List of Things Batman Returns got Right/Wrong

[Superwoman Prime]

They don't, Parents-Gun-Bat is grasping at straws.

 

[El Payaso]

The truth is: Burton didn't really care about the source material, he tried to change everything to fit HIS vision.

For that matter Schumacher, Nolan, Raimi, Donner, Lester are doing the same, changing things to fit their visions. It’s what artists do.

About the not caring for hte sourc material, you’re plain wrong. And offered no support for that random statement.

For the record. Burton's Batman has nothing to do with Miller'S DKR Batman.

For the record: you’re wrong.

Burton himself claimed that he got influence from B:TDKR many times.

But Miller's Batman is 80s!

Burton’s Batman release date : 1989.

Yeah, like the Penguin and Catwoman, back then in the "Gothic Age of comics".

How is Burton taking the good elements from those characters being denied by some invented comic age name?

Logics is not making you any favour.

And now? And why not? Afterall he used DEEP quotes like "You have a kind of dark side, don't yaa, Selina?" WOW! Sounds absolutely not forced! Romancing the stones!

^^ Is this how a desperate guy sounds when he finds out he can’t poke any hole into a solid argument?

You said Batman had girlfriends in the original comcis. I said he had girfriends in the movie. You can’t deny that. You’d be doing a lot better by admitting your defeat than by quoting excellent lines from Burton’s movies as a way of blind bashing.

Once again, I left you speechless.

It was at least hinted that she became some supernatural girl. She started to jump around and do martial arts afterwards.

Once again, who’s to say she didn’t learn martial arts beforehand?

Are you telling me that Batman’s skills are super-powers?

Every time I see Selina Kyle moving like a real cat I feel a little bit embarrassed.

A longer exposure to the opposite sex should fix that up.

Selina Kyle is supposed to be a human cat

^^ Oh yes. The bit where you totally contradict your own statement.

“Selina is a woman that shouldn’t move as a real cat. The reason: she is a human cat.”

They aren't too bright, i think that's a fact.

You thinking it suggests that it could easily be totally otherwise.

yeah, like Superman, Hawkman, Micky Mouse.

*whispering*

pssst, you forgot to make a point. Even a wrong one.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

For that matter Schumacher, Nolan, Raimi, Donner, Lester are doing the same, changing things to fit their visions. It’s what artists do.

Most of them failed. In my eyes.

About the not caring for hte sourc material, you’re plain wrong. And offered no support for that random statement.

On a superficial level they cared for the source material, yes.

For the record: you’re wrong.

Burton himself claimed that he got influence from B:TDKR many times.

He can claim what he wants. Keaton's Batman is nothing like Miller's Rambo Batman who drives around in a BIG TANK!

Burton’s Batman release date : 1989.

WOW! I meant 80s in the way that his Batman is modelled after the typical 80s action movies: loud and intense. Burton's Batman is silent. He is hidden. Miller's Batman is in-your-face.

How is Burton taking the good elements from those characters being denied by some invented comic age name?

They have never been that way. Not even remotely. It's easy to change characters to fit your "vision". You could take the Crazy Quilt and burton-ize him. It wouldn't be difficult. It's weak. Weak like a Joker wearing make-up.

Logics is not making you any favour.

Yes, yes. Feel superior.

^^ Is this how a desperate guy sounds when he finds out he can’t poke any hole into a solid argument?

I don't know. It's really stupid to discuss with somebody who is as self-righteous as you. Everyone should see that Burton's Batman is a lot different than Miller's and even the Batman from the comics. When you fail to see that I cannot "poke any hole" into your arguments. That's the problem with discussions. I try to be open-minded and you are just defending these points because you like the movie. But stop being so undiscerning and not wanting to see that Burton basically developed his own characters who shares some similarities with the source (like the batears, you know. But then again there is a big rubber suit).

You said Batman had girlfriends in the original comcis. I said he had girfriends in the movie. You can’t deny that. You’d be doing a lot better by admitting your defeat than by quoting excellent lines from Burton’s movies as a way of blind bashing.

