Mystery/Thriller LOST - But Not Forgotten...Except by the Emmys - Part 1

[Ipodman]

So when we saw the flashbacks in season 1 -3, the characters were actually already time travelling without knowing it?

 

[chaseter]

They only time traveled on island.

 

[Maximus One]

See this is why I stopped thinking too much into it. After the whole compass paradox I just stopped trying to hard and just enjoy the show. That damn compass still messes with me though. That damn thing is stuck in such a crazy time loop it's ****ing insane. That thing should have corroded into nothing upon introduction into the time-line

 

[Spider-Gnome]

My favorite part of the time travel part was John creating his own destiny of being "special". I thought that was a pretty aspect the time travel season.

See, this is what I thought was the main point of the time travel and what I argued to people who thought the time travel was pointless. It was part of the Man In Black's plan to make Locke seem "special," particularly to Richard so Richard would make him the Others' leader. Richard checks up on the story at Locke's birth, testing him as a boy, and trying to sign the teen to science camp. In the 70's, Jack tells Richard to not give up on Locke. And Richard helps Locke pass Ben's "kill your father" test by giving him Sawyer's file.

Note that when not-Locke and Ben finally confront Jacob, he says, "Do you have any idea what I had to go through to get here?" or something similar.

I always wondered if what happened to Desmond was happening to everyone. Desmond could just remember it.

That was a pet theory of mine after we saw Desmond's consciousness time travel. It was a neat idea that the flashbacks weren't just a narrative device.

Yes, narratively the show was traveling sporadically through time long before the characters were literally time-traveling. That's part of the reason why it worked; it wasn't as big of a stretch as it may have seemed on the surface.

Same with the flashsideways, but in a different way. We were viewing what appeared to be two different worlds with the island story and mainland story, even though in that case we knew exactly how they were related. The sideways was basically no different to the flashbacks and forwards in this way, we just didn't know how it related to the island story until the end.

Agree. Yes, flashbacks, flashforwards, flashsideways, Desmond unstuck in time, and literal time travel all worked narratively the same.

And ultimately, the flashsideways turned out to be a flashforward. Interestingly, Desmond being able to have his consciousness unstuck allowed his consciousness to travel to a time after he died!

Well, the well wasn't there when they traveled back when John was going down there. Remember, he flashed and Sawyer was holding the rope. I assumed that Jacobs bro finished it afterward he turned into Smokey. So I just figured Locke was really the first one to turn it.

Wow! I had not thought of that! It is interesting since ultimately, the show's premise was "whatever happened happened."

Somewhere on line, I found someone had edited all of Lost chronologically. Showing everything that happens, from when Jacob & MIB's real mother washes ashore to Jack's death (with the flashsideways as an epilogue) in chronological order. And I should have noticed it, but yes, the first time you see the wheel turned is by Locke.

It was an interesting site, because for one of my rewatches, that's what I wanted to do. It just seemed daunting (plus a lot of taking discs out and putting them back in).

 

[Donut]

See, this is what I thought was the main point of the time travel and what I argued to people who thought the time travel was pointless. It was part of the Man In Black's plan to make Locke seem "special," particularly to Richard so Richard would make him the Others' leader. Richard checks up on the story at Locke's birth, testing him as a boy, and trying to sign the teen to science camp. In the 70's, Jack tells Richard to not give up on Locke. And Richard helps Locke pass Ben's "kill your father" test by giving him Sawyer's file.

Note that when not-Locke and Ben finally confront Jacob, he says, "Do you have any idea what I had to go through to get here?" or something similar.



That was a pet theory of mine after we saw Desmond's consciousness time travel. It was a neat idea that the flashbacks weren't just a narrative device.



Agree. Yes, flashbacks, flashforwards, flashsideways, Desmond unstuck in time, and literal time travel all worked narratively the same.

And ultimately, the flashsideways turned out to be a flashforward. Interestingly, Desmond being able to have his consciousness unstuck allowed his consciousness to travel to a time after he died!



Wow! I had not thought of that! It is interesting since ultimately, the show's premise was "whatever happened happened."

Somewhere on line, I found someone had edited all of Lost chronologically. Showing everything that happens, from when Jacob & MIB's real mother washes ashore to Jack's death (with the flashsideways as an epilogue) in chronological order. And I should have noticed it, but yes, the first time you see the wheel turned is by Locke.

