List of Things Batman Returns got Right/Wrong

Discussion in 'Batman World' started by CFE, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. Superwoman Prime

    Superwoman Prime Damaged Beyond Repair

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    At any rate, MK's Bruce Wayne had more wit than you do:

     
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  2. Superwoman Prime

    Superwoman Prime Damaged Beyond Repair

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    And yes, I realize this is BR we're discussing... but these tired nitpicks are commonly levelled at Burton's Batman take as a whole.

    I could point to Bruce's interaction with Max Shreck (sp?) as proof that Wayne in Returns was sociable, albeit to a lesser extent than what we see in the comics these days.

    The whole "Bruce was a nerdy psycopath" doesn't really cut it. Some people just aren't getting it. They either aren't getting the spirit of the movies, or the comic era they were drawn from.

    Also: We never claimed that the Golden Age was the SOLE source aside from Batman the character as seen in B89/BR.

    Burton at least flipped through TKJ for Nicholson's direction. The Penguin was a reimagining altogether, and Catwoman was a hodge-podge. Nobody is denying that.
     
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  3. TMC1982

    TMC1982 Well-Known Member

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    Tim Burton himself, admitted that he doesn't read a lot of comic books. So how do you know for sure about his depth of knowledge of Batman?

    I never said that those aspects shouldn't be apart of Batman's universe (especially with characters like Joker and Two-Face). My point is that I felt that Tim Burton went way, way overboard with these themes and lack a certain sense of rhyme and reason.

    If the movies are called "Batman and "Batman Returns", then it would logically, make the most sense to give the most prominence to the title character. That would be like making a Superman film and giving more time and interest developing Lex Luthor.

    I know the actor's name (get a sense of humor while your at it). Just like Beetlejuice played Batman in Tim Burton's films, and Iceman from "Top Gun" and Danny Ocean played Batman in Joel Schumacher's films.

    The black Nick Fury was based on the "Ultimates" comics not from a film or television adaption. Two-Face on "Batman: The Animated Series" wasn't African American, he seemed to look more Italian (Scilian).
     
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  4. TMC1982

    TMC1982 Well-Known Member

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    The point of Batman not wanting to resort to killing criminals is because he feared that he would wound up becoming like the man who killed his parents. He didn't want to embody criminal-like methods himself. Did you have a problem with him then, not wanting to kill in Schumacher's films or "Batman Begins"?
     
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  5. TMC1982

    TMC1982 Well-Known Member

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    Where did it say in Batman's first incarnation that the Joker killed his parents?
     
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  6. Finlandman

    Finlandman Well-Known Member

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    Non-killing Batman has always been more heroic than killing Batman, and that's how it should be. Batman is a hero who fights against crime because of his love for humankind, not because he's some insane little boy. Because of his heart, he would never do something as evil as taking another man's life. Burton didn't understand this, but he still made very good movie that deservers all the credit it's been given.
     
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  7. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    The guy had his parents killed randomly when he was 6. You’ll understand he might be a strange, somehow emotionless and deranged guy.

    There’s nothing wrong about that approach. It’s Frank Miller’s approach, where Bruce Wayne it’s all of that.

    That said, he wasn’t totally emotionless. And even Batman begins – also influenced by Miller’s approach - got it right when it showed Bruce pretending to be the cool guy. But he wasn’t.

    Ridiculous. And a juvenil statement.

    Being in emotional pain is far from being a loser.

    And Burton’s Batman was cool. He said little and his movements were just a few, but everytime he moved, some guy fell to the floor unconscious.

    What makes me wonder, what do you expect from a poster who says things like "Burton’s Batman is a pathetic loser” :joker:

    The point is to be better than the source material.

    Yes, he is. He even looks and feels more of a penguin than just being a chubby guy with a big nose. And his motivations are not only as strong as the comic books' version but him being deformed makes him a real tragic figure with a more powerful resentment towards society.

    FAR better than the original. And still a penguin.

    Yes, he is.

    And so far that sounds far better then the comics version.

    They could have made the Penguin a real memorable tragic monster-like figure better than the original and some people would scream "Yeah, but it’s nothing like the comics".

    Because many elements from the original version are good. But the whole concept was still lame.

    Like when Shakespeare took Hamlet and made it a better character with a better story. He improved the original material just like Burton did with the Penguin.

    Again struggling with perfection for the sake of a tiny detail that wasn’t important for the story. What can I say, “It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time and is for a movie”

    So he did play a great Joker but darker? Booyah.

    You already monopolized that?

    ^ The illogical things monopoly.

    In comics and movies we know who he is. Yet some might reasonably think that a faceless murder is better for the story (revenge is impossible and pointless, crime has no face). And as much as I like B89 and BB's approaches, I find that quite a great idea.

    Yes, of course.

    In the movie it’s fully explained. Major Borg said to Gotham that the authorities couldn’t warrantee citizens’ safety.

    Yeah, manipulating a car is virtually an absurd concept. In the illogical things monopoly system maybe.

