Logan Logan - news & discussion - Part 2

[Snikt]

Wasn't there supposed to be a panel for LOGAN at the Brazil Comic Con yesterday? It was supposed to be held on Friday.

Unless their Friday is out Saturday due to the time zones

 

[X-Maniac]

Tom Rothman is responsible for all the deaths in The Last Stand. XMA was just expanding on Xavier's arc from DOFP.

Stop making excuses. Tom Rothman has nothing to do with the deaths in DoFP, XM:A or the upcoming Logan.

There's just a dreadful downbeat tone to all the movies.

These are supposed to be the next stage of human evolution, yet they're more like doomed Neanderthals than advanced Cro-Magnon.

Getting bored with this bleak, morbid tone now.

 

[X-Maniac]

One of the core concepts of the X-Men as an idea, both within the films and comics has always been the mutant race struggling to survive persecution and tragedy. It's one of the reasons why Magneto, a holocaust survivor, is one of the main figures in the story. But the films have never been about dwelling on death and cynicism. On the contrary these are films primarily about hope, fighting on despite the hardships. They all but spell that out for the audience in Days of Future Past. The mutant race survived the cure, it survived the Sentinels and survived Apocalypse. I've no doubt in my mind that it'll survive whatever it is that has brought them down during the time of Logan.

That's not the point.

These are supposed to be the next stage of human evolution.

But the films are obsessed with death - or with concluding the various arcs and stories. They aren't a launchpad for anything, they are about finality and closure.

This way of thinking is not a good way to tackle a franchise with infinite possibilities.

I'd like to see it turned on its head, with mutants thriving and humans under real threat. Then we could see humans driven to desperate measures because Homo Sapiens was dying out.

At the moment, mutants seem like a genetic mistake doomed to extinction. After all, the most powerful and enduring so far (Apocalypse) was born tens of thousands of years ago, with mutants since then being far less powerful. What happened to the mutant gene in that time? It doesn't feel like mutants will succeed and become the next stage of evolution, they are doomed. Only Jean/Phoenix was capable of stopping Apocalypse and we all know what happens to her character eventually, so she is just a one-off fluke.

 

[Stan Lee]

Stop making excuses. Tom Rothman has nothing to do with the deaths in DoFP, XM:A or the upcoming Logan.

There's just a dreadful downbeat tone to all the movies.

These are supposed to be the next stage of human evolution, yet they're more like doomed Neanderthals than advanced Cro-Magnon.

Getting bored with this bleak, morbid tone now.

I explicitly said The Last Stand. Nothing about those other films.

 

[Smilodon]

Wasn't there supposed to be a panel for LOGAN at the Brazil Comic Con yesterday? It was supposed to be held on Friday.

Unless their Friday is out Saturday due to the time zones

The Universo X-Men account said they watched an exclusive scene from Logan, though I don't see any descriptions around.

https://***********/universoxmen/status/804799942434897920

 

[Roose Bolton]

That's not the point.

These are supposed to be the next stage of human evolution.

But the films are obsessed with death - or with concluding the various arcs and stories. They aren't a launchpad for anything, they are about finality and closure.

This way of thinking is not a good way to tackle a franchise with infinite possibilities.

I'd like to see it turned on its head, with mutants thriving and humans under real threat. Then we could see humans driven to desperate measures because Homo Sapiens was dying out.

At the moment, mutants seem like a genetic mistake doomed to extinction. After all, the most powerful and enduring so far (Apocalypse) was born tens of thousands of years ago, with mutants since then being far less powerful. What happened to the mutant gene in that time? It doesn't feel like mutants will succeed and become the next stage of evolution, they are doomed. Only Jean/Phoenix was capable of stopping Apocalypse and we all know what happens to her character eventually, so she is just a one-off fluke.