It was an interesting site, because for one of my rewatches, that's what I wanted to do. It just seemed daunting (plus a lot of taking discs out and putting them back in).

Is there an edit out there that shows only the Island stuff & in order without the flash backs & flash forwards ? The only off island stuff that would be seen is Desmond getting the group to remember the Island

 

[Brother Jack]

So when we saw the flashbacks in season 1 -3, the characters were actually already time travelling without knowing it?

No, the story was traveling through time with the flashbacks and forwards.

 

[Marvolo]

I had never thought about Locke being the first to turn the wheel. I have watched Lost countless times from day one, and I am still discovering things about it.

 

[Ghostvirus]

See, this is what I thought was the main point of the time travel and what I argued to people who thought the time travel was pointless. It was part of the Man In Black's plan to make Locke seem "special," particularly to Richard so Richard would make him the Others' leader. Richard checks up on the story at Locke's birth, testing him as a boy, and trying to sign the teen to science camp. In the 70's, Jack tells Richard to not give up on Locke. And Richard helps Locke pass Ben's "kill your father" test by giving him Sawyer's file.

Note that when not-Locke and Ben finally confront Jacob, he says, "Do you have any idea what I had to go through to get here?" or something similar.

Do you think that was really Locke's father? I think it was old smokey. Cooper seemed so much more *****e than usual in that episode.

 

[Sawyer]

The guy conned his son out of a kidney, killed a young kid checking up on him before he was about to con the kid's mother and then threw his son out of a window when he called him on it. Guy was a *****e.

 

[Heffer Wolf]

Do you think that was really Locke's father? I think it was old smokey. Cooper seemed so much more *****e than usual in that episode.

I thought that was definatly Cooper. I assumed the others just made him crash his car and brought his ass to the island, and I'm pretty sure that whole "magic box" stuff was a load of ****, made up by Ben like he made up Jacob (not Jacob Jacob, but creepy cabin season 3 Jacob). The only thing I don't understand is why Richard went along with all of it.

 

[Ipodman]

But Jacob helped Ben in creating that creepy house right?

I mean, when Ben showed John the house, Jacob came in and added more special effects which shocked even Ben... or am I remembering something wrong...

 

[The Apocalypse]

But Jacob helped Ben in creating that creepy house right?

I mean, when Ben showed John the house, Jacob came in and added more special effects which shocked even Ben... or am I remembering something wrong...

I don't think Ben helped Jacob make the cabin.

 

[Brother Jack]

The guy in the cabin wasn't Jacob, it was probably the Man in Black, who had been trapped in there with the circle of ash. Jacob probably used the cabin at some point but did not at the time Ben took Locke there. Ben never made up Jacob, he was real, Ben just lied about his relationship with Jacob.

 

[Heffer Wolf]

The guy in the cabin wasn't Jacob, it was probably the Man in Black, who had been trapped in there with the circle of ash. Jacob probably used the cabin at some point but did not at the time Ben took Locke there. Ben never made up Jacob, he was real, Ben just lied about his relationship with Jacob.

Yeah, but he made up seeing and talking to Jacob, and i'm wondering why Richard was OK with that, especially when Ben would go out and come back with some fake Jacob order that Richard knew was bogus.

And who told Ben Jacob lived in that cabin? Richard? Richard knew he lived in the foot (weird sentence) but it had to of been him. I wonder if any leader of the others has ever seen Jacob (like Charles or Eloise).

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Is there an edit out there that shows only the Island stuff & in order without the flash backs & flash forwards ? The only off island stuff that would be seen is Desmond getting the group to remember the Island

Well, you could go to the site I went to and just start with the episode that starts in September 2004. That would have only island stuff except for the Oceanic 6 stuff.