THe Batman movie romances are so forced.

Once again, who’s to say she didn’t learn martial arts beforehand?

Are you telling me that Batman’s skills are super-powers?

Selina Kyle=secretary who SUDDENLY became a master martial artist
Bruce Wayne=guy who trained since he was a young boy

A longer exposure to the opposite sex should fix that up.


^^ Oh yes. The bit where you totally contradict your own statement.

You didn't get it. I was trying to say that Catwoman is NOT supposed to be a human cat, she is a woman who puts on a catlike costume. Like Batman. And Batman is not a human bat. So why would she move like a cat and even lick herself? This would only make sense if the "catlicks" really changed her. You know, like radioactive cats mutating her.

pssst, you forgot to make a point. Even a wrong one.

Discussing with you is pointless. You think you are superior to other members here. The point I was going to make: A lot of characters KILLED. Batman is not something special. Should Micky Mouse kill again?

 

[El Payaso]

Most of them failed. In my eyes.

It’s such a relief to know that somebody that hates most superhero movies comes and registers himself into a superhero movies site.

Too much free time can be as much of a misery as too little.

On a superficial level they cared for the source material, yes.

Then Burton fits in widely. His Batman was quite Batman. And based on some of the best bat-comics.

He can claim what he wants. Keaton's Batman is nothing like Miller's Rambo Batman who drives around in a BIG TANK!

Is very much like Miller’s, hiding in the shadows from where he attacks his opponent. Hating public light. The tank is some minor detail that doesn’t change Miller Batman’s immense influence on Burton.

WOW! I meant 80s in the way that his Batman is modelled after the typical 80s action movies: loud and intense. Burton's Batman is silent. He is hidden. Miller's Batman is in-your-face.

On the contrary, Miller’s Batman is always hidden and criminals are suddenly attacked and they never knew what was it.

That said, Burton’s Batman89 had pretty much loud and intense action.

They have never been that way. Not even remotely.

Yes, they were. Read Killing Joke, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Bob Kane era’s comics.

It's easy to change characters to fit your "vision". You could take the Crazy Quilt and burton-ize him. It wouldn't be difficult. It's weak.

You obviously have no notion of what making a movie is like. And your statement is the child of that ignorance.

Weak like a Joker wearing make-up.

Nolan-ouch!

Yes, yes. Feel superior.

Constantly.

I don't know.

You certainly don’t.

It's really stupid to discuss with somebody who is as self-righteous as you.

Is that why you keep doing it?

Everyone should see that Burton's Batman is a lot different than Miller's and even the Batman from the comics. When you fail to see that I cannot "poke any hole" into your arguments. That's the problem with discussions.

You have problems with discussion because you don’t win them or because people insist in disagreeing with you?

I try to be open-minded

you are just defending these points because you like the movie.

And you're attacking the movie because you hate it. Anything new under the sun?

But stop being so undiscerning and not wanting to see that Burton basically developed his own characters who shares some similarities with the source (like the batears, you know. But then again there is a big rubber suit).

“Please stop disagreeing with me”?

THe Batman movie romances are so forced.

Sure, but Batman is not alone in this problem.

Nevertheless Selina Kyle/Catwoman is the exception on the bat-franchise.

Now, you’ll know studios force directors to have a love interest for superhero movies. That’s how Nolan was forced to have Rachel Dawes. If anytime there's a petition to stop that formula, I'll sign it. It's ruining many superhero movies.

That said, that was not by a long shot, my point. Not even your original point.

Selina Kyle=secretary who SUDDENLY became a master martial artist
Bruce Wayne=guy who trained since he was a young boy

You = person not considering that Selina could have had previous training as a martial artist.

You didn't get it. I was trying to say that Catwoman is NOT supposed to be a human cat, she is a woman who puts on a catlike costume. Like Batman. And Batman is not a human bat. So why would she move like a cat and even lick herself?

Catwoman has a long tradition of moving like a cat and making cat-like postures. Call your comic store and suscribe yourself to the Batman comics as soon as possible.

This would only make sense if the "catlicks" really changed her. You know, like radioactive cats mutating her.