See, that's where you're wrong. We as an audience are never given an exact explaination saying that mutants are in fact the next step forward. Magneto calls humans "the Neanderthal" but he isn't exactly an unbiased source. Xavier himself even lays out the ambiguouity in the opening of X2:

"Mutants. Since the discovery of their existence they have been regarded with fear, suspicion, often hatred. Across the planet, debate rages. Are mutants the next link in the evolutionary chain or simply a new species of humanity fighting for their share of the world? Either way it is a historical fact: Sharing the world has never been humanity's defining attribute."

 

[X-Maniac]

See, that's where you're wrong. We as an audience are never given an exact explaination saying that mutants are in fact the next step forward. Magneto calls humans "the Neanderthal" but he isn't exactly an unbiased source. Xavier himself even lays out the ambiguouity in the opening of X2:

Xavier's university thesis (mentioned in First Class) was built on the idea that mutants are the next stage in human evolution. Trask himself mentions it in DoFP.

In the source material they're even called Homo Superior.

All this means leading scientists/experts clearly believe mutants are the next stage of humanity, through their assembled evidence, even if it hasn't all been shared with the viewer.

I wouldn't be surprised if the studio execs can only accept the X-Men as genetic deviants, failures and freaks. It also fits with the gay allegory to portray them as a minority that some people see as 'wrong'. There are those bigots out there in the real world who believe gays' inability to reproduce among themselves means they are biologically useless and thus must be genetic errors, and that Aids is 'proof' that gays are 'not meant to be' and something nature is trying to eradicate. Horribly controversial.

But I think it would be refreshing (and very welcome) to turn the idea round and see mutants thriving and normal humanity struggling.

Maybe a future where mutants ruled and humanity was all but extinct. Humans threatened with all-out extinction would be driven to desperate measures in order to try to survive.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Xavier's university thesis (mentioned in First Class) was built on the idea that mutants are the next stage in human evolution. Trask himself mentions it in DoFP.

In the source material they're even called Homo Superior.

All this means leading scientists/experts clearly believe mutants are the next stage of humanity, through their assembled evidence, even if it hasn't all been shared with the viewer.

I wouldn't be surprised if the studio execs can only accept the X-Men as genetic deviants, failures and freaks. It also fits with the gay allegory to portray them as a minority that some people see as 'wrong'. There are those bigots out there in the real world who believe gays' inability to reproduce among themselves means they are biologically useless and thus must be genetic errors, and that Aids is 'proof' that gays are 'not meant to be' and something nature is trying to eradicate. Horribly controversial.

But I think it would be refreshing (and very welcome) to turn the idea round and see mutants thriving and normal humanity struggling.

Maybe a future where mutants ruled and humanity was all but extinct. Humans threatened with all-out extinction would be driven to desperate measures in order to try to survive.

Xaiver wrote that thesis in college, yet as an older man he mentions that it is possible that mutants are simply a side branch of humanity, that to me shows that as he matured he became less full of himself and conceded that it was possible that he and his people weren't the ones to carry the future.

And if you want to talk about the comics then I'd suggest you read House of M, the Legacy Virus, Inhumans vs X-Men, Death of X and this little known comic called "Days of Future Past." The notion that it's the film franchise that is obsessed with the extinction of mutants is outright fallacy when compared to how Marvel themselves have treated the species in the comics.

I'm not even going to get into the whole "Studio execs are bigots who hate mutants" because, quite frankly, it's insane.

 

[X-Maniac]

Xaiver wrote that thesis in college, yet as an older man he mentions that it is possible that mutants are simply a side branch of humanity, that to me shows that as he matured he became less full of himself and conceded that it was possible that he and his people weren't the ones to carry the future.

That voiceover could have been written (or rewritten) to appease the perceptions of others. That whole 'side branch' thing has never been mentioned before or since, and i don't recall it being mentioned in the comics either.

And if you want to talk about the comics then I'd suggest you read House of M, the Legacy Virus, Inhumans vs X-Men, Death of X and this little known comic called "Days of Future Past." The notion that it's the film franchise that is obsessed with the extinction of mutants is outright fallacy when compared to how Marvel themselves have treated the species in the comics.

