Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[javon]

Why did they even choose Storm for that issue?

 

[BrianWilly]

But it does not explain how Jean, a mutant born at a specific time, has an origin outside of time, thusly, it suggests that while Phoenix and Jean now are one, that they were not always so. Perhaps they were, but it's hard to explain without saying that Phoenix/Jean created Jean Grey, and thus, arranged her parents, yeah her whole lineage, yes, even controlled world events to ensure that Jean Grey would be born.

Intheknow101 has already explained the time paradox quite well, imo, in ways that I hadn't even thought of. The White Hot Room, the birthplace of the Phoenix and everything else, exists outside of time and space. Time has no meaning there, so Jean Grey could be the Phoenix from the very beginning of time right up to the very end. The physical body of the Phoenix, Jean Grey, was born into the timestream at a specific date in the 20th century, yes, but that doesn't really mean anything because, outside of the timestream, she has always existed.

The only thing that makes character traits remain the same is writer preference... it has nothing to do with logic. Infinity is Infinity.

You're talking about character personality and, perhaps, character history. That's not really the same thing as character traits so far as it concerns this discussion. Yes, Storm might be a New York car thief in one reality, but she's still Storm with recognizable Storm traits such as her gender, her race, and her powers. If she was all of a sudden an middle-aged male Asian with laser powers in another reality, I don't think there's any way to logically argue that that's still Storm.

Again, infinite realities. Unless the Phoenix can and does eradicate all realities where Jean never meets the Phoenix Force or where Jean doesn't exist, then those realities, logically, must exist.

But if you're going to assume something is true just because it might be true in some oddball reality 75 degrees displaced from the 616, there's no point at all in trying to put meaning or definitions to anything at all. I could say that Jubilee is actually the true Phoenix since it might be possible in the 3567348752 reality or something, but there's no basis for that. You can't prove a negative with another negative and call it evidence. On the other hand, we know that Jean Grey is the Phoenix in this reality. That is fact, and really the only thing that truly matters. As a bonus, we have evidence showing that she is the Phoenix in multiple other realities. That merely strengthens the notion that she is the Phoenix in this one since her character traits ought to be the same.

So... Phoenix created Jean Grey?

Jean Grey is Phoenix. I understand what you're saying, but the idea of the Phoenix Force actually creating a host for itself, or anything else for that matter, is really looking at it the wrong way. The Phoenix Force is not a person. It's a force. It's a force wielded by a person called the Phoenix, who is Jean Grey. It has no identifiably humane desires, and no personality beyond that which it copied off of its wielder, who is Jean Grey. It doesn't even really have the capacity to perform any actions whatsoever without being bonded to a host; moments where it does, as in Endsong, have always been exceptions to the norm, not the norm itself. The Shi'ar even remark on this, saying that it's bizarre for the Phoenix raptor to manifest without the X-Man Jean Grey. It belongs to her and she belongs to it, and the being known as the Phoenix, who is merely what Jean Grey is called when she accesses the Force, is the one really doing all the work. To say that the Phoenix Force created Jean Grey is like saying that magnetism created Magneto or something.

Now, that is not to say that the Phoenix Force is not sentient. It is. It speaks to Jean Grey periodically, it spoke to Rachel, and it is obviously self-aware, especially regarding its duties. But the Phoenix Force's sentience, stripped of all connection to Jean Grey's life, memories, and personality, is merely comparable to that of a robot or machine. It's like a computer that does what it does when it needs to since that's what it's supposed to do. That's why it needs a host at all, someone to tell the computer what to do.

 

[HandOfFate]

Rachel/Phoenix Vs Necrom

 

[HandOfFate]

 

[HandOfFate]

You're talking about character personality and, perhaps, character history. That's not really the same thing as character traits so far as it concerns this discussion. Yes, Storm might be a New York car thief in one reality, but she's still Storm with recognizable Storm traits such as her gender, her race, and her powers. If she was all of a sudden an middle-aged male Asian with laser powers in another reality, I don't think there's any way to logically argue that that's still Storm.

Cough, Cough, Excuse me.


Now hold on while I go throw up.

But if you're going to assume something is true just because it might be true in some oddball reality 75 degrees displaced from the 616, there's no point at all in trying to put meaning or definitions to anything at all. I could say that Jubilee is actually the true Phoenix since it might be possible in the 3567348752 reality or something, but there's no basis for that. You can't prove a negative with another negative and call it evidence. On the other hand, we know that Jean Grey is the Phoenix in this reality. That is fact, and really the only thing that truly matters. As a bonus, we have evidence showing that she is the Phoenix in multiple other realities. That merely strengthens the notion that she is the Phoenix in this one since her character traits ought to be the same.

Again, she can be the Phoenix Avatar in the 616 universe and maybe 6 million other realities but that still doesn't mean she is the Phoenix Avatar in all of them.

Also, if the Phoenix Crops are Phoenixes from other realities then your wrong.

 

[javon]

Why are they men?

 

[Valechan]

Rachel Phoenix is the best Phoenix of them all

 

[Cosmic Mind]

Hi I am new here.........I think that Jean is the best one, altough Rachel is great........does someone have apic with Jean on White Phoenix Costume from Here Comes Tomorrow storyline??????

 

[BrianWilly]

Here are some, at the bottom: http://hem.passagen.se/hggblom2/phoenix/pics/planetx/pics03.htm

 

[HandOfFate]

It might just be me but I find the white Phoenix look to be the best one.

It could also be Greg Lands artwork

Why are they men?

It’s because of Cosstime or what it is commonly called the multi-verse. There are infinite amounts of different universe and each one has its own unique possibility.

So in one universe, Storm and the X-men are actually men, while in another they could be robots or farm animals. There really no telling how many different variations are out there.