Yes my friend. That makes the whole sense that it could make.

Discussing with you is pointless.

I know, I keep beating you.

You think you are superior to other members here.

What I think is ireelevant to what is true.

That said, I’ve learnt tons from reading my fellow members.

The point I was going to make: A lot of characters KILLED. Batman is not something special. Should Micky Mouse kill again?

I have to ask...

Has Mickey Mouse ever killed?

I think the mere need to make that question closes the case.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Parents-Gun-Bat give it a rest you'll never beat a vet like El Payaso

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Parents-Gun-Bat give it a rest you'll never beat a vet like El Payaso

I don't need to. It's obvious that he is bending reality to fit his view.

I just point out "Catwoman has a long tradition of moving like a cat and making cat-like postures". He doesn't know it. Catwoman never acted like a cat. It's just not true.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

^ Dude go pick up some early 90's Catwoman comics and you'll prove yourself wrong, the way she moves, her personality is so much like a cat, even the cat noises she makes.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

^ Dude go pick up some early 90's Catwoman comics and you'll prove yourself wrong, the way she moves, her personality is so much like a cat, even the cat noises she makes.

THose comics were made AFTER Batman Returns

 

[El Payaso]

THose comics were made AFTER Batman Returns

You mean this is yet another thing Burton improved from the comic books? Wow. A true genius.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

God ****ing forbid that Catwoman act like a CAT.

Omfg.

 

[David Rice]

Yesyesyes, these things we always hear. It's not the killing, really. The 1940s Batman was not some depressed guy. As Bruce Wayne he was already a playboy with witty remarks. His interactions with Gordon and Julie Madison showed this. The "original Batman" threw out "one-liners" all the time. Hell, he even stopped to ask for the way once! Did I mention that this guy had friends? No. And in the original comics there was no Alfred. So. No.

Modern psychobabble. In the original comics he had a fiancee.

If you embrace Burton's depth you will see that she died but she has 9 lives or something like that! How clever! Zen galore!

it's S-T-U-P-I.D. Perhaps they (Knox and Vale) didn't know it, because they are to young but they could have just asked some older guy.

How was Keaton depressed? You're just choosing to look at it that way.

Modern psychobabble? How? Well, it seems you know so much about a the 1940's Batman, so who was she? And did you ever think that it was only for apperance? No, I guess not.

I don't need to embrace Burton's depth. She did not die. Once again you're just choosing to see it that way. Go read that part in the script.

Why is it S-T-U-P-I.D? If Bruce Waye was a real guy don't you think he go to any lenghts to keep his true identity secret? That would include gettting records sealed and removed.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Well either way all the way from the friggin 60's tv show Catwoman prrr''s and lounges around like a cat, even hisses, so I rest my godamn case lol.

 

[David Rice]

I don't need to. It's obvious that he is bending reality to fit his view.

I just point out "Catwoman has a long tradition of moving like a cat and making cat-like postures". He doesn't know it. Catwoman never acted like a cat. It's just not true.

I think it is you who is bending reality to fit his views.

Catwoman HAS ALWAYS acted like a cat. GO WATCH THE 60'S TV SHOW! GO READ THE 60'S COMICS!!!!!!

 

[David Rice]

Parents-Gun-Bat give it a rest you'll never beat a vet like El Payaso

Yeah, not to mention everyone here agrees with El!

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

^ I second that!

 

[The Guard]

Bruce Wayne was no less social than the one found in the comics of BATMAN BEGINS. The man was having a charity/gambling party at the beginning of BATMAN, and he was hitting on a beautiful woman there. He was also, in BATMAN, obviously well known in the community, because at Harvey Dent's rally, there's a seat reserved for Bruce with Gordon and the Mayor. He went out to meet Shreck in BATMAN RETURNS, so he's active in the business world on some level. He dated both Vicki and Selina, albeit briefly with Selina. He also went to the costume ball in BATMAN RETURNS. Hell, in BATMAN, he even went shopping.

Where is he being anti-social again?

