setting the tone for the movie. A 'Where's Superman' campaign would have directly made mention of the characters absence. Anybody asking that question is asking it in spite of the trailer, not because the trailer is addressing it.