    Sure. Nipples, butts, neon lights, the anti-Two-Face, many Riddler’s riddles that points to... nowhere (“Mr. E”!???? That’s it???) It’s a pleasure. In the illogical things monopoly system that is.

    Oh sure.

    “Harvey, you need help. I can offer you a bunch of silver coins so you can lose balance and fall to your death. I hope you can appreciate my infinite compassion buddy.”

    Illogical monopoly strikes again.

    Highly perturbed by his parents’ death. Something that Schumacher was luckily able to keep from Burton’s movies.

    Those Academy guys can’t appreciate nipples! They need to go out more, in words of Schumacher himself.

    It symbolized how people you love fall much slower than any other kind of person (like Harvey Dent, who Batman refused to save as he did with Robin and Chase) so you can save them on time.

    I’ll tell you wtf.

    Schumacher got many elements terribly wrong. And the changes were for the worst. Opposite to Burton’s movies. Two-Face was nothing of Two-Face and Riddler was played as Frank-Gorshin-gone-homicidal. ;)
     
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  8. Finlandman

    Finlandman Well-Known Member

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    Now, settle down. Just agree to disagree and go to some other forum to have fun.
     
    #108
  9. Cain

    Cain I Heart Amazons

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    And his interactions with Vicki Vale didn't?

    "to tell you the truth I don't even think I've ever eaten in this room before"

    "one drink and I'm flying"

    and then poof off to the sack they went.


    You have seemed to conveniently forget about Silver St. Cloud and how his relationship with her was also an influence used in this movie.
     
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  10. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Yes he was. Deeply perturbed and obssessive.

    So basically you don’t even like the Batman concept. Or your comprehension of the character is so vastly poor that all you can throw is that ignorant half-assed definition of both what a loser is and what a traumatized person is.

    Any average person can cry his parents’ death for 20 years even if they weren’t killed. Most of us are able to see that reality and deal with it.

    It’s as juvenile as saying “compassionate people are losers.”

    That said, you might want to check your dvd player. It seems to be distorting images. There’s no scene where Bruce Wayne or Batman is crying. Except in that underrated masterpiece called Batman Forever. So I suggest you should call tech support as soon as possible.

    Yes, it seems that directors, much as writers in comics and movies have their own views on the characters they work with.

    It’s never late to learn the most obvious things of this life. I encourage you to keep going.

    It seems your dvd player is distorting images. You might want to check it. I suggest you should call tech support as soon as possible.

    Now, if you happen to have gotten the scene entirely wrong, the “tech support” for that might be considerably more expensive.

    Mh. So far the aforementioned words game has more wit in it than any of your criticisms. So please appreciate it.
     
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  11. Cain

    Cain I Heart Amazons

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    I could cite plenty of comics where Bruce Wayne came across as an aloof person. This is how he has portrayed himself in public for decades as someone who is rich but also somewhat dumb not a spoiled snob. Granted Keaton/Burton took it to another level by making him more introverted but it served for the purpose of what they were trying to portray a more realistic take on a guy who plays dumb in public. There are many rich guys in real life who are that way it's the same way Bale/Nolan had him act like a complete jerk which is different from the comics but again a more realistic take as there are many rich people who also act that way in real life as well.
     
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  12. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Show me the movie where Bruce Wayne seems to suffer from something like the Asperger syndrome or some attention deficit thing.

    I mean, other than Batman & Robin.

    As many times in comics Batman is unsure of his crimefighter career.

    And where did he wear that scarf from batman begins? And where did he wear that housecoat? And where did he wear that watch?

    I thought you were the one saying “It's not that they changed the source material, that happens all the time.”

    Maybe you want a moment alone to reach an agreement with yourself?

    As much as many scenes that prove the same thing.

    He, in fact, was.

    As many people with severe child traumas. Something else that urton got better than many comics.

    Still, that is not crying. You owe us a rectification.

    Haven’t you called tech support for your defective dvd player yet?

    Or it’s still the getting scenes wrong thing?

    That blind people pictogram might sum up accurately much of your criticism.
     
    #112
  13. Parents-Gun-Bat

    Parents-Gun-Bat Well-Known Member

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    No he was not. He started to dedicate his life to help other people. He has never been portrayed disturbed until Burton's Batman came around (Frank Miller doesn't count. DKR played at the end of Batman's career and in Y1 he was quite normal). Yeah, yeah, I know "who can a guy who dresses up like a bat be normal"? I tell you: He doesn't think he is a bat, he just uses the motif and the night as an advantage because he hasn't any superpowers. And, BTW; he lives in world where it's quite normal to wear a mask and fight/or commit crimes. The murder of his parents was seldom mentioned, more in some of Batman's sentimental moments. Oh and of course I talk about the Batman before Zero Hour, before he became a truly deranged nutcase - but this guy doesn't count because he didn't exist in 1989.
     
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  14. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    The curious thing is not why you keep hearing the truth but why you keep refusing to accept it.

    The Frank Miller’s Batman is deppressive.

    As many director, Burton chose the best elements of different eras that worked into the same context.

    Like he had in all of the movies.

    I suggest you should call tech support for your dvd player. It seems to be skipping scenes.

