Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[javon]

Me too. Well I like Jean, not Phoenix.

 

[Intheknow101]

That's like saying I like Ororo but not Storm.
or I like Logan, but not Wolverine. lol.

 

[javon]

No it isn't....to me.

 

[Exploding Boy]

I think he's trying to say that he likes Jean but not when she is super-powerfull. He dislikes the Phoenix Force when it consumes Jean.

 

[Intheknow101]

I see. I like Jean a lot when she's in control as well. Like during the Green Phoenix years, as well as during New X-Men. But people like the Shiar or Sublime or the HFC keep screwing with her.

 

[javon]

Yeah, I guess thats what I'm saying,lol.

 

[Valechan]

Jean doesn't become Phoenix through all of Time and Space, we've seen other phoenixes in other realities, we've seen other phoenixes in this reality. She never went outside time and space until HCT, and that is an alternate reality even. So... she was not phoenix as a child, she was not phoenix until New X-Men 120... she isn't always Phoenix. How many times did we hear her saying "i'm not Phoenix", she isn't always JEan, always Phoenix.

 

[GL1]

Jean doesn't become Phoenix through all of Time and Space, we've seen other phoenixes in other realities, we've seen other phoenixes in this reality. She never went outside time and space until HCT, and that is an alternate reality even. So... she was not phoenix as a child, she was not phoenix until New X-Men 120... she isn't always Phoenix. How many times did we hear her saying "i'm not Phoenix", she isn't always JEan, always Phoenix.

I agree, but if I say that, they're going to say: "But Jean said in Endsong that I'm always Jean and always the Phoenix." Is this a 'part' of the Phoenix saying this, the entity it/herself? Why would that be said?

 

[javon]

^Thats what I'd like to knoe. That always confused me. And what is Jean doing now? Is she dead?

 

[Optic Rage]

She is gathering herself in the white hot room.

So yes her body is dead...but she is not really.

 

[javon]

Oh. So she's like reparing timelines and damaging demensions and all that?

And won't it be a little stupid for her character to keep coming back? Are they gonna just make her keep coming back from the dead or are they planning on making her go away for good?

 

[Exploding Boy]

Huh?

 

[Intheknow101]

Jean doesn't become Phoenix through all of Time and Space, we've seen other phoenixes in other realities, we've seen other phoenixes in this reality. She never went outside time and space until HCT, and that is an alternate reality even. So... she was not phoenix as a child, she was not phoenix until New X-Men 120... she isn't always Phoenix. How many times did we hear her saying "i'm not Phoenix", she isn't always JEan, always Phoenix.

I draw your attention to the Ultimate, various timelines the Exiles have visited, 1602, AOA, various what if's, Ronin, etc.

Actually the conversation with Quentin after she amputated the universe, shown she's been in the white hot room and done phoenix work at least hundreds of times. Once again in Endsong she mentions she is disinfecting the termids again and again, over and over. Outside of space and time, what what has been, is, and will be. Get it across your head.

The other 'phoenixes' can be explained away as pieces of Jean possessing others as her fragments were scattered across not only the cosmos but time as well. Just like Endsong established. A fragment of Jean entered Emma Frost, and despite Emma not being able to contain the power for very long, she still had a phoenix costume and everything. Yet she wasn't "the Phoenix." Another example is Rachel. Even while unconcious, the fragment that possessed her was able to act and fight Galactus, and took on the form of Jean. And the fragments idea is not new with Endsong. Even Inferno showed that there were parts of Jean that had given life to the lifeless clone body of Maddie Pryor after the parts of Jean that were already there had rejected the tainted memories that were reforming.

 

[javon]

Huh?

Thats what they said at wikipedia. But you know their as fake as Psylocke's eyes,lol. I just thought it was true. But theysaid that when she'sin the white whatever room, she's doing "Phoenix work"-reparing timelines and all of that.

 

[Intheknow101]

Oh. So she's like reparing timelines and damaging demensions and all that?

And won't it be a little stupid for her character to keep coming back? Are they gonna just make her keep coming back from the dead or are they planning on making her go away for good?

She's as "dead" as she can get, which isn't very. Coming back is what a Phoenix does. And really it's no different from the countless other times other characters have come back from the dead whether it be Magneto or Storm. At least Jean has the mythos and origins behind it.

She's currently collecting all her fragmented pieces.

 

[Exploding Boy]

Thats what they said at wikipedia. But you know their as fake as Psylocke's eyes,lol. I just thought it was true. But theysaid that when she'sin the white whatever room, she's doing "Phoenix work"-reparing timelines and all of that.

Oh, you edited your post. I get it now.

It is kind of dumb that she always dies and comes back but she has to come back because she is tied to the Phoenix which is 'Rebirth'

 

[javon]

Is your favorite character Havok Explodingboy?

And really it's no different from the countless other times other characters have come back from the dead whether it be Magneto or Storm. At least Jean has the mythos and origins behind it.

She's currently collecting all her fragmented pieces.

What are you getting mad for? You have already mentioned that Storm and Magneto died so whats the need to mention them now. They shouldn't have even been in the conversation. I can't help if its a dumb idea for her to keep coming alive..she just need to stay her ass dead.

 

[Exploding Boy]

Yeah he is Javon.

The reasons I dont like Jean coming back is that 1) Its so anti-climatic when she dies because she will just come back and 2) she might as well stay dead because she has no place on a team because she is uber-powerfull

 

[javon]

Yeah. She just needs to stay in the cosmos. And I aint even gonna get started on Rachel...

