The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[Sian]

Because he was never a typical bad guy. He was Han and Leia's son.

 

[Schlosser85]

Him being conflicted and torn in both directions was a core aspect of his character across all three movies.

 

[RaimiWebSpidey]

He’s the last Skywalker in the SKYWALKER saga. It would have been a terrible ending to that families bloodline and story for the last of them to end up going out evil. Having Kylo be the big bad would have been an unforgivable sin. You can’t end the saga with the families name in darkness.

 

[antsman41]

Ya, but anyone can be a “Skywalker” by merely calling themselves one.

 

[Spider-Fan]

He’s the last Skywalker in the SKYWALKER saga. It would have been a terrible ending to that families bloodline and story for the last of them to end up going out evil. Having Kylo be the big bad would have been an unforgivable sin. You can’t end the saga with the families name in darkness.

It's not about a family name or any of that. I think fans are too protective over things like that which don't ultimately matter. Ben turning good just makes him inferior Darth Vader. Why invite a comparison you won't win? Also, Ben is not even the only Skywalker with a negative legacy. I doubt people have fond memories of Anakin. Ben being evil doesn't diminish Luke's legacy one bit. But this protective mentality fans have limits creativity. If you can't let people tell creative stories, then why tell the story at all? That is what killed the sequels. Everyone is just inferior versions of better characters from a more compelling story. Outside of some decisions in TLJ, they didn't do anything new or original. Having Ben turn is a good example of lack of risk taking.

 

[godisawesome]

Lol the Trevorrow script is even worse than TROS, and that’s saying a lot. Rey and Kylo Ren her terrible arcs in that script. This all comes down to JJ Abrams inability to come up with imaginative story telling, and being stuck in the OT. The CT script was bad, but was atleast original. Making Kylo the big bad with not real redemption though is unforgivable, considering he’s the last Skywalker of this trilogy. Can’t close the saga out with the last Skywalker evil, that’s such a Debbie downer.

I actually like him not being redeemed much more. Why must the bad guy always be redeemed? It's so cliche and uninteresting.

Because he was never a typical bad guy. He was Han and Leia's son.

Him being conflicted and torn in both directions was a core aspect of his character across all three movies.

Kylo was also at his core a mass murdering fanatic devoted to his own advancement in the dark side for two movies in a row; there’s a reason why TROS had to invoke brainwashing and a magical reprogramming Force move from Leia to free him - the other two movies took great pains to argue the audience would be wrong to see redemption as his natural fate. The difference between TFA and TLJ on that respect was that TFA made a more definitive statement in that regard, while TLJ embraced the idea that Kylo could still seem sympathetic even as a mass murderer with no real excuse for his actions and no redeeming qualities.

And it’s really not a good thing that his heritage and parentage became the only real reason he was redeemed - that’s not about him as a character, but it is about treating the Skywalkers as special and giving them a double standard. I mean, that’s supposed to be the reason why Rey Random was a thing for TLJ - Johnson was arguing that Star Wars would always be limited if it kept devoting itself to the Skywalkers... though the fact that Rey ceded her spot in the climax to Luke and Kylo shows that even Johnson was succumbing to that bias he was complaining about.

Weirdly, while I think Kylo getting redeemed was going to happen regardless of anything else once Abrams was hired back with a mandate for creating a “satisfying” ending, I think Ben’s chances of surviving would have gone up if LFL had just chosen to bite the bullet regarding Rey and make her a full fledged Skywalker by rejecting TLJ’s answer entirely, instead of trying to compromise between Rey Random and Rey “Skywalker” via Rey Palpatine.

Because I think Abrams was keenly aware that it was Ben’s heritage saving his soul, not his story arc, and the importance of that heritage posed a threat to Rey remains the clear main character - I mean, Finn and Poe both drown Kylo in terms of screentime, but Disney and LFL had no problem saying Kylo/Ben was the real male lead in spite of that, so how in the world would Rey Random remain on top of Ben Solo left the film as a redeemed Skywalker? Could even Rey Palpatine lay claim to the Skywalker name in any believable fashion of Ben was still out there?

