Comics Man, if MJ dies then thats it...

[Dragon]

My word, Dragon, it must have taken you an hour to type up that post. You are truly Gwen's biggest fan.
You know what..reading some of the older comics. I really think some people suffer from an idealized perception of Gwen. Half the comics I've read, she's either crying about Peter, or moping about something. Writers are prone to it too, it explains all the recent stuff, like Spider-man Blue.
MJ is more human. And you know what, they did cook some stuff up to bring them together, but even if they did, it's in the past. The question is about how to go forward. Most of the time for the marriage not working, it is directly the writers fault. If they wanted to, they could have made it work. I have recently been reading some of the pre and post clone Saga stuff, the pre-stuff was TERRIBLE. And completly the writers fault. The after stuff, before the reboot, showed what could be done. They had MJ go back to school. And Peter. They had some promise, but no, instead of working with what they had, they had to try to shake things up by "killing" MJ and setting Peter up with other women. Just like they are threatening to do now. *sigh*

Here we go again. If anything, you MJ fans idealize her. You'll point out weaknesses with Gwen- and that's just the character. But with MJ- after more than 30 years mind you- every problem is purely the fault of the writers.

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

Here we go again. If anything, you MJ fans idealize her. You'll point out weaknesses with Gwen- and that's just the character. But with MJ- after more than 30 years mind you- every problem is purely the fault of the writers.

No, not every fault is the writers. 616 MJ can be insensitive, shallow, and lets face it, she was the popular pretty girl. The type who many ( including myself when I was younger ) hated. She can be a cow. ( Peter can be ten times as moody and dramatic as MJ is though )BUT, she grew up. She's not perfect. She doesn't pretend to be. That's the difference between her and Gwen. MJ grew up, Gwen didn't. Partially because she wasn't given the chance. With MJ, though, she could continue to grow, if the writers would let her, instead of trying to kill her off.
The point I was trying to make though is..Gwen's dead. She's been dead for over 30 years!! My parents were teenagers when she died! It's time to leave her in the ground and work with what they've got.

 

[Spider - Man]

Yes. It's called prejudice. Way to go.



I'd doubt your being pounded senseless would be enjoyable for you (Or... would it? )

Hey guy, just wanted to point out that forming opinions based on general impressions without actually pointing to any specific thing is NOT being prejudiced. People form opinions based on impressions of other people every day - some good, some bad. If I talk to someone and don't get to see them do a good deed but they "seem" sweet and I made the statement "My impression of her is that she is very nice." Am I being prejudiced? I guess so according to you!

And yes, it would be an honor, Mr. Dragon sir, to be pounded senseless by a person of your obvious talent. To boldly claim to be able to do somehing like this to someone on a comic book message board whom you've never even met must indicate the assurance in yourself that you are truly one of the deadliest people on earth. But what else could one expect? 33 years practicing Kung Fu! Longer even than the little Dragon himself practiced! As I said, it would be an honor, sir, to learn valuable lessons from your deadly hands, from the one TRUE Dragon! And though I have studied under a sifu who in turn studied directly under Yip Man before he died, the lessons he provided would pale in comparison to the insight I would gain from the pounding that you would administer. If you were ever in, say, the Chapel Hill area of North Caroline and happened to stop at, say, the Academy of Mixed martial Arts at 6618 Farington Road some Saturday, I would consider it one of the great honors of my life if you would please teach me a good lesson and pound me senseless. I know that my Navy boxing, Muy Tai, Wing Chun, and Brazilian Jui Jitsu would be no match for your lethal Kung Fu skills but please do me the one small favor of leaving me conscious at the end of what I'm sure would be a very short bout in light of your deadly abilities so that I might thank you for beating some sense out of me! Thank you, sir!


To other posters:

Comicboy - No, it is not possible that Spidey's villains have gotten stronger over the years. It is merely a case of Spidey was stronger when he was with Gwen. case closed.

gliderpilotgirl - Do not try to point out Gwen's shortcomings. She has none.

In fact, EVERYONE! Please do not provoke Dragon by stating your own opinion, especially if it is something negative about Gwen! he will not hesitate to do research and explain to you in nauseating detail how your opinion is meaningless. He will bludgeon you with thick sarcasm about his opinion until you are forced to accept it as fact. He is THE authority on Spider-man and gwen Stacy. Even the WRITERS of Spider-man comics don't understand these characters the way he does, so how could any of US hope to! Please, please, save yourselves the humiliation of being beaten senseless by his long-winded diatribes. Nothing that any of you think matters! In fact, we should change the name of these boards to Dragonhype! And only Dragon can post because he is the only one who knows what he is talking about, which comes across clearly in his condescending lectures. Perhaps eventually with no one else to disagree with, he will begin arguing with himself and threaten to kick his own ass!