Burton at least flipped through TKJ for Nicholson's direction. The Penguin was a reimagining altogether, and Catwoman was a hodge-podge. Nobody is denying that.

The Penguin was a reimagining, true, but not a complete one. Almost all of his classic elements were there. The attempts at social equality and acceptance. The outfit, the long nose, the monocle, the umbrella weapons. The bird themes. The only thing really missing was his "high end dialogue".

Catwoman may have been a hodge podge, but again, the basic elements were there, and the "feminist" elements of her were a damn sight more interesting and relevant than "cat-themed thief". Besides, she was a cat-themed terrorist.

He was nothing like the comics.

Yes he was. Don't make me argue this point. It will take forever.

A guy who sits in his chair and cries all the time because he has lost his parents 20 years ago is a loser.

Interesting concept of "loser" you have. Also an interesting concept of "crying".

Apparently, you have not read enough Batman comics to know that he still misses his parents, and is very much obsessed and stuck on what happened to them when he was a child.

It's just his view on Batman. Reading his introduction to his "Blind Justice" story gave me the same vibe.

Care to elaborate?

Yeah, licked by radioactive cats.

?

How deep!!! That's almost "Burton" to me, you know "Hello There" / "Hell Here" like. What a genius!

I never said it was deep, and I don't believe Tim Burton ever claimed himself to be a genius. Being a thief isn't deep either.

Yeah? Then show me the comic where Bruce Wayne seems to suffer from something like the Asperger syndrome or some attention deficit thing. He was totally unsure of himself. oh, and when did Bruce Wayne ever wear glasses? Does he wear contact lenses when he is out to fight crime? That's just something they added to show us "Ohh sis guy is intelligent". How deep, Mr Burton!

Where was he unsure of himself?

You seriously haven't figured out the glasses yet? They're called reading glasses. Even today, a lot of people who don't wear glasses or need corrective lenses use them to conserve their eyesight and reduce the strain on their eyes while reading or using a computer, or watching television.

I base it on the few scenes we see with "Bruce Wayne". He is a totally disturbed guy with some serious social phobias, it seems.

You must be selectively basing it. Where do you see the man having social phobias?

You know, dead girl, radioactive cats, resurrection
Or something like that.

She wasn't dead, and it's pretty obvious. She fell out a window and was knocked unconscious, and was undergoing some kind of mental transformation. She had amnesia. The ressurection or rebirth angle is symbolic, not actual.

Yesyesyes, these things we always hear. It's not the killing, really. The 1940s Batman was not some depressed guy.

Nor could you really call the Bruce Wayne of the Burton movies depressed. He was obsessed, and he brooded, but that doesn't neccessarily make someone depressed. You're right, the 1940's Batman wasn't "some depressed guy". He was a man who sat around in his robe reading newspapers and smoking his pipe and yawned when it was time to go to bed early.

Huge improvement over what the movie presented, right?

As Bruce Wayne he was already a playboy with witty remarks. His interactions with Gordon and Julie Madison showed this. The "original Batman" threw out "one-liners" all the time. Hell, he even stopped to ask for the way once! Did I mention that this guy had friends? No. And in the original comics there was no Alfred. So. No.

I'm not sure what your point is. Burton based some elements of his Batman movie on the early version of the character, not all of them. He also clearly took some elements from the 60's, 70's and 80's version of the character.

Modern psychobabble. In the original comics he had a fiancee.

And it didn't work out very well, did it? He also killed people, and had a Bat-Gyro, and cute little purple gloves. What's your point?

The truth is: Burton didn't really care about the source material, he tried to change everything to fit HIS vision.

Question: If he didn't care about the source material why did he include so many elements of it? Why did he bother to keep so many elements, say, of the designs intact?

And now? And why not? Afterall he used DEEP quotes like "You have a kind of dark side, don't yaa, Selina?" WOW! Sounds absolutely not forced! Romancing the stones!

Yes, where was the clever subtley of "This is your mask. Your real face is the one criminals now fear"?

 

[TMC1982]

Tim Burton himself admitted that he read Batman comics in order to do Batman 89. He mentioned The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns apart from the Bob Kane era comics.



