Is there too much division in America?

I'll take that as an endorsement for the resurrection of segregation, then :up:

Funny how you can read into what I said and get that conclusion. My point is simple, if you want your constitutional rights respected, then start respecting those of others. If you don't, then don't expect anyone to give a fig about yours.
 
Are you seriously trying to equate homosexuality with heterosexuality. Somewhere there are a bunch of biologists laughing. That said, of course I didn't choose my sexuality. But if I engage in heterosexual sex, it also is a behavior. What's you're point?
Like I said, I'm a Libertarian. I find it unusual, that someone, who didn't choose their Sexuality, could deride another for their own personal choice or lifestyle, solely based on an activity that doesn't harm or fraud anyone else without consent.

What people do by themselves, to themselves, or with others with consent, is not anyones business. Now, if they were trying to mandate some sort of law forbidding someone else's rights, then I would have a problem. But, as Jman, while leans left, has not done anything, or said anything, at least to my knowledge, that forbids anyone's rights, I don't know what your problem is.
 
Like I said, I'm a Libertarian. I find it unusual, that someone, who didn't choose their Sexuality, could deride another for their own personal choice or lifestyle, solely based on an activity that doesn't harm or fraud anyone else without consent.

What people do by themselves, to themselves, or with others with consent, is not anyones business. Now, if they were trying to mandate some sort of law forbidding someone else's rights, then I would have a problem. But, as Jman, while leans left, has not done anything, or said anything, at least to my knowledge, that forbids anyone's rights, I don't know what your problem is.

But the fact is that they do just that, in general I mean. The support of the progressive tax and opposition to 2nd amendment rights are just 2 examples of it. I don't know about Jman personally but my comments are directed at the gay community and other communities as a whole. And that is the problem I have with them.

BTW, I tend to be Libertarian myself on many issues.
 
Funny how you can read into what I said and get that conclusion. My point is simple, if you want your constitutional rights respected, then start respecting those of others. If you don't, then don't expect anyone to give a fig about yours.

First of all, I respect the second amendment as it was defined by the Supreme Court several months ago. As do many gay people, so to lump all of us into one category and use that as a basis to deny us rights is despicable.

Second, you just said that people don't deserve rights if they belong to a group of people who generally support Democrats/ liberal policies. Which, as far as I can tell, is an endorsement of the resurrection of segregation, considering African Americans are a reliable Democratic voter demographic.

It's fine by me if you want to bring segregation back into practice. That's your opinion. It only shows how irrelevant your opinion is on the matter of civil rights.
 
It's divided between people who believe in big government and that big government has all of the answers, and those who believe in the principles of the Constitution, which are that government should have LIMITED power.

and yet you, without question, support the party who over the last 8 years has done nothing but expand government and erode your Constitutional rights? :confused:
 
But the fact is that they do just that, in general I mean. The support of the progressive tax and opposition to 2nd amendment rights are just 2 examples of it. I don't know about Jman personally but my comments are directed at the gay community and other communities as a whole. And that is the problem I have with them.

BTW, I tend to be Libertarian myself on many issues.
As you can see from the Many, Many references to the FairTax around on my post, you can see I agree with you about our Current Tax Code and how it not only should, but NEEDS, to be abolished, and I certainly agree with you on the issue with Firearms and the 2nd Amendment in general. I need them.

My issue is that you need to talk to them (Liberals) about why their ideology is wrong. Not their Lifestyle. Because, you said it yourself, you tend to be Libertarian. Respect their Lifestyle, hit them in their Ideology.
 
First of all, I respect the second amendment as it was defined by the Supreme Court several months ago. As do many gay people, so to lump all of us into one category and use that as a basis to deny us rights is despicable.

I'm speaking of the majority of your group(gays). Not you specifically as I mentioned in another post above. You're right that many gay people support it as you do. The fact remains that most don't, just like most liberals in general(gay or not) don't.

Second, you just said that people don't deserve rights if they belong to a group of people who generally support Democrats/ liberal policies. Which, as far as I can tell, is an endorsement of the resurrection of segregation, considering African Americans are a reliable Democratic voter demographic.

It's fine by me if you want to bring segregation back into practice. That's your opinion. It only shows how irrelevant your opinion is on the matter of civil rights.