I think Abrams judged the answer was “no,” so he made sure Ben died after his first real appearance. If Rey didn’t have the “Non-Skywalker” handicap, then I can easily see Abrams *still* ignoring the damnation direction of Kylo’s two film arc... but also seeing a “two-point swing” to the light side as the best option. Heck, if TROS had early established Rey was a Skywalker outright, than Kylo probably could have remained the main villain *and* get redeemed - Palpatine was reportedly seen as a necessary addition to the actual TROS film because they were worried about Ben’s redemption as the main villain failing... likely because neither Trevorrow nor Abrams could justify to themselves letting Ben Solo live as the only Skywalker kid.

 

[antsman41]

We should change the thread title to “writing” instead.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Podcast interview with the editors of SW:TFA and SW:TROS and frequent J. J. Abrams collaborators (Part 2 starting at 31:12) (archive):

Maryann Brandon, co-editor of Star Wars: The Force Awakens and Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: "I would say a lot of things about J. J. [Abrams] and all of them great but he is...and one of the great things about him is...he thinks big, so everything's always big and he...if you're going to say to him [like Disney CEO Bob Iger did], 'This is a four billion [dollar] pressure,' he's gonna bring his eight billion dollar game. So when that all sort of happened I knew [Star Wars Episode VII] was gonna be a big, big film and it was gonna be full of ideas and creative ideas that were gonna be really fun to sink my teeth into."

Mary Jo Markey, co-editor of Star Wars: The Force Awakens: "We read that [Michael Arndt version of Star Wars Episode VII]. We read a long outline."

Maryann Brandon: "We read the outline [of the Michael Arndt version of Star Wars Episode VII]. No [the three movies weren't outlined at that point], just that one."

Mary Jo Markey: "I don't remember [Michael Arndt's version of Star Wars Episode VII] bearing a lot of resemblence [to the final version] to be honest." "Yeah [it was quite different]."

Maryann Brandon: "I think [Michael Arndt's version of Star Wars Episode VII] was quite different and I think [Arndt and Abrams/Kasdan] just saw it completely differently and also I don't know that their work styles were very different. I can't really speak to it 'cause I wasn't around those days. We weren't there. [We were both] doing something else [at the time]."

Mary Jo Markey: "It was something about like...one of them, I don't know even remember - it was work style - it's like one of them needed to flesh out everything before moving story and the other one did it."

Mary Ann Brandon: "I think J. J. [Abrams] is definitely...he does seem to enjoy a lot of input and ideas and you can splash'em up there on a wall and then he takes them and kind of...we all move them around and I think Michael [Arndt]'s a much more plodding, 'This leads to this and this, to this, this,' and if you take the 'A' out, 'D' is gonna fall apart. And so that is a real style clash. And when J. J. started working with Lawrence Kasdan, I think Larry just fed him ideas, let J. J. have ideas or listen to J. J.'s ideas and then he kind of fed them and enhanced them and guided them more. So I think that was a more...he was also really excited to work with Larry Kasdan. I think that relationship was solid." "That's an interesting question [about what their ideas were for where the story would go in VIII and IX and if they were deviated from]. They were so concentrating on getting one up and rebooting the series. When I first started on the film, I didn't realize that it was gonna go then to another director. I didn't even think about it. In hindsight, I wish J. J. had done them all and I wish they spread them out like into a nine year period or a ten year period and given it [more time] sort of like Lord of the Rings."

Mary Jo Markey: "I do remember them...hearing them talking about certain elements that they thought should be...things that would follow through the three [new Star Wars movies], but..." "Oh yeah [they tried to talk me into coming back to do Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker]. I just decided not to do the film for...I just wanted to do something else to be honest. I sort of told my agent, 'No more'. No more spaceships, no more monsters."