Yes, the comics have had those extinction-centred stories too. Thankfully not all of them, there are many other stories with many other themes.

What I'm really getting at is that the films seem focused on finality and conclusion. They always seem to be about endings (and include a lot of death along the way). I don't detect much of a bright future for the X-Men, and Logan looks like the latest example - it looks like this is the film that shows the end of Wolverine, the end of Xavier and the end of the X-Men. I can't see how that's much of a launchpad for the future, something to get audience excited for what's coming next.

XM:A did a similar thing - despite ending with the mansion being rebuilt and the team in costume, the overriding impression it leaves is of conclusion, wrapping things up, tying a neat bow around everything.

I'm not even going to get into the whole "Studio execs are bigots who hate mutants" because, quite frankly, it's insane.

LOL...I wouldn't be so sure. Execs wouldn't greenlight the Phoenix Saga (mutants as gods) as the sole story focus of X3 but were happy for the cure (mutants as a disease) to be the main plot. They are also not keen on the idea of Genosha (Magneto's mutant kingdom) featuring in the movies, which is why we've never seen that on screen yet.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Things are often bleek in comics too.

APocalypse was both conclusion of first class trilogy and singerverse.

Logan is end of wolverine.i have always had reservations on old man logan film.DOFP and apocalypse cameo would have been fiting goodbye to jackman.

If fassbender agrees to play magneto in more films i have no idea what they would do with him.

thing to remember genosha had history in comics long before magneto took it over.

 

[NotNickFury]

Do Kinberg or Fox even have that in mind, though, I wonder, because there's a treasure trove of X-Men material for them to use if the right writer and director are involved. As far as the main series goes, we know they've talked of doing an X-Men film in space, as well as redoing Phoenix. Dunno about beyond that, though.

 

[Roose Bolton]

What I'm really getting at is that the films seem focused on finality and conclusion. They always seem to be about endings (and include a lot of death along the way). I don't detect much of a bright future for the X-Men, and Logan looks like the latest example - it looks like this is the film that shows the end of Wolverine, the end of Xavier and the end of the X-Men. I can't see how that's much of a launchpad for the future, something to get audience excited for what's coming next.

XM:A did a similar thing - despite ending with the mansion being rebuilt and the team in costume, the overriding impression it leaves is of conclusion, wrapping things up, tying a neat bow around everything.

XM:A was the end of a trilogy of prequel films that begun with First Class and the last film Bryan Singer worked on within the franchise, naturally certain elements are going to be concluded and character arcs are going to come full circle. But beyond that, it ended with a whole new generation of X-Men getting introduced and set up to become heroes with their own adventures, it very much served as a launchpad for future instalments. Logan, on the otherhand is not supposed to be a Batman vs Superman film that sets up the next direction of the franchise, it's an epilogue to Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart and their depiction of Wolverine and Professor X.

LOL...I wouldn't be so sure. Execs wouldn't greenlight the Phoenix Saga (mutants as gods) as the sole story focus of X3 but were happy for the cure (mutants as a disease) to be the main plot. They are also not keen on the idea of Genosha (Magneto's mutant kingdom) featuring in the movies, which is why we've never seen that on screen yet.

They wouldn't greenlight Singer's Phoenix Saga pitch because 1)Bryan left Fox to do Superman Returns before there was a completed script and they took it personally 2) Because the concept would have warranted a massive budget on the scale of Star Wars and they were under the leadership of Tom Rothman at the time, who is notorious for penny pinching and slashing the budgets of several blockbuster films. The cure storyline was chosen because Joss Whedon's run on the comics was hot at the time and his long history with Fox made his ideas appealing. They even introduced the concept of Phoenix back into the films to use again properly in a future film. There is no hidden agenda, it's a crazy fanboy notion.

 

[Smilodon]

Twitter reports from the con in Brazil state that Hugh introduced a scene via video message, which turned out to be none other than the dinner scene between Logan, Charles and Laura.