 

[Intheknow101]

Is your favorite character Havok Explodingboy?

What are you getting mad for? You have already mentioned that Storm and Magneto died so whats the need to mention them now. They shouldn't have even been in the conversation. I can't help if its a dumb idea for her to keep coming alive..she just need to stay her ass dead.

How am I "mad"?

I was explaining to you. Bringing up Magneto for example is relevant because he has died and come back even more times than Jean. Even the recent issue of New Avengers have him coming back into power temporarily and then supposedly dying in an explosion again. Yet I don't see people whining about it.

But for someone who's very power is to come back to life (question should be did she ever truly die to begin with since her essence/fragements are always very much alive as even in Endsong she was alive under 60 feet of ice) it's an issue.

 

[americanguy96]

Is Pejo on these boards anymore, he knew everything Phoenix-esque.

 

[HandOfFate]

The other 'phoenixes' can be explained away as pieces of Jean possessing others as her fragments were scattered across not only the cosmos but time as well. Just like Endsong established. A fragment of Jean entered Emma Frost, and despite Emma not being able to contain the power for very long, she still had a phoenix costume and everything. Yet she wasn't "the Phoenix." Another example is Rachel. Even while unconcious, the fragment that possessed her was able to act and fight Galactus, and took on the form of Jean. And the fragments idea is not new with Endsong. Even Inferno showed that there were parts of Jean that had given life to the lifeless clone body of Maddie Pryor after the parts of Jean that were already there had rejected the tainted memories that were reforming.

From what I understand Jean is not the originator of the Phoenix Force, it is a cosmic force that has existed throughout the multi-verse since the dawn of time. In the multi-verse Jean is not always the avatar of the Phoenix Force.

As a matter of fact, it's more then likely that the Phoenix Crops are representatives from other parts of the multi-verse and not fragments of Jean's powers.

If you ask me, the “White Hot Room” seems more in line with the gathering place for members of the Phoenix Crops.

So... Jean was actually Born as just a mutant, but when she became the Phoenix she eventually went outside of time and thus, technically was always the Phoenix. That's understandable, actually. In fact, it makes, or at least allows, both statements true. It is true that Jean BECAME the Phoenix and it is also true that Jean has ALWAYS been Phoenix, since Phoenix is, apparently, not bound by time and the logics thereof.

Cool.

That's the way I see it. The Phoenix Force has always been their and Jean is connect to it outside of time.

While this is all informative and stuff, it would be so cool to find a Phoenix fan who didn't have a hate for Storm. Unfortunately, enjoying Phoenix and her illogical origins and power levels requires a hatred for one of the coolest X-Men around. It's sad, honestly. Again, I wish I could find someone who was both a Storm AND Phoenix fan. Or could love one without hating the other. They are teammates, after all.

I enjoy them both.

 

[Intheknow101]

From what I understand Jean is not the originator of the Phoenix Force, it is a cosmic force that has existed throughout the multi-verse since the dawn of time. In the multi-verse Jean is not always the avatar of the Phoenix Force.

As a matter of fact, it's more then likely that the Phoenix Crops are representatives from other parts of the multi-verse and not fragments of Jean's powers.

If you ask me, the “White Hot Room” seems more in line with the gathering place for members of the Phoenix Crops.


That's the way I see it. The Phoenix Force has always been their and Jean is connect to it outside of time.


I enjoy them both.

We've seen more universes where Jean is Phoenix than not, which tends to show that those that show otherwise follow the path that they're fragments in others.

Everyone living thing eventually enters the white hot room and experiences total absorption. Martha the brain and Wolverine were going to the white hot room to be absorbed but it doesn't mean they are Phoenixes.

And like I said, the beings we have seen with partial phoenix power or even a phoenix costume doesn't mean they're an actual phoenix. Look at Emma who was possessed by a fragment of Jean and even wore a phoenix suit, but she's no phoenix.

Except Jean says "I'm always Jean and I'm always Phoenix" which is true considering she manifested the gold woman form and the phoenix raptor years before the shuttle incident. The Shuttle incident catalyzed her total transformation

 

[Exploding Boy]

Is Pejo on these boards anymore, he knew everything Phoenix-esque.

Nope He left because of the crazy people

 

[HandOfFate]

Do you really think all of these people are fragments of Jean's powers?

We've seen more universes where Jean is Phoenix than not, which tends to show that those that show otherwise follow the path that they're fragments in others.

No, you're assuming that their only fragments of Jean Grey's power. Just becuase we have only seen stories dealing with Jean as the Phoenix Avatar doesn't mean she is the only Phoenix Avatar in the multi-verse. It would be silly to think something like that, when we know it not true. We have seen both Storm and Giruard of the Guardians of the Galaxy both become host of the Phoenix Force in two different universe. AAMOF, Giruard was actually the 9th host of the Phoenix Force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(Guardians_of_the_Galaxy)

IIRC, according to Marvel all "What If" stories are consider alternate universe veiwed by 616 Uatu the Watcher.

And like I said, the beings we have seen with partial phoenix power or even a phoenix costume doesn't mean they're an actual phoenix. Look at Emma who was possessed by a fragment of Jean and even wore a phoenix suit, but she's no phoenix.

Emma was not seen in the White Hot Room wearing a Phoenix custome, so yes she was a fragment of Jean's power but that doesn't mean the others where. Jean is the primary host in the 616 universe but not all universes.