The Dark Knight Let's debate various aspects of TDK

[SheldonLevene]

There all getting themselves overhyped is one of the reasons. I can't wait myself to see Ledger's performance but it's ridiculous how people are saying Jack's Joker wasn't sinister or evil.

I think some of the fanboys have gotten themselves so worked up about the new Joker that they think it's going to look/appear Rated R compared to Jack's.

I understand that according to all the interviews Ledger's Joker won't be as silly as Jacks but that doesn't mean Nicholson's performance was kiddy fair.

Very good point. I myself am really excited about Ledger's Joker, and will probably like it more that Nicholson's but the idea that Jack did it wrong or was bad or didn't take it seriously enough is unfair. Even in the interviews for the SE disc of 89 you can tell how excited Jack was about the role and how reverant he was in approaching the character.

 

[Kaizer]

Very good point. I myself am really excited about Ledger's Joker, and will probably like it more that Nicholson's but the idea that Jack did it wrong or was bad or didn't take it seriously enough is unfair. Even in the interviews for the SE disc of 89 you can tell how excited Jack was about the role and how reverant he was in approaching the character.

I had to laugh reading that line, taking the Joker serious?

I mean...Why so serious? Good points, sir

 

[StylishHokie21]

There all getting themselves overhyped is one of the reasons. I can't wait myself to see Ledger's performance but it's ridiculous how people are saying Jack's Joker wasn't sinister or evil.

I think some of the fanboys have gotten themselves so worked up about the new Joker that they think it's going to look/appear Rated R compared to Jack's.

I understand that according to all the interviews Ledger's Joker won't be as silly as Jacks but that doesn't mean Nicholson's performance was kiddy fair.

Great post. It seems like since Heath took on the role,some people have been bashing Nicholson's Joker just for the hell of it.

 

[Shoemeister]

Great post. It seems like since Heath took on the role,some people have been bashing Nicholson's Joker just for the hell of it.

I can agree with that.

I truly do feel that Ledger's Joker is going to be THE definitive interpretation. But to knock Jack's performance is stupid. It's still a classic, and hell, I still quote his lines from that movie all the time.

 

[gwynplaine]

Jack Nicholson is my favorite actor in the world and I thought he was a lot of fun in B89. OK, now that that's out of way, let's cut to the chase. I think he was too old and too fat for the Joker role in B89. Also that make-up seriously handiccaped him because of how it limited the expression on his otherwise fantastically expressive face. It's like getting the greatest runner in the world and tying his leg behind his back before the race.
Most people saw the movie when they were kids and that's also another reason why that performance is so revered IMO. But I don't mean to offend anyone and certainly not Jack who like I said before is the man and was really cool (as usual) in B89.
To me his best Joker will always be Jack Torrance and not Jack Napier. He was 10 years younger, a lot thinner and his level of energy still unmatched to that day. Michael Caine said it better than anyone, it's a role that needs the energy of a younger actor.

 

[Figs]

Great post. It seems like since Heath took on the role,some people have been bashing Nicholson's Joker just for the hell of it.

That's pretty much how it's been since they revealed the new Joker.

The bad thing about that is, the fans out there who truly never liked Nicholson's Joker and actually can have a good and detailed debate about it tend to get thrown in and accused with the "bandwagon nicholson haters".

I myself still love Nicholson's Joker, I was about 8 years old in 1989. I watched it again with my gf a few months back.

While it's sad to say the film is definetly starting to look and feel dated(that's coming from a big Tim Burton fan) his performance holds up...as well as Keatons.

I'm super excited to see the return of the clown prince of crime and all but now in this movie, we for the first time (in a live action film at least) get to see a hopefully respectable telling of the fall of Harvey Dent as well.

 

[gwynplaine]

That's pretty much how it's been since they revealed the new Joker.

The bad thing about that is, the fans out there who truly never liked Nicholson's Joker and actually can have a good and detailed debate about it tend to get thrown in and accused with the "bandwagon nicholson haters".

I myself still love Nicholson's Joker, I was about 8 years old in 1989. I watched it again with my gf a few months back.

While it's sad to say the film is definetly starting to look and feel dated(that's coming from a big Tim Burton fan) his performance holds up...as well as Keatons.

I'm super excited to see the return of the clown prince of crime and all but now in this movie, we for the first time (in a live action film at least) get to see a hopefully respectable telling of the fall of Harvey Dent as well.

Good post.

 

[StorminNorman]

I still state that Nicholson's Joker is one of my favorite cinematic characters of all time. I can also state that I could absolutely love The Dark Knight, have it meet all my wishes, love Ledger's Joker and still think Nicholson is the better Clown Prince.

He was a near flawless Joker.

 

[SheldonLevene]

I still state that Nicholson's Joker is one of my favorite cinematic characters of all time. I can also state that I could absolutely love The Dark Knight, have it meet all my wishes, love Ledger's Joker and still think Nicholson is the better Clown Prince.

He was a near flawless Joker.

Hmm. I agree for the most part. But it was a bit too much Jack for me. Like someone said before earlier in his career he would have been even more perfect.