Considering how just those three frames in the trailer packed an emotional whalloping, I'm envious of those fans for sure.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Twitter reports from the con in Brazil state that Hugh introduced a scene via video message, which turned out to be none other than the dinner scene between Logan, Charles and Laura.

Considering how just those three frames in the trailer packed an emotional whalloping, I'm envious of those fans for sure.

Definitely, the trailer made it look a great moment.

 

[Legion]

That voiceover could have been written (or rewritten) to appease the perceptions of others. That whole 'side branch' thing has never been mentioned before or since, and i don't recall it being mentioned in the comics either.



Yes, the comics have had those extinction-centred stories too. Thankfully not all of them, there are many other stories with many other themes.

What I'm really getting at is that the films seem focused on finality and conclusion. They always seem to be about endings (and include a lot of death along the way). I don't detect much of a bright future for the X-Men, and Logan looks like the latest example - it looks like this is the film that shows the end of Wolverine, the end of Xavier and the end of the X-Men. I can't see how that's much of a launchpad for the future, something to get audience excited for what's coming next.

XM:A did a similar thing - despite ending with the mansion being rebuilt and the team in costume, the overriding impression it leaves is of conclusion, wrapping things up, tying a neat bow around everything.



LOL...I wouldn't be so sure. Execs wouldn't greenlight the Phoenix Saga (mutants as gods) as the sole story focus of X3 but were happy for the cure (mutants as a disease) to be the main plot. They are also not keen on the idea of Genosha (Magneto's mutant kingdom) featuring in the movies, which is why we've never seen that on screen yet.

The way I see it is the X-Men series is a long running series and it's completing it's third trilogy with Logan. Most film series aren't lucky enough to make it to a 4th film and maintain quality. It's a good idea to wrap things up with what could be perceived as a good ending in case there are no more films.


MCU has just completed two trilogies with Iron Man and Captain America. In Iron Man 3 Tony Stark destroys his suits and undergoes a surgery to remove the shrapnel near his heart. It definitely seems like a conclusion where Stark is done being Iron Man.

As far as killing off characters I feel like they have established a grounded world where the characters are mortal and death is a real consequence. I don't think they have always made the right decisions about killing off characters but I understand why they would kill off characters they never plan to use again.

I have mentioned before I would have loved to have seen Age of Apocalypse adapted to a film or series of films. That would have given us a world where mutants rise to power and humans are the ones being persecuted. Eventually though, fans and the studio would want things to return to the status quo.

I don't think there's a lot of interest in a film where mutants become dominant in a utopian society. A world where mutants have replaced humans and everything else is "normal". The X-Men are still super heroes and that works when they're protecting humans (the audience). Xavier wants humans and mutants to coexist peacefully. If there are no more humans then the X-Men have no purpose.


I'm not that concerned where Logan leaves things. I just want it to be good film. The future of the X-Men series is uncertain but it seems like it may be stuck in the past setting for sometime. By the time it catches up to the 2020 timeline people may have already lost interest in the series and there's no more films at all or the series is rebooted.

 

[GuestStar2004]

When it comes to this series it doesn't matter when its set, it could be set in the past, present, future, outa space, its not about any of that, if a film catches you then you will likely see it either way.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Too many has this sudden obsession with films being set In present day.while some just went X-Men to interact with deadpool.trying to turn franchise into
deadpool and X-Men is worse than doing films wolverine and X-men.at least wolverine was the most popular X-man.sorry people but it was the truth,and why he was choosen as focal character for first X-men.

What evidance is there they are even planning to catch up to deadpool films setting.the reported early 1990's setting of next X-Men film may be to both take advantage of time where X-Men was at it's peak and to have a more exceperenced team.the rumored dark phoenix film could be start of 1990's set trilogy.and with original cast done who are people expecting to be in present day set X-Men film.

now if after deadpool:X-force fox reboots X-Men then yes they will be In present day.

the most successful full X-Men film Days of future past was 75% set In past and 25% set in future.while others think first class is best X related film not named deadpool which i don't agree with but that film is set entirely In the past.The original trilogy was quite vague when they came out exactly when they took place.If X-23 is indeed part of X-force then deadpool III is set in future after events of Logan.