By your original statement: “Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.” it seemed like you were.



Again, by your post you ruled out heroism when in fact was part of Burton’s Batman. Batman had every reason to be tough against crime and heroic about innocent people.



Or making a movie called King Kong or Jaws and giving the giant gorilla and the shark less screentime than the human characters.

Now, on a second thought, the shark thing worked pretty well.

I still think that is a problem about pre-determined thought. More screentime not always means more prominence.



You see then how calling an actor a previous character name unrelated to the movie we’re discussing brings an uncalled feel of bashing to it. Criticism about the movie I can get them. To call Dee Williams “Lando Calrissian” is bashing the election of the actor merely because of some past roles. Which is totally unrelated to your criticism of his race vs the original character’s race. Our next point btw.



So a comic can make such a change but not an adaptation? Any rerason for this biased authorization?



I have to ask, how is changing Harvey Dent to a Sicilian man is better or more acceptable than to change him to a black man?

Or making a movie called King Kong or Jaws and giving the giant gorilla and the shark less screentime than the human characters.

Now, on a second thought, the shark thing worked pretty well.

I still think that is a problem about pre-determined thought. More screentime not always means more prominence.

Sharks and giant apes don't talk or actually "act".

You see then how calling an actor a previous character name unrelated to the movie we’re discussing brings an uncalled feel of bashing to it. Criticism about the movie I can get them. To call Dee Williams “Lando Calrissian” is bashing the election of the actor merely because of some past roles. Which is totally unrelated to your criticism of his race vs the original character’s race. Our next point btw.

I wasn't making a direct attack on Billy Dee Williams. My point is that, I don't think you should ("stunt") cast somebody just for the sake of having name recognition.

I have to ask, how is changing Harvey Dent to a Sicilian man is better or more acceptable than to change him to a black man?

It was never officially addressed what Harvey Dent's ethnic/nationality background was on "Batman: The Animated Series". All that I'm saying is that, the animators seemed to design him that way. They actually initially wanted Al Pacino to do the voice of Harvey Dent before settling on Richard Moll.

 

[TMC1982]

If you read properly I was merely talking about the killing Batman issue. About that issue I’m right pointing out the Bob Kane era as the influence.

Because for that matter, where’s the comics where Ducard as Ra’s al Ghul are the same? Or where Ra’s is Batman’s original mentor? Or the comics where we meet Rachel Dawes the childhood Bruce’s little friend?

Does that (not being in a comic book) mean those elements didn’t work? No. Well, except for Rachel dawes, but that because of Katie Homes.

But about the killing Batman issue, that DOES have a precedent in comic books.

I'm not going waste my energy nitpicking every single aspect or detail of a comic book motion picture (concerning how accurate it is to the actual comics). At the rate you're going, we might as well criticize "Batman Forever" for depicting Two-Face as the man responsible for the death of Dick Grayson's parents, not Tony Zucco.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Sharks and giant apes don't talk or actually "act".

Andy Serkis would beg to differ.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

Batman Returns rocked, and got very little wrong!!!

After all these years, i don't need to justify my reason and i don't think anyone needs to nitpick at the movie.

IMHO,Burton is a genuis who helped to re-invigorate YOUR favourite character for the general public. Don't like - Don't watch.

 

[The Guard]

I wasn't making a direct attack on Billy Dee Williams. My point is that, I don't think you should ("stunt") cast somebody just for the sake of having name recognition.

Morgan Freeman as Lucious Fox.

I'm just saying.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

Batman Returns rocked, and got very little wrong!!!

After all these years, i don't need to justify my reason and i don't think anyone needs to nitpick at the movie.

IMHO,Burton is a genuis who helped to re-invigorate YOUR favourite character for the general public. Don't like - Don't watch.

Exactly! Well said.

 

[David Rice]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

Batman Returns rocked, and got very little wrong!!!

After all these years, i don't need to justify my reason and i don't think anyone needs to nitpick at the movie.

IMHO,Burton is a genuis who helped to re-invigorate YOUR favourite character for the general public. Don't like - Don't watch.