Maryann Brandon: "[Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker] was a big film. It had to encompass a lot. It had to...wherever VIII led, IX had to answer and [it had to wrap it all up including the three trilogies]. So it was a big...it was a lot. And the film's chock-full. I love the film...I think it's just got so much in it and so much going for it...inevitably it wasn't going to please everyone." "Yes, it evolved in post-production, but there were a lot of basic ideas that were there to begin with and where we were going to take the main character and J. J. and Chris Terrio, the writer, very much wanted Rey and Finn and Poe to be together in this one and have it be an adventure the way Luke and Leia and Han did and they're good together, they're emotionally connected...so there was figuring and rejiggering but there was a basic...it goes along with the script."

And then they talk about Palpatine being back, Tatooine, the final cut being Abrams's director's cut, and so on.

Podcast interview with the editors of SW:TFA and SW:TROS (Part 3):

Maryann Brandon: "I liked parts of The Last Jedi, yeah." (laughs at Markey's silence instead of reply to the same question) "The Last Jedi – I will say this: It was just a different take on the Star Wars Saga. To Rian [Johnson]’s credit…he stuck to what he wanted to do and he wanted to deconstruct the film and open it up to a different…to go a different direction and that is the film he made and I know it’s controversial but isn’t that kind of good in a way? (laughs)” “[Star Wars: The Last Jedi did] bring new elements [like you just said]…and you kind of…[it was exciting like you just claimed] yeah. So…that’s why I say I feel very much like in hindsight that the trilogy, the last part of the trilogy, needed one vision.” “Right [Rian Johnson kind of did the undoing first in Star Wars: The Last Jedi before Abrams in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker like you just said], it’s like so it went like that.” “Well the third film went with the first film!” “I agree [that Star Wars: The Last Jedi] was really polarizing and I think it was hard to know for the writer and for J. J. [Abrams] what to do with [the story going forward]. Yeah [how do you get the fans back?] or how do you…it’s like if somebody [else] wrote the middle of your novel. You’re like, ‘Okay, now I got to…how do I get the end of the novel?’”

Mary Jo Markey: "[Did I like The Last Jedi?] ... (silence) (crosstalk and laughter between host and Brandon) Well we're not lying." “I couldn’t agree more [with Maryann Brandon’s sentiment]. It’s very strange to have the second film so consciously undo the storytelling of the first film. I’m sorry, that’s what it felt like.” “I don’t even really feel that [the accusations are] true about the third film [undoing Star Wars: The Last Jedi], I just…I don’t know, I feel it took where the second film ended and just tried to tell a story. I didn’t feel like it was consciously…I’m trying to…I don’t know, it just didn’t feel that way to me.”

 

[antsman41]

**** that lady.

 

[Sian]

Just makes you realise what dweebs are running LF these days.

Nowhere in TLJ did Rian 'retcon' TFA. Making Rey a 'nobody' destroyed nothing - JJ never mentioned who her parents were supposed to be. Luke being responsible for Ben's fall - Han himself said Luke felt responsible. Making Luke into a haunted man - judging by the way he looked at Rey in TFA that's exactly what he was.
Abrams did all the retconning, not Johnson. The way they tore down everything Johnson did is one of the most childish and petulant things I've seen so called professionals do. And the result was a disaster area.

 

[TheVileOne]

Bringing back Palpatine was a bad desperation act. Pretty obvious. They didn't know what else to do.

 

[BatLobster]

I'll go to my grave still believing that Palpatine absolutely always should've been the unifying villain of the whole saga, but the problem was that that they botched the reveal/came to that realization a bit late in the game.

Bottom line, the story was supposed to end with the end of Palpatine/The Sith. That is what Lucas said. You don't have to like it, but that's the story as it is. A prophecy is introduced in the first episode, and finally fulfilled in the sixth. Pretty clear. The sequel trilogy always had a major problem of feeling disconnected from the main narrative of I-VI, and they presented a villain who was a weak knock-off of the Emperor, who always felt like a placeholder villain. The story they were telling had an Emperor-sized hole in it, and whether or not they realized it, his absence was made all the more apparent by the decision to just have a new Empire-lite in action at the start of the new trilogy. They didn't know what else to do because there was nothing else to do that truly made any sense and connected the films. Kylo was never going to be the final threat. You needed something more mystical and epic for the final chapter, and the pieces just fit on a number of levels. They botched the execution in a bunch of ways, but the choice to involve the Emperor in some capacity was sound.