 

[Calvin]

Finally got around to rewatching the whole series, and man, what a ride. I didn't loathe the last season like most did, in fact I rather liked it. I was maybe a little let down by some of the unresolved stuff, and the afterlife thing, but on second watch, I actually really dug the afterlife flash-sideways angle, a lot. Rather than watching it and wondering what the hell was happening, knowing where it was going actually made it much more poignant, and a lot of the little stuff going on in the season made a lot of sense. They actually foreshadowed that quite a bit, and it was fun picking it up on rewatch. It was really great watching some of these characters getting to experience things that they were tragically denied during their actual lives, and while some people found the afterlife story to be meaningless, I actually found it very powerful and fulfilling since I cared about the characters and wanted them to have some form of happiness. Case in point, Sayid, such a tragic bummer of a figure in season 6, it was great to know that in the afterlife he was able to be around Nadia, even though it was his brother that was married to her. It made how crappy things went for him on the island in the last season much easier to take. I think that was one of the major things that made people dislike the last season. You get a character like Sayid, that people love, and in the last season he's essentially a zombie, so people were bummed. Now, the flash sideways was supposed to give you regular Sayid, but people didn't count it, because they kept thinking the flash sideways stuff was some false alternate reality that was going to be negated. The twist being, that it wasn't an alternate reality, and that it was really just an extension of their lives (into the afterlife). On rewatch, you can appreciate it as being that extension, and knowing it's part of the main continuity, just way way way later, and it's great. It also ties greatly into Desmond's ability to have his consciousness time travel. The reason he knows what's going on is that the electromagnetic stuff that gave him this special power in the first place, when Whidmore bombards him in that little room, he essentially has his mind time travel again (just like the other times), and this time his mind time travels so far into the future, it time travels into his own afterlife.

The real shining beacon in the whole series though has to be Desmond and Penny. Not only was Desmond's time travelling stuff sublime, but they may have had the most emotional on screen romance I've ever seen in a show. That phone call they shared in The Constant gets me weepy eyed more than just about any romance I've seen in movies or tv.

Good job pointing out the Locke turning the wheel first thing, never thought about that. I'll have to spend a little time thinking about the ramifications of that.

I still think Lost had one of the most internally consistent time travel mechanics of any show or movie. You had Desmond and his special consciousness time travelling (which is a viable theory of time travel that many great scientific minds have stated could be very possible, especially if we figure out how to transfer or mess around with the human mind, which we're not far off from). And then you have the excellent physician time travel stuff, with Locke's compass and the man in black's use of time travel to create Locke's specialness. They did a great job sticking to the circular idea of time travel, which is something the Terminator movies couldn't even do after the first one, and Lost did it over a longer period of time and with even more strands to keep up with.

 

[Calvin]

This bit from The Candidate always gets to me. Hurley breaking down just kills me, and then the music is damn tear jerking. Amazing what a few notes on a piano can do.

[YT]kqwrBa-khRk[/YT]

Yeah, no kidding, how awesome is it that Lost got Michael Giacchino, essentially "before he was famous." Do youself a favor and buy some of the soundtrack albums. I'd recommend seasons 1, 4, and 6. 1 contains most of the main themes we've come to know and love. 4 has the best version of Desmond's love theme (played during that famous phone call), and 6 is just a monster of music, 2 discs, and some beautiful stuff, especially the song played during the end of the finale.

Apparently during that concert they did before the finale, Giacchino composed and had performed full orchestrated versions of the music, but sadly I can't seem to find that for purchase of download anywhere. "Devotion" is apparently a fully orchestrated version of Desmond's love theme, god I'd love to have that.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

This bit from The Candidate always gets to me. Hurley breaking down just kills me, and then the music is damn tear jerking. Amazing what a few notes on a piano can do.

[YT]kqwrBa-khRk[/YT]

Definitely, Hurley breaking down still hit me hard the second time around.

Do you think that was really Locke's father? I think it was old smokey. Cooper seemed so much more *****e than usual in that episode.

Yes, I do. And as Sawyer pointed out, Cooper certainly had worse moments than any comment he gave that episode.

The guy in the cabin wasn't Jacob, it was probably the Man in Black, who had been trapped in there with the circle of ash. Jacob probably used the cabin at some point but did not at the time Ben took Locke there. Ben never made up Jacob, he was real, Ben just lied about his relationship with Jacob.

Definitely the guy in the cabin was the Man in Black (incidentally, it was Horace that built the cabin. And I believe it was MIB that impersonated Horace that told Locke he need to find him -meaning Horace's body in the Dharma mass grave pit). But the thing about the ash is troubling. While a lot of people figured out the ash circle was to ward off Smokey, since he was in the cabin, it was meant to keep him confined, no? And later it seemed the ash circle was broken (possibly by Claire?). The thing is, Smokey seemed quite active before this possible release (Christian, Eko's brother, Boone, Dave(?), and plain old Smoke Monster).