Thank you!

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I think anybody still actively attacking Burton's films are the ones who need to move on.

Christ. It's rediculous, immature and just downright moronic to continue complaining about films that are already over 15 years old. It totally lives up to the fanboy stereotype who never gets over anything. If you don't like it, say so and move on. Bickering and complaining is pointless and stupid. Especially since the films are already made. Burton isn't making Batman movies anymore. What good does beating the "Burton raped Batman!" horse do now? It's not breaking any new ground here.

Some people feel compelled to tear down the films if others still like them, apparently. Funny, I don't see how a continued fanbase for older films hurts those not included, enough for them to have cause to harass those whom they disagree with?

And while I've found (most) Burton fans to be nice, reserved people who dig the depth they see in the two films, the anti-Burton crowd tends to be obnoxious, loud, childish and unwilling to concede, nor give Burton and his films any credit in any small degree. Add to that their inability to move on from the films they disliked. It was fine to be vocal about it even into the late ninties. But now, with a new franchise running? Get. Over. It.

 

[El Payaso]

Sharks and giant apes don't talk or actually "act".

Which is 1) Not true, and 2) way off of the actual point I was making.

You obviously haven’t seen any of the King Kong’s movie, or you’d know a giant ape CAN act and become a loveable motion picture/actor in a suit/cgi character. That’s why people feel sorry for him when he dies.

Then again we have the incredibly vibrant and efficient presence of the shark in Jaws, even when we can’t actually see him, and even when he doesn’t have too many scenes. That proves you on the practice – not the theory – that a character doesn’t need more screentime than the rest in order to become a leading presence. Whicvh was my actual point.

I wasn't making a direct attack on Billy Dee Williams. My point is that, I don't think you should ("stunt") cast somebody just for the sake of having name recognition.

Prove that that was the actual intention.

In the meantime I’ll take the freedom to state that Dee Williams was cast for the sake of his talent.

It was never officially addressed what Harvey Dent's ethnic/nationality background was on "Batman: The Animated Series".

Nor it was on Batman 89.

All that I'm saying is that, the animators seemed to design him that way.

Which is my whole point. Black or Sicilian, they did change his race from the original comic books character, the same as Batman 89 makers did. The funny thing is that for you changing his race to Sicilian in BTAS doesn’t bother you but changing his race to black in B89 - somehow - does.

They actually initially wanted Al Pacino to do the voice of Harvey Dent before settling on Richard Moll.

Nice piece of trivia that relates to nothing of the discussed point.

I'm not going waste my energy nitpicking every single aspect or detail of a comic book motion picture (concerning how accurate it is to the actual comics).

You mean you’re “not going to keep wasting your time nitpicking every single aspect or detail of a comic book motion picture (concerning how accurate it is to the actual comics).”

As long as I remember you started a long nitpicking list of changes. Maybe you need a moment alone to reach an agreement with yourself?

At the rate you're going, we might as well criticize "Batman Forever" for depicting Two-Face as the man responsible for the death of Dick Grayson's parents, not Tony Zucco.

Hey, I might go even further on the nitpicking rate and say that:

- Batman brutally and intentionally kills his enemies with zero remorse. Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.

- Making the Joker the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents instead of Joe Chill.

- Lando Calrissian as Two-Face. Since when was Harvey Dent ever a black man?

- Burton also envisioned Marlon Wayans as Robin.

- The Penguin as a bile spitting, mutant/sewer rat instead of the level headed, gentleman criminal as he was originally intended to be.

- Catwoman as a bipolar, ex-secretary, who mystically (and magically gains martial arts and gymnastic skills in the process) gets revived by alley cats after her boss pushes her out of the window.

- Not showing enough of what inspired Bruce Wayne to become Batman in the first place. All that we know is that his parents got killed in front of him, and now his a reclusive nerd, who wants revenge (he uses his guise as an outlet to beat people who look at him funny up) against the world.


No no wait...


That was YOU.

Magically when I do the same kind of nitpicking on other bat-movies it seems to bother you.