 

[henzINNIT]

Agreed on that. I wasn't too keen on Palps' return upon first hearing it, but considering the lack of deeper mythology in 7 & 8 and Disney's desire to play 9 as the conclusion to the series, his presence made a lot of sense. They just botched it badly.

They've really screwed the pooch now, because when they inevitably turn back to numbered sequels there will be even more trouble moving forward with a new villain.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'll go to my grave still believing that Palpatine absolutely always should've been the unifying villain of the whole saga, but the problem was that that they botched the reveal/came to that realization a bit late in the game.

Bottom line, the story was supposed to end with the end of Palpatine/The Sith. That is what Lucas said. You don't have to like it, but that's the story as it is. A prophecy is introduced in the first episode, and finally fulfilled in the sixth. Pretty clear. The sequel trilogy always had a major problem of feeling disconnected from the main narrative of I-VI, and they presented a villain who was a weak knock-off of the Emperor, who always felt like a placeholder villain. The story they were telling had an Emperor-sized hole in it, and whether or not they realized it, his absence was made all the more apparent by the decision to just have a new Empire-lite in action at the start of the new trilogy. They didn't know what else to do because there was nothing else to do that truly made any sense and connected the films. Kylo was never going to be the final threat. You needed something more mystical and epic for the final chapter, and the pieces just fit on a number of levels. They botched the execution in a bunch of ways, but the choice to involve the Emperor in some capacity was sound.

I don't believe it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't think Palpatine was needed at all. But that said, it COULD have worked. But JJ and co did not make it work. They made it embarassing.

 

[MaceB]

I don't think Palpatine was needed at all. But that said, it COULD have worked. But JJ and co did not make it work. They made it embarassing.

TROS is pretty much awful, but I just don't blame Abrams for it. This was a management problem. Rian Johnson handed Disney an excruciatingly brave film... and unfortunately, the risk didn't pay off. Audiences couldn't see where it was going, and so they questioned and ridiculed it.

That's when Disney over-reacted, changed course... and went back to the formula. The problem is that Rian Johnson didn't give them lot of openings for that. Instead.... it really feels like he tried to force their hand not to.

But they said the heck with it... we're going to jam pack it all in there. This was not Abram's movie. This was Disney's movie, IMO.

 

[Spider-Fan]

TROS is pretty much awful, but I just don't blame Abrams for it. This was a management problem. Rian Johnson handed Disney an excruciatingly brave film... and unfortunately, the risk didn't pay off. Audiences couldn't see where it was going, and so they questioned and ridiculed it.

That's when Disney over-reacted, changed course... and went back to the formula. The problem is that Rian Johnson didn't give them lot of openings for that. Instead.... it really feels like he tried to force their hand not to.

But they said the heck with it... we're going to jam pack it all in there. This was not Abram's movie. This was Disney's movie, IMO.

Again, I think Abrams is very much to blame. TFA is a movie I had similar problems with, only that movie turned out better overall. But many of the same writing and pacing issues I saw in TFA, only in TROS, it was magnified. So yeah, the studio takes some blame, but JJ has a lot of it. He did also write this garbage.

 

[henzINNIT]

Who's the more foolish? The fool or the fool who hires him?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Who's the more foolish? The fool or the fool who hires him?

It can be both, lol

 

[MaceB]

Again, I think Abrams is very much to blame. TFA is a movie I had similar problems with, only that movie turned out better overall. But many of the same writing and pacing issues I saw in TFA, only in TROS, it was magnified. So yeah, the studio takes some blame, but JJ has a lot of it. He did also write this garbage.

Pretty much under their direction. Do you honestly think that TROS is even close to what JJ would write if he were in a vacuum? Seems clear to me that he had a lot of checkboxes to mark off.