I believe the gist of what I actually said was that they have no basis for an arguement about their own rights being trampled on whilst they do the very same thing to others. I never said they don't deserve their rights.
 
As you can see from the Many, Many references to the FairTax around on my post, you can see I agree with you about our Current Tax Code and how it not only should, but NEEDS, to be abolished, and I certainly agree with you on the issue with Firearms and the 2nd Amendment in general. I need them.

My issue is that you need to talk to them (Liberals) about why their ideology is wrong. Not their Lifestyle. Because, you said it yourself, you tend to be Libertarian. Respect their Lifestyle, hit them in their Ideology.

I thought that was what I was attempting to do. Maybe I didn't sugar-coat it enough or show proper sensitivity. I tend to do that sometimes. Never once did I refer to their lifestyle as wrong/immoral or whatever. As I said before, I'm fine with gay marriage. Doesn't affect me. But if they expect me to support their cause then there needs to be some reciprocation.
 
I'm speaking of the majority of your group(gays). Not you specifically as I mentioned in another post above. You're right that many gay people support it as you do. The fact remains that most don't, just like most liberals in general(gay or not) don't.

Oh, so even though many gay people actually make rational decisions when it comes to voting, they deserve to be punished because those decisions may end up with the majority of gays voting for a Democratic candidate. I see.

Hmm, so I guess that means you think we should deny heterosexuals the right to marry, considering over half the marriages in this country end up in a divorce. They make bad decisions, those heterosexuals... why should we let them marry, even though many of them take marriage seriously?

I believe the gist of what I actually said was that they have no basis for an arguement about their own rights being trampled on whilst they do the very same thing to others. I never said they don't deserve their rights.

But you said that gays don't deserve rights because the majority of gay people support liberals. You even said you were voting for Proposition 8 in California because gays support liberal policies, meaning you want to deny the right of homosexuals to marry because 80% of homosexuals support the Democratic Party.

If a measure was on the ballot which would force African Americans to sit at the back of the bus and only eat at KFC, I must assume you would vote in favor of that proposition, because you don't think that a group of people which overwhelmingly supports the Democratic Party deserves rights.
 
I thought that was what I was attempting to do. Maybe I didn't sugar-coat it enough or show proper sensitivity. I tend to do that sometimes. Never once did I refer to their lifestyle as wrong/immoral or whatever. As I said before, I'm fine with gay marriage. Doesn't affect me. But if they expect me to support their cause then there needs to be some reciprocation.

I don't put out on the first date :o
 
I thought that was what I was attempting to do. Maybe I didn't sugar-coat it enough or show proper sensitivity. I tend to do that sometimes. Never once did I refer to their lifestyle as wrong/immoral or whatever. As I said before, I'm fine with gay marriage. Doesn't affect me. But if they expect me to support their cause then there needs to be some reciprocation.

and I thought I was selfish
 
^You say that like being selfish is a bad thing. I happen to not agree. It's the most natural thing in the world.

Jman, I'm tired and I'm going to bed. I'll respond tomorrow. Needless to say you're still taking me out of context, but I'll get to that later.
 
Wow... the human race never ceases to amaze me.

Only content in your life when someone else has less than you. :yay:
 
^You say that like being selfish is a bad thing. I happen to not agree. It's the most natural thing in the world.

I have no problem with someone being selfish.

Even though I lack a reason why marriage will benefit me, doesn't mean that I'm going to stop someone from getting married.
 
No, because they support unconstitutional practices themselves(so do most african americans btw) they're claim that they're constitutional rights be acknowledged doesn't hold the impetus it otherwise would. And I'm not just talking about taxes. There's the 2nd amendment as well which most libs would love to erase from the constitution. If they're gonna act like hypocrites, then I really don't care what crap they have to live with.

Would you care explaining that one?
 
Jman, I'm tired and I'm going to bed. I'll respond tomorrow. Needless to say you're still taking me out of context, but I'll get to that later.