 

[Brother Jack]

Yeah, but he made up seeing and talking to Jacob, and i'm wondering why Richard was OK with that, especially when Ben would go out and come back with some fake Jacob order that Richard knew was bogus.

And who told Ben Jacob lived in that cabin? Richard? Richard knew he lived in the foot (weird sentence) but it had to of been him. I wonder if any leader of the others has ever seen Jacob (like Charles or Eloise).

Richard probably didn't know about Ben's supposed relationship with Jacob, or Richard knew about it but somehow didn't know it was fake. Perhaps Jacob just didn't tell him, which would make some sense given his intricate, complex scheming.

Definitely the guy in the cabin was the Man in Black (incidentally, it was Horace that built the cabin. And I believe it was MIB that impersonated Horace that told Locke he need to find him -meaning Horace's body in the Dharma mass grave pit). But the thing about the ash is troubling. While a lot of people figured out the ash circle was to ward off Smokey, since he was in the cabin, it was meant to keep him confined, no? And later it seemed the ash circle was broken (possibly by Claire?). The thing is, Smokey seemed quite active before this possible release (Christian, Eko's brother, Boone, Dave(?), and plain old Smoke Monster).

The simplest answer is that Smokey was confined to the cabin very recent to Ben and Locke's pilgrimage to the cabin. I've actually heard a theory that the MIB also time-traveled with the Losties, so that there were essentially two smoke monsters on the island, one of which was the one trapped in the cabin.

 

[John Locke]

Well the Lost Encyclepedia says that when Ben took Locke to the Cabin they both failed to notice that were was a breach in the ash which meant that MIB could get in and was in fact in the Cabin. Then (I'm just guessing here the Encyclepedia doesn't say this) MIB was able to move the Cabin away from the Ash. Which explains why it moved when Hurley saw it and why it wasn't around the Ash when Locke saw Christian and Claire. So apparently that breach in the circle of ash has been there since we were first saw the Cabin.

 

[YoungE808]

Well the Lost Encyclepedia says that when Ben took Locke to the Cabin they both failed to notice that were was a breach in the ash which meant that MIB could get in and was in fact in the Cabin. Then (I'm just guessing here the Encyclepedia doesn't say this) MIB was able to move the Cabin away from the Ash. Which explains why it moved when Hurley saw it and why it wasn't around the Ash when Locke saw Christian and Claire. So apparently that breach in the circle of ash has been there since we were first saw the Cabin.

I'm mad that I haven't seen a single copy of the Lost Encyclopedia at any book store in the last several months.

Finally got around to rewatching the whole series, and man, what a ride. I didn't loathe the last season like most did, in fact I rather liked it. I was maybe a little let down by some of the unresolved stuff, and the afterlife thing, but on second watch, I actually really dug the afterlife flash-sideways angle, a lot.

Glad you enjoyed it, I rewatched the series about a month or two ago and enjoyed every bit of it. To any and every one, what was the unresolved stuff?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I still think Lost had one of the most internally consistent time travel mechanics of any show or movie. You had Desmond and his special consciousness time travelling (which is a viable theory of time travel that many great scientific minds have stated could be very possible, especially if we figure out how to transfer or mess around with the human mind, which we're not far off from). And then you have the excellent physician time travel stuff, with Locke's compass and the man in black's use of time travel to create Locke's specialness. They did a great job sticking to the circular idea of time travel, which is something the Terminator movies couldn't even do after the first one, and Lost did it over a longer period of time and with even more strands to keep up with.

That's because unlike other movies like Terminator & Back to the Future, you had the butterfly effect where you could alter the present by changing things in the past that could cause paradoxes, like wiping out your own existence (Great Scott!), Lost (although it played with the idea you can change everything, press a restart and had everyone questioning what the flashsideways was) maintained the simple conceit that Daniel originally laid out, "whatever happened happened."

Well the Lost Encyclepedia says that when Ben took Locke to the Cabin they both failed to notice that were was a breach in the ash which meant that MIB could get in and was in fact in the Cabin.

