Revenge of the Fallen Jazz to Return in Transformers 2!

[Avangarde]

I don't think 4-5 is that unrealistic of a number.

What, total or new? That would be like 9 Autobots squeezed into on movie, not forgetting there will be a new bunch of Decepticons to replace the ones that died in the first movie. IMHO 2 new Autobots would be plenty. Keep in mind that we didn't get enought development for the original 5.

 

[The Joker_1000]

Agreed. If Jazz is returning, we only need two more new Autobots. Three & more would be too much for the next movie, especially since the characters weren't developed that much.

 

[Chris B]

What, total or new? That would be like 9 Autobots squeezed into on movie, not forgetting there will be a new bunch of Decepticons to replace the ones that died in the first movie. IMHO 2 new Autobots would be plenty. Keep in mind that we didn't get enought development for the original 5.

I see what you're saying, though I don't entirely agree. I think that even with 9-10 Autobots, you could still have those character moments that are a reflection upon that character's persona, especially if the film is 2 1/2-3 hours long. Not every TF neccesarily needs to be a fully developed character, IMO.

 

[Chris B]

I think the piece of the Allspark that Prime took out of Megatron chest could be used to explain how Jazz is brought back.

I'm not sure if that is a good way to approach it. I think doing that would creat a sense that as long as the Autobots have that fragment they can bring back dead comrades, which would make any future Autobot deaths meaningless because people will just think that the character can easily be brought back.

I think something along the lines of where they saw that Jazz's spark was still intact would be better. But they would still have to approach it the right way.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I see what you're saying, though I don't entirely agree. I think that even with 9-10 Autobots, you could still have those character moments that are a reflection upon that character's persona, especially if the film is 2 1/2-3 hours long. Not every TF neccesarily needs to be a fully developed character, IMO.

No not every character has to be fully developed but none of the Autobots in the last film were fully developed in the first place.Bumblebee came the closest followed by Prime but the still were not fully developed characters.

And remember it's a Bay film.....even in a 2 1/2 hours were not going to get mush of a chance to see much development in the Autobots because Bay is going to first focuse on the human characters then the army and explosions and last Autobot characters.

So for anybody who really wants to see more then 3 new Autobots in the new film dont expect to see any Autobot or Decepticon character development.

 

[Spider-Vader]

Bay said the Transformers will have a bigger role, also since they're hanging out with Sam we should see them more anyway.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Bay said the Transformers will have a bigger role, also since they're hanging out with Sam we should see them more anyway.

Bay also said that the Transformers were going to have a big role in the first film with plenty of characteraztion and we know how that turned out.

And hanging out with Sam will only really increase'es the amount of screne time they'll get not their character devlopment.To hang with Sam they'll have to remain in alt [car] mode most of the time.How's that going to help them in the character devlopment department.

 

[Avangarde]

I see what you're saying, though I don't entirely agree. I think that even with 9-10 Autobots, you could still have those character moments that are a reflection upon that character's persona, especially if the film is 2 1/2-3 hours long. Not every TF neccesarily needs to be a fully developed character, IMO.

Can you honestly say that all the TF's in the first movie got enough development?

 

[The Joker_1000]

None of them got enough time, at least not enough for character development. Btw, 9-10 Autobots this early is too much for one movie in which the characters haven't been developed too well.

 

[Chris B]

Can you honestly say that all the TF's in the first movie got enough development?

I would agree that they didn't, but I think that a large part of the problem was that they had to establish the TF's themselves. Now that they have done that, TF2 shouldn't have that problem.

Honestly, I don't care how many new Autobots are introduced. For me, as long as Prowl, Wheeljack, and Mirage make the cut, I don't care.

 

[The Joker_1000]

I doubt they will in the second movie. Maybe in the third we'll get more Autobots, but not in the second movie. The only TF's we'll get will be new Decepticons to replace the ones who died in the first movie.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I would agree that they didn't, but I think that a large part of the problem was that they had to establish the TF's themselves. Now that they have done that, TF2 shouldn't have that problem.

I'm sorry I have to disagree.I think the reason we didnt see much character in the robots that we got to see in the first film and the reason we still wont see much character in any of the robots in the next film is because Bay makes block buster summer movies.

In all the years that I've seen Bay movies none were really character driven.The only times that we see and character development in his films is when the we're seeing a actor that is very proficiant at bringing a characters motovations to the forfront with out direction.

 

[November Rain]

I think the piece of the Allspark that Prime took out of Megatron chest could be used to explain how Jazz is brought back.