No, I understand exactly what you are saying. You believe that people who vote differently than you don't deserve to be treated with the same respect as those who agree with you. Like many right wingers out there, you have taken this divisive, snobbish attitude towards liberals SOLELY because they have different values than you have. "This voter supports gun control, therefore he shouldn't be considered a citizen or expect me to care about him." Funny how that mirrors a statement made by George H.W. Bush when he was in office, when he stated that atheists shouldn't be considered American precisely because they don't believe in God, or a statement made by Sarah Palin earlier this campaign, who said that the real America is in small towns across this country, because city folk don't have the same values or patriotism as small town Americans.

I consider this line of thinking to be the epitome of ignorance which has crapped all over the electoral system in this country in recent years. I tend to think of voters as intelligent, well-informed individuals who mean well and vote because they want what's best for this country. Well, you really have proven the cynicism I have gathered throughout this election, that a very vocal, ignorant, reasonless group of voters still exist who will ultimately have more say than the "ideal" voter I listed above.

I don't care what party you are, I don't care what your personal beliefs are. But I would NEVER vote to deny rights to a conservative voter demographic because I disagree with how they vote. I would never say that Christianity should be wiped out in this country because the majority of Christians support the Republican Party-- which itself has trampled all over the Constitution in the past eight years, denying the right to a fair trial to dozens of Muslim Americans after 9/11, arresting people solely because he or she said the words "bomb" and "Bush" in the same telephone call, or trying to deny freedom of speech and expression by promoting a Constitutional amendment which would ban flag burning and another which would ban gay marriage.

For you to to lump every single homosexual or African American into one category and then to chastise them because their voter demographics tend to support the Democratic Party is absolutely irresponsible. If you disagreed with gay marriage on ideological grounds, I would wholeheartedly understand your rationale for voting YES on Proposition 8. Our argument would have been over a long time ago. But no, you even ADMITTED that you don't care if gays get married. So you took it a step further by shining a light on what little strain of intellectual thought you have, claiming that you are voting YES on Proposition 8 because gays are usually liberal and they support the Democratic Party. Nothing based on ideology, nothing soundly based in an ideological argument-- but a decisions solely made because you want to "stick it to the gays" for voting for the Democratic Party.

People like you shouldn't be able to vote at all. I never thought I'd say this, but Plato, sadly, had a point. This is what our democracy is becoming-- power in the hands of idiots.

superrolleyesua2.gif
 
When people are extremely rigid and intolerant regarding laws, constitutions, religion, ideas in general, then we have fundamentalists, extremists from left or right, who can't accept a middle ground, a compromise to help build a better society for everybody, is their way or nothing, which is completely wrong.
 
^Maybe they should have, if it was so important to them. I really don't care since I don't consider gays a minority the same as oh, say Black people are or Jewish people are. To me gays are people who choose to engage in what has for most of history been considered a act that is taboo. But it's still a behavior. No one chooses their ethnicity thus it should not in any way be held against them. What the people of this country need to do officially is determine what category they want to place homosexuals in. Settle this already, people!

Why would someone choose to be ostricized ? Why would someone choose to be a second class citizen? Why would someone choose to be part of a group actively hunted and killed?

Why?



:thing: :doom: :thing:
 
I think people have it in their heads that anyone who doesn't agree with them on a political standpoint is a bad person....attack ads have contributed as well as other factors...We have forgotten how to talk TO each other and now talk AT each other....
 
To me gays are people who choose to engage in what has for most of history been considered a act that is taboo. But it's still a behavior. No one chooses their ethnicity thus it should not in any way be held against them.

You're not gay, so who the hell cares what gays are to you?

I think I'm just a little bit more qualified to say if homosexuality is a choice than a heterosexual is.
 
You're not gay, so who the hell cares what gays are to you?

I think I'm just a little bit more qualified to say if homosexuality is a choice than a heterosexual is.

I don't think anyone on either side, gay or straight, can say that 100 percent of gay people choose to be gay, or that 100 percent of people are born gay...I think it's both IMO....but to the whole division thing....we get very wrapped up in the labels and use those labels to lessen the people we don't agree with....
 
Remember when America was a whole country. A country that stood up for themselves? So what do you guys think? Will America ever be the same? will it ever be united again?

I don't remember when America was a whole country nor have I ever read from history where it ever was. America has never been united nor do I want America to ever be the same. The same for who?

I want this country to keep progressing until it fulfils the promise of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Also what is your definition of United? Or better yet what is your defintion of the United States of America?
 
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