That's also what I considered. Just because we saw part of the ash circle when Ben & Locke first go to the cabin, doesn't mean there was a break somewhere.

Edit: And I also have to get my hands on that Lost Encyclopedia!

To any and every one, what was the unresolved stuff?

There are still things unresolved, but most of the majoe and important points are covered by the end of the show.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Well the Lost Encyclepedia says that when Ben took Locke to the Cabin they both failed to notice that were was a breach in the ash which meant that MIB could get in and was in fact in the Cabin. Then (I'm just guessing here the Encyclepedia doesn't say this) MIB was able to move the Cabin away from the Ash. Which explains why it moved when Hurley saw it and why it wasn't around the Ash when Locke saw Christian and Claire. So apparently that breach in the circle of ash has been there since we were first saw the Cabin.

Does that even count since Ben and Locke didn't know who MIB was at the time? They thought it was Jacob f'n with them in the cabin....

 

[CrimsonDeath]

I always wondered if what happened to Desmond was happening to everyone. Desmond could just remember it.

My same thoughts as well after Flashes Before your Eyes, it was just a downright cool idea that in a way was carried out in a different manner in the show, but for all intents and purposes, the Island made the characters revisit their pasts figuratively and literally.

When I think of this I always go back to the episode where we found out how Locke was paralyzed. When the the nurses are putting Locke in the wheelchair. He reacts as if it is happening again. He seems to have this no please not again element to it.

I think that when there mind flashes back to the island. They just don't remember traveling back to there previous life.

The writers essentially accomplished all that with the Sideways as yet another purpose of that universe. Even a reason given to go back and revisit their own lives, to work out those unresolved issues of the tragedy of their lives and actually get over them. I found that subtle and sublime...

Yes, narratively the show was traveling sporadically through time long before the characters were literally time-traveling. That's part of the reason why it worked; it wasn't as big of a stretch as it may have seemed on the surface.

...and when the writers introduced that element of time travel to a show based on flashbacks and flashforwards, even despite all the foreshadowing beforehand, I could not be more convinced of how genius it all was....

Yeah, but he made up seeing and talking to Jacob, and i'm wondering why Richard was OK with that, especially when Ben would go out and come back with some fake Jacob order that Richard knew was bogus.

And who told Ben Jacob lived in that cabin? Richard? Richard knew he lived in the foot (weird sentence) but it had to of been him. I wonder if any leader of the others has ever seen Jacob (like Charles or Eloise).

...until I think about that damn Cabin.

Because Ben was the leader, Richard, like Jacob or under Jacob's advice, took on a laissez-faire stance on matters. Let Ben choose as he will.

Perhaps Ben was told that the Cabin was a meeting place where Jacob would leave instructions. The ash to protect it against the Monster. Perhaps the Cabin always moved and Ben knew when and where most of the time, that's why he was not surprised when John and the group couldn't find it, and why he was surprised that Hurley saw it some other place for real.

After all, Jacob did not want to be seen, as he could be killed by whoever met him influenced and misled by the Man in Black. Dire consequences to ensue. But Ben wanted to appear in power and thus maintain the illusion that Jacob did meet with him and talked to him.

My initial theory was that Ben could talk and see dead spirits (his mother and Richard's initial interest in that fact), and that Jacob was already dead (Room 27 video claimed "God loves you as He loved Jacob"), with the Smoke Monster thus released and wrecking havoc in the Island. The "spirit" in the Cabin was meant to be Jacob, but probably now some random Whisperer that got caught inside the ash or even Jacob/MIB astrally projecting an image (like Walt) to talk to John. Whatever. We did get dead Jacob talking through Hurley and then directly to the Candidates, which I think was a change in the original story plans.

 

[Calvin]

I'm mad that I haven't seen a single copy of the Lost Encyclopedia at any book store in the last several months.



Glad you enjoyed it, I rewatched the series about a month or two ago and enjoyed every bit of it. To any and every one, what was the unresolved stuff?

Well, I think Walt was one, but you can't really blame the producers for the kid hitting puberty so quickly. But I think what hurt most of the people that weren't happy with the ending is that they were hoping they would get a better idea of what the island was. Going in the second time knowing that they were going to let it remain vague made it easier to appreciate the emotional ending.