It was obviously focussed on in that manner at the end of the film. use it to bring back jazz and megs and have it run out of juice...

voila...

actually, have it create the dinobots on earth as well...

starscream goes to get constructicons and soundwave...

so autobots are now

prime
jazz
ratchet
ironhide
bumblebee
grimlock
swoop
sludge
slag


decepticons are now

megatron
starscream
soundwave
brawl
scorpnok
scrapper
scavenger
mixmaster
hook

9 each, everyone is happy

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

It was obviously focussed on in that manner at the end of the film. use it to bring back jazz and megs and have it run out of juice...

voila...

actually, have it create the dinobots on earth as well...

starscream goes to get constructicons and soundwave...

so autobots are now

prime
jazz
ratchet
ironhide
bumblebee
grimlock
swoop
sludge
slag


decepticons are now

megatron
starscream
soundwave
brawl
scorpnok
scrapper
scavenger
mixmaster
hook

9 each, everyone is happy

But why only have 4 of the Dinobots and 4 uf the Constructions???If your going to as far as your list sugests why not finish off the teams???And why bring back Brawl?

 

[November Rain]

bonecrusher died.

grimlock is leader and best known, also has the flagship t-rex
swoop is flying adversary, can bring some great scenes with starscream
sludge and stag are triceratops and also a brontasaurus which are what people think about when you say dinosaurs

no need for a steggasaurus as well. THe dinobots were originally a threesome so i could cut it down to the original set but i would need to include swoop and swap him for someone because of a potentially great scene with starscream.

as for brawl, i'm fairly sure he didnt die so it makes sense to work with whats left on earth instead of bringing in new ones.

 

[Avangarde]

I would agree that they didn't, but I think that a large part of the problem was that they had to establish the TF's themselves. Now that they have done that, TF2 shouldn't have that problem.

Honestly, I don't care how many new Autobots are introduced. For me, as long as Prowl, Wheeljack, and Mirage make the cut, I don't care.

Well you see, thats the problem. I would love to see my two fav TF's, Prowl and Shockwave in the next movie, but not if they will be underdeveloped rubbish.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

bonecrusher died.

And????Your list has two other dead robots on it.

And your still missing one Construction.Ohhhhh you forgot that there were 6 Constructions didnt you?????

grimlock is leader and best known, also has the flagship t-rex
swoop is flying adversary, can bring some great scenes with starscream
sludge and stag are triceratops and also a brontasaurus which are what people think about when you say dinosaurs

no need for a steggasaurus as well. THe dinobots were originally a threesome so i could cut it down to the original set but i would need to include swoop and swap him for someone because of a potentially great scene with starscream.

Thats your opinion I say if your going to bring in 4 of a team of 5 you might as well bring in all 5.

as for brawl, i'm fairly sure he didnt die so it makes sense to work with whats left on earth instead of bringing in new ones.

I'm pretty sure Brawl/Deverstator did die.But your bringing back Jazz in your list to so its not a hard strech to bring back an other dead guy.....but tell me how do you thing the use of the name Deverstator in the first film will effect the 2nd film if they bring in the rest of the Constructions???

 

[Chris B]

I'm sorry I have to disagree.I think the reason we didnt see much character in the robots that we got to see in the first film and the reason we still wont see much character in any of the robots in the next film is because Bay makes block buster summer movies.

In all the years that I've seen Bay movies none were really character driven.The only times that we see and character development in his films is when the we're seeing a actor that is very proficiant at bringing a characters motovations to the forfront with out direction.

I would disagree in that I think that Autobots did have character. Most of Bumblebee's scenes, Jazz wanting to save him, Ironhide questioning why they were protecting humans, and Optimus explaining why they were stood out to me. Granted, they didn't have as much development as they should've, but the things I mentioned are to me good springboards to build on that in the sequel.

 

[Chris B]

Well you see, thats the problem. I would love to see my two fav TF's, Prowl and Shockwave in the next movie, but not if they will be underdeveloped rubbish.

But TF2 wont have the problem of having to expain the basics to non-fans. Leaving room for more TF development.

 

[Raiden]

If they bring Jazz back, I hope they will do the same for other demised Decepticons, like Blackout, Brawl, and esp. Megatron.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I would disagree in that I think that Autobots did have character. Most of Bumblebee's scenes, Jazz wanting to save him, Ironhide questioning why they were protecting humans, and Optimus explaining why they were stood out to me. Granted, they didn't have as much development as they should've, but the things I mentioned are to me good springboards to build on that in the sequel.