    If you embrace your IQ you will see she survived as many other characters survive dangerous situations. Not because of any super-power.

    Selina, in his twisted mind, was convinced it was the fact that she was a cat. But it wasn’t in reality.

    Or they could have searched amongst the old newspapers files. :)
     
    #114
  15. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Desperation leads to many kind of vagueness.
     
    #115
  16. DaRkVeNgeanCe

    DaRkVeNgeanCe An Epic Film Guy

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    Wow this thread is going nuts looks like the Nut-Gun person is stirring up the honey pot.
     
    #116
  17. Parents-Gun-Bat

    Parents-Gun-Bat Well-Known Member

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    The truth is: Burton didn't really care about the source material, he tried to change everything to fit HIS vision.

    For the record. Burton's Batman has nothing to do with Miller'S DKR Batman. Yes, yes, they both wear bat costumes. But Miller's Batman is 80s! He is loud, aggressive, extroverted. Burton's Batman is silent, passive and introverted. (Same goes for his "Bruce Wayne")
    Yeah, like the Penguin and Catwoman, back then in the "Gothic Age of comics".

    And now? And why not? Afterall he used DEEP quotes like "You have a kind of dark side, don't yaa, Selina?" WOW! Sounds absolutely not forced! Romancing the stones!
    :dry:


    It was at least hinted that she became some supernatural girl. She started to jump around and do martial arts afterwards. :whatever:
    Every time I see Selina Kyle moving like a real cat I feel a little bit embarrassed. Like Selina Kyle is supposed to be a human cat :whatever:


    They aren't too bright, i think that's a fact.
     
    #117
  18. Superwoman Prime

    Superwoman Prime Damaged Beyond Repair

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    So you're saying someone who devotes themself to fighting for justice can't simultaneously struggle with internal demons (Demons being a metaphor here)......
     
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  19. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Tim Burton himself admitted that he read Batman comics in order to do Batman 89. He mentioned The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns apart from the Bob Kane era comics.

    By your original statement: “Tim Burton seemed to think that Batman should be some quirky, neurotic psycho with a death wish, not a heroic adventure, who is more altruistic in his goals.” it seemed like you were.

    Again, by your post you ruled out heroism when in fact was part of Burton’s Batman. Batman had every reason to be tough against crime and heroic about innocent people.

    Or making a movie called King Kong or Jaws and giving the giant gorilla and the shark less screentime than the human characters.

    Now, on a second thought, the shark thing worked pretty well.

    I still think that is a problem about pre-determined thought. More screentime not always means more prominence.

    You see then how calling an actor a previous character name unrelated to the movie we’re discussing brings an uncalled feel of bashing to it. Criticism about the movie I can get them. To call Dee Williams “Lando Calrissian” is bashing the election of the actor merely because of some past roles. Which is totally unrelated to your criticism of his race vs the original character’s race. Our next point btw.

    So a comic can make such a change but not an adaptation? Any rerason for this biased authorization?

    I have to ask, how is changing Harvey Dent to a Sicilian man is better or more acceptable than to change him to a black man?
     
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  20. Parents-Gun-Bat

    Parents-Gun-Bat Well-Known Member

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    BTAS Harvey Dent was not black and sicilian it just looked a little bit like that because of the hair style.
     
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  21. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary.

    I felt that Batman Forever took that in quite a good way. After some years in the “business” Batman finally got a void feeling out of his crime-fighting career. He learnt that killing the criminals wouldn’t make his pain go away. It took him some years to get to that.

    Which leads me to B Begins.

    Begins handled the revenge/ non killing aspect brilliantly. The origin story – which was as inaccurate as Burton’s by the way – explained in an excellent way why Bruce was like that. He didn’t born a hero. He did think about revenge a big deal. But it was circumstances what showed him that was not the way. It was brilliant.

    But, as I said in another thread, both movies handled the story quite well being completely different circumstances. The fact I love how Batman 89 handled the origin story has never meant I can’t accept a totally different approach as long as it makes sense.
     
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  22. Superwoman Prime

    Superwoman Prime Damaged Beyond Repair

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    [​IMG]

    Those are pretty full lips.

    He is sorta reminiscent of... Jay Leno.
     
    #122
  23. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    If you read properly I was merely talking about the killing Batman issue. About that issue I’m right pointing out the Bob Kane era as the influence.

    Because for that matter, where’s the comics where Ducard as Ra’s al Ghul are the same? Or where Ra’s is Batman’s original mentor? Or the comics where we meet Rachel Dawes the childhood Bruce’s little friend?

    Does that (not being in a comic book) mean those elements didn’t work? No. Well, except for Rachel dawes, but that because of Katie Homes.

    But about the killing Batman issue, that DOES have a precedent in comic books.
     
    #123
  24. Parents-Gun-Bat

    Parents-Gun-Bat Well-Known Member

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    yeah, like Superman, Hawkman, Micky Mouse.
     
    #124
  25. DaRkVeNgeanCe

    DaRkVeNgeanCe An Epic Film Guy

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    ^ How do those examples have anything to do with that?
     
    #125

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