 

[Shoemeister]

To me his best Joker will always be Jack Torrance and not Jack Napier. He was 10 years younger, a lot thinner and his level of energy still unmatched to that day.

A valid statement.

 

[Victarion]

I'd like to debate the effects that Dent's scarring would have on Batman. Presumabley we will have Two-Face by the third act. Obviously, Bats enjoys roughing up the thugs and mob bosses he tangles with night after night. Now we're hearing rumors of Rachel Dawes being killed at the hands of the Joker. First his ally and possibly friend becomes what he wanted to eliminate, then a childhood friend is supposedly murdered in cold blood. Just how far do you suppose these events would push Batman?

I could very well see him either embracing the "monster" (as Alfred lovingly calls Bruce's persona) or going the same direction as Two-Face, without realizing it.

 

[regwec]

Jack's Joker was great, but I think it was overshadowed by his Jack Napier persona. For that reason, I find the movie more engaging up to the point where The Joker murders Grissom (before which point he seems to be acting as Napier under the makeup).

 

[SheldonLevene]

I'd like to debate the effects that Dent's scarring would have on Batman. Presumabley we will have Two-Face by the third act. Obviously, Bats enjoys roughing up the thugs and mob bosses he tangles with night after night. Now we're hearing rumors of Rachel Dawes being killed at the hands of the Joker. First his ally and possibly friend becomes what he wanted to eliminate, then a childhood friend is supposedly murdered in cold blood. Just how far do you suppose these events would push Batman?

I could very well see him either embracing the "monster" (as Alfred lovingly calls Bruce's persona) or going the same direction as Two-Face, without realizing it.

Yes. Nice points. I would kinda enjoy seeing Batman just go ape **** on Joker in the event that Rachel is killed. Which I imagine we will see.

As far as Dent. I would like to see Batman be reluctant to take him down. Sort of how he was in TLH. Sometimes it's interesting to see people that are enemies, but at least part of each of them still cares about the other person.

I also want more of Gordon, and for Batman and his relationship to develop. I think a scene in Gordon's office a la B:TAS would be awesome. Then Batman just vanishes.

 

[Figs]

As for the talk in those last few posts regarding the possible murder of Rachel...don't get your hopes up.

I think some fans are expecting this film to be a little too dark and violent/twisted.

I expect it to be dark but I had to tone myself down from getting excited hoping it shows a lot of death from the Joker. I don't want my hype to ruin any part of the film, I really think that if Joker does kill a whole lot of people since he's been referred to in many interviews as a "mass murdering clown" a lot of it will be mentioned not shown.

 

[Kaizer]

Maggie has already said she would like to reprise her role, so I guess we won't be seeing Rachel's death any time soon

 

[SheldonLevene]

As for the talk in those last few posts regarding the possible murder of Rachel...don't get your hopes up.

I think some fans are expecting this film to be a little too dark and violent/twisted.

I expect it to be dark but I had to tone myself down from getting excited hoping it shows a lot of death from the Joker. I don't want my hype to ruin any part of the film, I really think that if Joker does kill a whole lot of people since he's been referred to in many interviews as a "mass murdering clown" a lot of it will be mentioned not shown.

I was simply reffering to the guys post above me. I honestly am pretty sure Rachel will lives especially since Maggie has said she'd be up for a second film.

 

[SheldonLevene]

Maggie has already said she would like to reprise her role, so I guess we won't be seeing Rachel's death any time soon

Beat me to it.

 

[Kaizer]

great minds think alike!

 

[BatSpider]

Maggie has already said she would like to reprise her role, so I guess we won't be seeing Rachel's death any time soon

I want her to die, not for pleasure, just for the dramatic effect

 

[Kaizer]

I fully agree on that though

 

[StylishHokie21]

That's pretty much how it's been since they revealed the new Joker.

The bad thing about that is, the fans out there who truly never liked Nicholson's Joker and actually can have a good and detailed debate about it tend to get thrown in and accused with the "bandwagon nicholson haters".

I myself still love Nicholson's Joker, I was about 8 years old in 1989. I watched it again with my gf a few months back.

While it's sad to say the film is definetly starting to look and feel dated(that's coming from a big Tim Burton fan) his performance holds up...as well as Keatons.

I'm super excited to see the return of the clown prince of crime and all but now in this movie, we for the first time (in a live action film at least) get to see a hopefully respectable telling of the fall of Harvey Dent as well.

Great post once again. Since they butchered Two-Face in Forever, I'm anxious to see how Eckhart portrays him.

 

[Solidus]

That's pretty much how it's been since they revealed the new Joker.

The bad thing about that is, the fans out there who truly never liked Nicholson's Joker and actually can have a good and detailed debate about it tend to get thrown in and accused with the "bandwagon nicholson haters".

I myself still love Nicholson's Joker, I was about 8 years old in 1989. I watched it again with my gf a few months back.

While it's sad to say the film is definetly starting to look and feel dated(that's coming from a big Tim Burton fan) his performance holds up...as well as Keatons.

I'm super excited to see the return of the clown prince of crime and all but now in this movie, we for the first time (in a live action film at least) get to see a hopefully respectable telling of the fall of Harvey Dent as well.