 

[javon]

Thats a little stupid. And in that link above yours handoffate, are those people Phoenixs'?

 

[Cosmic Mind]

Wow!!! Thak you very much BrianWilly!!!! this is cool

 

[Valechan]

Talking about variations... we have StormPhoenix, StormOdin, StormThor, StormMan, yet there seems to be almost no variations of Ms Grey. No one can think of anything x-citing to do with her. Without the Phoenix Force she is nothing

 

[3rdRealitey]

Totally agree.

 

[HandOfFate]

Thats a little stupid. And in that link above yours handoffate, are those people Phoenixs'?

It not stupid as you say. Think about it, in an alternative world

Storm could have grown in power so much that she takes the place of Gaea as the new sprite of the world

Or

She could fight Jean for the power of the Phoenix Force and wins. Later becomes the Dark StormPheonix and eat the sun.

Or

She could marry Thor and they have a child that kills Galactus

Or

After her parents are killed she taken in by her godfather Stephen Strange, who trains her in magical abilities to the point that she becomes the new Sorcerer Supreme

The same thing can be done with Jean. Jean does not always have to be the Phoenix Avatar. She could have easily missed the shuttle flight that started the whole Phoenix Sage in another universe.

Who knows in another universe, Jean could be a normal girl without any power who fall deeply in love with Storm.

It that simple.

And in that link above yours handoffate, are those people Phoenixs'?

No those are the X-Con, alternative version of the X-Men in the multi-verse.

 

[BrianWilly]

Talking about variations... we have StormPhoenix, StormOdin, StormThor, StormMan, yet there seems to be almost no variations of Ms Grey. No one can think of anything x-citing to do with her. Without the Phoenix Force she is nothing

So what you're saying is, Storm needs alternate reality versions of herself in order to be interesting? Wow, way to be harsh towards the woman.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

My brain just went dead after reading stormphoenix and so on and so worth... when push comes to shove, I stand by Jean- all the way. meaning... Jean is Phoenix - always in my mind and eyes and heart.

 

[Valechan]

So what you're saying is, Storm needs alternate reality versions of herself in order to be interesting? Wow, way to be harsh towards the woman.

No, what I'm saying is she is so cool and flexible that writers want to explore any and all aspects of her throughout the multiverse. Something that never gets done with Jean. Name me 1 alternate version of Jean that has a different power or an interesting Phoenix-less story. The only remotely interesting one was Earth 295's, but they ruined it with last year's limited (295 is AOA for the uninitiated)

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

Jean Grey is THE original, the very first X-Woman, AND the best one! She's the most powerful, most beautiful, AND the most complex! Hence, SHE is the most interesting! In the wake of her impact, ALL others pale in comparison, helplessly overshadowed!

So I can empathize with fans of OTHER characters, whose insecurities seem to surface whenever Jean's the topic of discussion. Dont worry, it's OKAY. WE, as Jean fans, are an understanding and benevolent bunch... to a point. Just DON'T piss us off! Be respectful 'cause it's the right thing to do, and BE AFRAID... 'cause if you continue to antagonize, you WILL suffer the consequences! No one, and I mean NO ONE, delivers a verbal beatdown in retaliation... like a Phoenix fan provoked! It'll be a thrashing like no other, I can promise you THAT. Jean Grey RULES! Phoenix RULES! End of story!!!

 

[Valechan]

Keep deluding yourself and avoid talking about alternate Jeans

 

[javon]

lol.

 

[aidol]

well...Rachel is cool, but jean is way better and is the only real phoenix. Rachel, although does not have the full phoenix powers, because of what the phoenix force learned from galactus (that she steals life away from the future), does not know how to fully wield the power of the phoenix, because she almost got beaten by necrom, who has only a fragment of the phoenix, where jean, uses it fully and by fully i mean dark phoenix.

 

[HandOfFate]

well...Rachel is cool, but jean is way better and is the only real phoenix. Rachel, although does not have the full phoenix powers, because of what the phoenix force learned from galactus (that she steals life away from the future), does not know how to fully wield the power of the phoenix, because she almost got beaten by necrom, who has only a fragment of the phoenix, where jean, uses it fully and by fully i mean dark phoenix.

Actually, Dark Phoenix was not the full power of the Phoniex Force. The part of the Phoenix Force that Necrom was using was taken long before Jean was born. IIRC, it was ripped from the Phoenix Force thousands of years ago.

 

[javon]

The Phoenic force is juust confusing. Why do people say "Jean is phoenix" when we got Rachel as phoenix? And what the hellis she stilling power for? Don't she got her own?

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

Talking about variations... we have StormPhoenix, StormOdin, StormThor, StormMan...

LOL! OMG, do you seriously find these anything other than just silly, bordering on the ridiculous? If so, then you are the one who is delusional IMO. BTW, that's a rhetorical question, so please don't bother responding. It would be nice if you contained your adoration of Storm to HER thread... FOR ONCE! Omitting your blatantly obvious and downright disturbing hatred of Jean from HER threads would be a pleasant surprise as well. Your once mildly amusing jealously, now commonly known as "Phoenix Envy", has become a raging and supremely annoying OBSESSION! Some might even call it trolling! My god man(woman?/boy?/girl?), GET A GRIP!! PICK UP THE NEEDLE, THE RECORD'S REPEATING!! You can stop hammering home your "Operation Ororo" agenda anyday now! WE GET THE PICTURE!!! YOU HATE JEAN AND LOVE STORM!!! And apparently, not to mention sadly, you can't cope with the fact that other people feel differently. How... pathetic.

Just out of curiousity, how old ARE you actually anyway?! 'Cause when I read your above quote to my two nephews and niece(ages 9, 12, and 16 respectfully), they snickered and made fun of it. A good indication that it was... BEYOND LAME! 'Cause it was!