 

[psylockolussus]

Or some would just eat what Fox is trying to serve even if it doesn't benefit certain characters. And staying in the past (especially after 3 films) is not advisable for a series that started in a present day setting and with the other films still set in a present day setting. Marvel and DC aren't doing that except for their Ca/Ww origin films.

 

[magneto23]

Or some would just eat what Fox is trying to serve even if it doesn't benefit certain characters.

In all likelihood it will benefit Cyclops and Jean Grey. And their relationship. That's paramount for X-Men IMO. Storm and Nightcrawler would benefit. Maybe Beast as well. Jubilee a little bit too. Even with a full reboot, certain characters wont reap the benefits. That's always going to be an issue with a film series with so many characters and so few movies. So there's always going to be "certain characters" that are going to be SOL.

And staying in the past (especially after 3 films) is not advisable for a series that started in a present day setting

A 17 year old series that has gone through a reboot of sorts already. The timeline has been reset.

and with the other films still set in a present day setting.

Yeah Deadpool. He will be interacting with X-Force. Shouldn't really matter if X-Men are around or not.

Marvel and DC aren't doing that except for their Ca/Ww origin films.

So what?

 

[GuestStar2004]

It doesn't sound like the deadpool guys want the X-Men around anyway, its always just been fans who assumed everyone involves wants to milk deadpool for all his worth and have him in everything.

Again i will say we don't know when X-Force is set, it wouldn't surprise me if its in the Logan future setting.

 

[X-Maniac]

XM:A was the end of a trilogy of prequel films that begun with First Class and the last film Bryan Singer worked on within the franchise, naturally certain elements are going to be concluded and character arcs are going to come full circle. But beyond that, it ended with a whole new generation of X-Men getting introduced and set up to become heroes with their own adventures, it very much served as a launchpad for future instalments.

That remains to be seen.

It was far more closure and full circle than anything else.

Logan, on the otherhand is not supposed to be a Batman vs Superman film that sets up the next direction of the franchise, it's an epilogue to Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart and their depiction of Wolverine and Professor X.

We get it. He's bowing out. And we never even saw him take on Omega Red (would have been nice opportunity to bring in other Russian mutants such as Darkstar, one of my favourites).

I get it that Jackman has been in this role for 16 years and can't maintain the look (especially the bodybuilding regime) for ever. I just hope the movie is worth it in the end.

They wouldn't greenlight Singer's Phoenix Saga pitch because 1)Bryan left Fox to do Superman Returns before there was a completed script and they took it personally 2) Because the concept would have warranted a massive budget on the scale of Star Wars and they were under the leadership of Tom Rothman at the time, who is notorious for penny pinching and slashing the budgets of several blockbuster films. The cure storyline was chosen because Joss Whedon's run on the comics was hot at the time and his long history with Fox made his ideas appealing. They even introduced the concept of Phoenix back into the films to use again properly in a future film. There is no hidden agenda, it's a crazy fanboy notion.

Again, the bolded part remains to be seen.

There's also the worry over whether they will do it justice the second time around. Or whether the mainstream audience will accept a redo of something they already saw, especially considering criticism of familiar elements in XM:A.

 

[Smilodon]

http://universoxmen.com.br/2016/12/...a-uma-cena-do-filme-logan-confiram-descricao/

A description of the dinner scene shown to fans at the con in Brazil the other day. Be careful, it is a bit spoiler-y if you can read Portuguese or use Google Translate.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Spoiler

Sounds like the school definitely doesn't exist anymore

 

[marvelrobbins]

Spoiler

Makes sense If X-23 is first mutant in years for the school to be no more

 

[Stan Lee]

Spoiler

I love the humor.