Now I'm a fan of Jack's Joker. But in terms of over all feel, Heath's Joker is in my eyes, and many that see it darker then Jack's Joker. Yea in context if you explain what Jack's Joker does verbally and explain a scene, it sounds dark, and it is. But honestly even when I was 7 years old and saw the film, I was never scared of the Joker.

The Jack Napier thing as regwec did say took away from some of the "creepiness" of the Joker. Though I still love his preformance, and it was well done, but I saw it well done for the time, and for the time when Comic Book movies were not taken that seriously by anyone. B89 is still a classic, and Jack rocked the house. But reading that article on CNN, I do think Ang Lee put it best, it seems even a lot of the famous Batman writers creaters like Dini and so forth and even Mark, comment on from the trailer alone how "dark" feeling Heath's Joker is.

I love Jack's Joker, but I still always just see Jack in white makeup. With Heath, it is like he transformed himself to the Joker himself. Though Joker in B89 did horrible acts, and was very violent, it never...felt scary, or threatening even when I was a kid. But even now as an adult, looking at the Joker in the trailer alone, it gives me the chills, he is darker in certain ways, not just context, but the way he moves, talks, and looks, not even just physically, but that aurora that Heath gives off, and the look in his eyes.

Both Jokers will always be great, but I think there is nothing wrong with getting excited for Heath's Joker, because even from a Trailer, fans, general audience and many professionals alike are praising from what they have seen. I'm stoked to see this performance.

 

[Figs]

Now I'm a fan of Jack's Joker. But in terms of over all feel, Heath's Joker is in my eyes, and many that see it darker then Jack's Joker. Yea in context if you explain what Jack's Joker does verbally and explain a scene, it sounds dark, and it is. But honestly even when I was 7 years old and saw the film, I was never scared of the Joker.

The Jack Napier thing as regwec did say took away from some of the "creepiness" of the Joker. Though I still love his preformance, and it was well done, but I saw it well done for the time, and for the time when Comic Book movies were not taken that seriously by anyone. B89 is still a classic, and Jack rocked the house. But reading that article on CNN, I do think Ang Lee put it best, it seems even a lot of the famous Batman writers creaters like Dini and so forth and even Mark, comment on from the trailer alone how "dark" feeling Heath's Joker is.

I love Jack's Joker, but I still always just see Jack in white makeup. With Heath, it is like he transformed himself to the Joker himself. Though Joker in B89 did horrible acts, and was very violent, it never...felt scary, or threatening even when I was a kid. But even now as an adult, looking at the Joker in the trailer alone, it gives me the chills, he is darker in certain ways, not just context, but the way he moves, talks, and looks, not even just physically, but that aurora that Heath gives off, and the look in his eyes.

I agree, in Batman '89 it was still always Nicholson as the Joker. In this it does look like Heath 'becomes' the Joker. When that trailer hit not to mention some of those later Joker pics...I couldn't tell it was Heath under there.


Both Jokers will always be great, but I think there is nothing wrong with getting excited for Heath's Joker, because even from a Trailer, fans, general audience and many professionals alike are praising from what they have seen. I'm stoked to see this performance.

I don't think there's anything wrong with getting excited for Heath's Joker either. I was just talking about the people that are going overboard and jumping on the "I think Nicholson's Joker sucks balls" bandwagon.

I myself am very excited and for the most part think I will like Heath's Joker more than Nicholson's in the long run.

 

[Victarion]

Yes. Nice points. I would kinda enjoy seeing Batman just go ape **** on Joker in the event that Rachel is killed. Which I imagine we will see.

As far as Dent. I would like to see Batman be reluctant to take him down. Sort of how he was in TLH. Sometimes it's interesting to see people that are enemies, but at least part of each of them still cares about the other person.

I also want more of Gordon, and for Batman and his relationship to develop. I think a scene in Gordon's office a la B:TAS would be awesome. Then Batman just vanishes.

Actually, I was referring to simple hoodlums. Dent's downfall had that much of an impact on Batman. He's walking the same line as Two-Face (lethal vigilante) without realizing it.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Just figured I'd weigh in on the Jack vs. Heath thing. To me it's not even a question of which one is better. I mean it's pointless to argue it. Heath isn't playing Joker the same way that Jack did. It's two entirely different performances, and the character is written differently from what I can tell.

As I said before filming even began, you can't out-Jack Jack, so there's no reason for them to try and put that Joker onscreen. But there've been so many different versions of Joker in the comics over the years that there's no reason to be afraid of doing something different with him here. Heath's Joker looks less polished than Jack's, less like a gentleman or a former mobster. Jack's Joker was a dapper fellow, obsessed with his appearance, and the ruination of his looks was one of the things that made him scar beautiful girls and so on.

Heath's Joker seems different, and to me that's a good thing - not because there was anything wrong with Jack's Joker but because it's necessary for this film to present the character in a different way.

I too think it's odd that people say Jack's Joker wasn't evil enough or whatever, he did terrible, terrible things. I sometimes think that what they're responding to is the fact that the audience laughed with Jack's Joker, no matter what horrid thing he was doing. And the trailer for TDK seems to suggest that we may not be laughing with Heath's Joker so much. Which should be interesting.