Now I will go and await my verbal or physical pounding, whichever comes first.

 

[Kevin]

Hey guy, just wanted to point out that forming opinions based on general impressions without actually pointing to any specific thing is NOT being prejudiced. People form opinions based on impressions of other people every day - some good, some bad. If I talk to someone and don't get to see them do a good deed but they "seem" sweet and I made the statement "My impression of her is that she is very nice." Am I being prejudiced? I guess so according to you!

And yes, it would be an honor, Mr. Dragon sir, to be pounded senseless by a person of your obvious talent. To boldly claim to be able to do somehing like this to someone on a comic book message board whom you've never even met must indicate the assurance in yourself that you are truly one of the deadliest people on earth. But what else could one expect? 33 years practicing Kung Fu! Longer even than the little Dragon himself practiced! As I said, it would be an honor, sir, to learn valuable lessons from your deadly hands, from the one TRUE Dragon! And though I have studied under a sifu who in turn studied directly under Yip Man before he died, the lessons he provided would pale in comparison to the insight I would gain from the pounding that you would administer. If you were ever in, say, the Chapel Hill area of North Caroline and happened to stop at, say, the Academy of Mixed martial Arts at 6618 Farington Road some Saturday, I would consider it one of the great honors of my life if you would please teach me a good lesson and pound me senseless. I know that my Navy boxing, Muy Tai, Wing Chun, and Brazilian Jui Jitsu would be no match for your lethal Kung Fu skills but please do me the one small favor of leaving me conscious at the end of what I'm sure would be a very short bout in light of your deadly abilities so that I might thank you for beating some sense out of me! Thank you, sir!


To other posters:

Comicboy - No, it is not possible that Spidey's villains have gotten stronger over the years. It is merely a case of Spidey was stronger when he was with Gwen. case closed. r u joking? me not so smart sometimes.

gliderpilotgirl - Do not try to point out Gwen's shortcomings. She has none.

In fact, EVERYONE! Please do not provoke Dragon by stating your own opinion, especially if it is something negative about Gwen! he will not hesitate to do research and explain to you in nauseating detail how your opinion is meaningless. He will bludgeon you with thick sarcasm about his opinion until you are forced to accept it as fact. He is THE authority on Spider-man and gwen Stacy. Even the WRITERS of Spider-man comics don't understand these characters the way he does, so how could any of US hope to! Please, please, save yourselves the humiliation of being beaten senseless by his long-winded diatribes. Nothing that any of you think matters! In fact, we should change the name of these boards to Dragonhype! And only Dragon can post because he is the only one who knows what he is talking about, which comes across clearly in his condescending lectures. Perhaps eventually with no one else to disagree with, he will begin arguing with himself and threaten to kick his own ass!

Now I will go and await my verbal or physical pounding, whichever comes first.

I like you, spider - man. Ur kool in my book.

 

[Venomfan]

gliderpilotgirl, your great at defending MJ. if MJ dies il be pissed, id rather have clark and lois break up, i think. actually gliderpilotgirl uv given me an idea, they should try having a woman write.

 

[Kevin]

^ that would be different. I'd like to see a woman writer on spidey.

 

[Dragon]

Hey guy, just wanted to point out that forming opinions based on general impressions without actually pointing to any specific thing is NOT being prejudiced. People form opinions based on impressions of other people every day - some good, some bad. If I talk to someone and don't get to see them do a good deed but they "seem" sweet and I made the statement "My impression of her is that she is very nice." Am I being prejudiced? I guess so according to you!

You said it yourself- you were forming opinions on Gwen based on her appearance, not based on her character. That's prejudice. And yes, you can be prejudiced in a "nice" way. Like the assumption that all Black men are good at basketball, or all Asians know martial arts. Even your example of some girl seeming "sweet" is wrong. She could be a thief or con woman suckering you.

And yes, it would be an honor, Mr. Dragon sir, to be pounded senseless by a person of your obvious talent. To boldly claim to be able to do somehing like this to someone on a comic book message board whom you've never even met must indicate the assurance in yourself that you are truly one of the deadliest people on earth. But what else could one expect?

One could expect you to lighten up and have a sense of humor, since again- this is a discussion ABOUT COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS.