Bumblebee and Prime are the only bots to even get a semblance of character in the film and even thats saying a lot.None of the non fans walked away from that film truly understanding what kind of person Prime was.

I heard people as they walked out of the theature asking questions like "why wasnt Prime more ruthless in the fight with Megatron?", "why was Megatron so ubsessed with tracking down the cube?" "why did he want to take over the universe?" "why did Jazz speek with a black slang?" "why did Megatron seemed so anoyed by Starscream's small failur in getting the cube?"

The reasons why non-fans had these questions was because they didnt explain the motovations of the characters.....how Prime was very simular to Abe Lincoln and had no real tast for war....or that Jazz was intrigued by human culture or that Starscream had been trying to back stab his way into command of the Decepticons for centuries.

I could go on but I'll be here all night.Plan and simple the bots were givven very little character in the film.Having them tell a few jokes and showing some conseren for a fallen comrad humanizes's them and give the imprestion of character but its not the same thing as trully getting to know what drives and motovates the character.

But TF2 wont have the problem of having to expain the basics to non-fans. Leaving room for more TF development.

They really didnt explain the "basics to non-fans" in the first film.The only explaining they did was the opening narration and the 3 minutes of dialog between Prime and Sam.

 

[Chris B]

Bumblebee and Prime are the only bots to even get a semblance of character in the film and even thats saying a lot.None of the non fans walked away from that film truly understanding what kind of person Prime was.

I heard people as they walked out of the theature asking questions like "why wasnt Prime more ruthless in the fight with Megatron?", "why was Megatron so ubsessed with tracking down the cube?" "why did he want to take over the universe?" "why did Jazz speek with a black slang?" "why did Megatron seemed so anoyed by Starscream's small failur in getting the cube?"

The reasons why non-fans had these questions was because they didnt explain the motovations of the characters.....how Prime was very simular to Abe Lincoln and had no real tast for war....or that Jazz was intrigued by human culture or that Starscream had been trying to back stab his way into command of the Decepticons for centuries.

I could go on but I'll be here all night.Plan and simple the bots were givven very little character in the film.Having them tell a few jokes and showing some conseren for a fallen comrad humanizes's them and give the imprestion of character but its not the same thing as trully getting to know what drives and motovates the character.

The thing is with an ensemble film like Transformers, it unrealisitc to expect every single character to be fully developed. Plus, keep in mind that the way the film was set-up by being told from the human perspective, it was hard to characterize the TF's. That not to say that I wouldn't have liked to seen the extra TF dialouge that Orci and Kurtzman said that they wrote, but ended up getting cut from the film. But like I said before, I think that there were moments in the film that were reflection on the characters' personalities, though mostly the Autobots, so I've never entirely agree with the sentiment that they were devoid of any character.

They really didnt explain the "basics to non-fans" in the first film.The only explaining they did was the opening narration and the 3 minutes of dialog between Prime and Sam.

What I meant by that is that in the first they had to set-up the story over the long run by explaing why the Autobots and Decepticons are at war and why they've come to Earth. The sequel will be able to jump right into the story.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The thing is with an ensemble film like Transformers, it unrealisitc to expect every single character to be fully developed. Plus, keep in mind that the way the film was set-up by being told from the human perspective, it was hard to characterize the TF's. That not to say that I wouldn't have liked to seen the extra TF dialouge that Orci and Kurtzman said that they wrote, but ended up getting cut from the film. But like I said before, I think that there were moments in the film that were reflection on the characters' personalities, though mostly the Autobots, so I've never entirely agree with the sentiment that they were devoid of any character.

I'm sorry but thats a cop-out.Bays Transformers didnt have one single character that was fully developed.Not one of the characters was fully developed.....I'm sorry I repeated myself but its just the truth.Even Bumblebee that got the most development was still lacking in some area's.Dont get me wrong I loved the movie but it could have been done a hell of a lot better.I can name you at least 4 otherensemble film that were realeased in the last 10 years that have plenty of character development.

What I meant by that is that in the first they had to set-up the story over the long run by explaing why the Autobots and Decepticons are at war and why they've come to Earth. The sequel will be able to jump right into the story.

But thats my point.They explained why they were at war and why they came to earth and all it took was at most 10 minutes of screan time.....thats it.I've timed it.They didnt even spend 1/4 of the film on the "set-up" as you called it.

And I doubt that it will be any different in the 2nd film as long as Bay continues to make movies the way he does.We'll get a great block buster movie with plenty of action but no character.