TFA was basically a good movie. Had some problems, sure... but it was a promising start. TROS isn't really a film in my mind... it's like jigsaw puzzle on screen. And personally... I disagree with you. I think the bulk of the blame goes on the Executive Producers who demanded that the movies veer back into the formula.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Pretty much under their direction. Do you honestly think that TROS is even close to what JJ would write if he were in a vacuum? Seems clear to me that he had a lot of checkboxes to mark off.

TFA was basically a good movie. Had some problems, sure... but it was a promising start. TROS isn't really a film in my mind... it's like jigsaw puzzle on screen. And personally... I disagree with you. I think the bulk of the blame goes on the Executive Producers who demanded that the movies veer back into the formula.

Given JJ'd track record: yes I do. Did we see what happened to Star Trek? Same thing happened. Star Trek came out, people liked it. Into Darkness came out, and it sucked and people largely rejected it. I think Star Wars is very similar here. TFA had a honeymoon period, like Trek 08 did, and TROS turned out like Into Darkness. It's remarkable how similar it all is.

 

[MaceB]

Whatever. JJ has his problems, but I respect his craft enough to recognize that TROS is a jumbled mess with too many cooks in the kitchen.

I do agree that JJ likes to set up plot lines more than he likes to finish them. That's for sure. And his writing isn't great. But nothing he has ever done has been nearly as poor (sorry folks... just my opinion) as TROS. It wasn't even a good effort in my opinion, and I trust that JJ could have done better if he had autonomy.

I guess we'll never know.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Whatever. JJ has his problems, but I respect his craft to recognize that TROS is a jumbled mess with too many cooks in the kitchen.

I do agree that JJ likes to set up plot lines more than he likes to finish them. That's for sure. And his writing isn't great. But nothing he has ever done has been nearly as poor (sorry folks... just my opinion) as TROS. It wasn't even a good effort in my opinion, and I trust that JJ could have done better if he had autonomy.

I guess we'll never know.

Agree to disagree. I have said many times JJ is a tremendously overrated director. I am not a fan. I see him as an okay director, who for some reason people think is great. But, no one has to agree with me.

 

[MaceB]

Agree to disagree. I have said many times JJ is a tremendously overrated director. I am not a fan. I see him as an okay director, who for some reason people think is great. But, no one has to agree with me.

Hehe, I don't mind saying he's overrated. I'll give you that.

 

[MaceB]

I'll go to my grave still believing that Palpatine absolutely always should've been the unifying villain of the whole saga, but the problem was that that they botched the reveal/came to that realization a bit late in the game.

Bottom line, the story was supposed to end with the end of Palpatine/The Sith. That is what Lucas said. You don't have to like it, but that's the story as it is. A prophecy is introduced in the first episode, and finally fulfilled in the sixth. Pretty clear. The sequel trilogy always had a major problem of feeling disconnected from the main narrative of I-VI, and they presented a villain who was a weak knock-off of the Emperor, who always felt like a placeholder villain. The story they were telling had an Emperor-sized hole in it, and whether or not they realized it, his absence was made all the more apparent by the decision to just have a new Empire-lite in action at the start of the new trilogy. They didn't know what else to do because there was nothing else to do that truly made any sense and connected the films. Kylo was never going to be the final threat. You needed something more mystical and epic for the final chapter, and the pieces just fit on a number of levels. They botched the execution in a bunch of ways, but the choice to involve the Emperor in some capacity was sound.

For me, this is the most frustrating thing about TROS. There were plot lines left to solve! They could have gone back to the Chosen One prophecy. They could have explained force ghosts. They could have returned to the theme of saving our loved ones from death. That's what an ending is supposed to do!... return to the beginning. But they didn't even try to go full circle. It was as if... whoever wrote the outline of this movie.... didn't understand Star Wars at all. Or more to the point, they didn't understand the Star Wars story. TROS seems pretty preoccupied with harking back visually, but all of the philosophy of the previous films was entirely discarded.

And in that supremely ignorant move, they actually hurt all the movies that came before. Was Anakin the chosen one? Did Luke have a positive impact at all? Are the Skywalker even relevant to this story now? In their selfishness, they actually made the original movies irrelevant. They Game of Thrones'd it.