 

[Chris B]

I'm sorry but thats a cop-out.Bays Transformers didnt have one single character that was fully developed.Not one of the characters was fully developed.....I'm sorry I repeated myself but its just the truth.Even Bumblebee that got the most development was still lacking in some area's.Dont get me wrong I loved the movie but it could have been done a hell of a lot better.I can name you at least 4 otherensemble film that were realeased in the last 10 years that have plenty of character development.

But I'm not saying that the TF's were fully developed characters. I would agree that they were lacking in that area, but all I'm saying is that I think that there some good character moments that were a nice reflection upon the character. And like you have been saying, that doesn't equal a fully developed character. Which I would agree with. I should also add that with the ensemble movie comment, I was saying that its only inevitable that some of the characters will be better developed than the others. The X-Men movies are a good example of that.

But thats my point.They explained why they were at war and why they came to earth and all it took was at most 10 minutes of screan time.....thats it.I've timed it.They didnt even spend 1/4 of the film on the "set-up" as you called it.

And I doubt that it will be any different in the 2nd film as long as Bay continues to make movies the way he does.We'll get a great block buster movie with plenty of action but no character.

I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying in that regard. The film was an introductory story that had to set-up the plot in the long run. The sequel wont have to do that because they have established that. Think of the first two Spider-Man movies. The first film had to explain how and why Peter Parker is Spider-Man and his relationship with the other characters. The second film jumped right into the characters and story since the origin and character interactions had been established.

I don't really agree with the sentiment that we wont see more developemt for the TF's because I think the character moments in the first film provide a good springboard to that, as well as the fact that the sequel will have a much bigger budget. I think we'll get more scenes like the one with the Autobots at the observatory, where there were no humans present, for both factions

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

But I'm not saying that the TF's were fully developed characters. I would agree that they were lacking in that area, but all I'm saying is that I think that there some good character moments that were a nice reflection upon the character. And like you have been saying, that doesn't equal a fully developed character. Which I would agree with. I should also add that with the ensemble movie comment, I was saying that its only inevitable that some of the characters will be better developed than the others. The X-Men movies are a good example of that.

But even in the first X-men film the characters of Magneto,Wolverine and Pro-X were almost fully fleshed out.Right from the start you understood these characters and left the film feeling that you knew those's characters.

Even if it wasnt a true to comic interpertation of the characters you knew where they stood in the movies universe.The same cant be said for Bays characters.The only character's in Bay's TF film that we got a feeling for were Sam and that Sector 7 prick guy.And I know thats not what the fans were looking for.

I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying in that regard. The film was an introductory story that had to set-up the plot in the long run. The sequel wont have to do that because they have established that. Think of the first two Spider-Man movies. The first film had to explain how and why Peter Parker is Spider-Man and his relationship with the other characters. The second film jumped right into the characters and story since the origin and character interactions had been established.

I completly understand what your saying....100% ,but I dont think that you realalize that your compairing the film to standerds that it just does not meet.

Useing the 1st Spiderman film for exsample as you just did proves just dont understand how much the Bay TF film fail as an introductory story.

When you left the 1st Spiderman film you understood who Peter was and what motivated him.....you understood what his aunt ment to him and how she felt for Peter.You understood why Peter fell for MJ and how she would someday grow to love him.You understood that Harry was a neglectied son striving for his fathers love and acceptance and how that need for his fathers love would one day turn him against his best friend.You also understood what demonds drove Norman Osborn to his fate.

Thats a true introductory and set-up story.

In Bays movie you were not made to understand why Optimus Prime was the leader.....you could not understand why others would chose to follow him.You got no sence of the relationship between Prime and those under his command.There was almost no understanding as to why the Autobots even felt the responsabilty to the universe to make sure the Decepticon were stoped.

The only thing that was explained was that the Autobots were good and the Decepticon's were evil.....how 80's is that?

And lets not even go into how lacking the Decepticons motivations were.

If you werent a fan of Transformers with a understanding of the characters before the Bay movie you did not walk out of his film with any knid of an understanding of the characters or their motivations.That does not mean you could not enjoy the film.Bay makes a great block buster but he sucks at character driven stories.

I don't really agree with the sentiment that we wont see more developemt for the TF's because I think the character moments in the first film provide a good springboard to that, as well as the fact that the sequel will have a much bigger budget. I think we'll get more scenes like the one with the Autobots at the observatory, where there were no humans present, for both factions

I'll agree that the ground work for some character development has be layed but Bay is not the one to build from that.He's only going to be working on new cooler robots and biger battles with louder explostions.

If I'm wrong then I'll thank god but there isnt one single summer block buster film of Bays that has ever really done anything for the characters in the story.I know his style and I know his history.