33 years practicing Kung Fu! Longer even than the little Dragon himself practiced! As I said, it would be an honor, sir, to learn valuable lessons from your deadly hands, from the one TRUE Dragon! And though I have studied under a sifu who in turn studied directly under Yip Man before he died, the lessons he provided would pale in comparison to the insight I would gain from the pounding that you would administer. If you were ever in, say, the Chapel Hill area of North Caroline and happened to stop at, say, the Academy of Mixed martial Arts at 6618 Farington Road some Saturday, I would consider it one of the great honors of my life if you would please teach me a good lesson and pound me senseless. I know that my Navy boxing, Muy Tai, Wing Chun, and Brazilian Jui Jitsu would be no match for your lethal Kung Fu skills but please do me the one small favor of leaving me conscious at the end of what I'm sure would be a very short bout in light of your deadly abilities so that I might thank you for beating some sense out of me! Thank you, sir!

Wow. So you're turning a debate about comic book characters into an actual challenge to fight? Did I say you need to lighten up? Maybe its time to up the dosage on your meds. If you actually need to qualify yourself by running down the lineage of your instruction, you obviously don't get what martial arts is about. And I never claimed my skills to be lethal or anything else.
HOWEVER- if you feel the need to prove your abilities in actual combat to make you feel better about a discussion of comic characters, I'll be happy to oblige you. Just PM me and we can see about setting up a time and place.

To other posters:

Comicboy - No, it is not possible that Spidey's villains have gotten stronger over the years. It is merely a case of Spidey was stronger when he was with Gwen. case closed.

gliderpilotgirl - Do not try to point out Gwen's shortcomings. She has none.

In fact, EVERYONE! Please do not provoke Dragon by stating your own opinion, especially if it is something negative about Gwen! he will not hesitate to do research and explain to you in nauseating detail how your opinion is meaningless. He will bludgeon you with thick sarcasm about his opinion until you are forced to accept it as fact. He is THE authority on Spider-man and gwen Stacy. Even the WRITERS of Spider-man comics don't understand these characters the way he does, so how could any of US hope to! Please, please, save yourselves the humiliation of being beaten senseless by his long-winded diatribes. Nothing that any of you think matters! In fact, we should change the name of these boards to Dragonhype! And only Dragon can post because he is the only one who knows what he is talking about, which comes across clearly in his condescending lectures. Perhaps eventually with no one else to disagree with, he will begin arguing with himself and threaten to kick his own ass!

Now I will go and await my verbal or physical pounding, whichever comes first.

All of this merely continues to prove what a sad little man you are. As, your joining in this discussion was your own attack on someone else giving their opinion (Citizen Kaine, I believe).

 

[Dragon]

No, not every fault is the writers. 616 MJ can be insensitive, shallow, and lets face it, she was the popular pretty girl. The type who many ( including myself when I was younger ) hated. She can be a cow. ( Peter can be ten times as moody and dramatic as MJ is though )BUT, she grew up. She's not perfect. She doesn't pretend to be. That's the difference between her and Gwen. MJ grew up, Gwen didn't. Partially because she wasn't given the chance. With MJ, though, she could continue to grow, if the writers would let her, instead of trying to kill her off.
The point I was trying to make though is..Gwen's dead. She's been dead for over 30 years!! My parents were teenagers when she died! It's time to leave her in the ground and work with what they've got.

At this point, we don't know what Marvel is going to do. They may not kill MJ off. But maybe they simply feel that what they've got isn't enough. That even taken as far as she can go, MJ just isn't the character they want to continue to develop. It isn't merely a point of her "growing up", in my opinion.
It's what can be done with her. There just aren't that many stories to tell with a model/actress. The stalker thing has been done to death.

Just as you're saying that Marvel should move on from Gwen, don't you think that if MJ is killed off all the MJ fans should be prepared to do the same?

My problem with killing off MJ is that I know its for the wrong reasons and that there won't be any actual improvement in the quality of the comics, as long as the same crews are on the books. But if someone was actually going to take Spidey to the next level after killing off MJ (Maybe Jeph Loeb will), then I have no problem with it.

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

At this point, we don't know what Marvel is going to do. They may not kill MJ off. But maybe they simply feel that what they've got isn't enough. That even taken as far as she can go, MJ just isn't the character they want to continue to develop. It isn't merely a point of her "growing up", in my opinion.
It's what can be done with her. There just aren't that many stories to tell with a model/actress. The stalker thing has been done to death.

Well, then have her do something else for a career. Plenty of people change jobs mid-life. Let them have kids!! there are billions of story ideas there. And I still firmly hold to the fact that Gwen would have run out of stories too. There would only be so many times she could be accused of flirting with her partner ( assuming we are running with this idea you've mentioned about her being a cop, though I think she would have been too naive for that job. ) or she could worry about Peter etc.

Just as you're saying that Marvel should move on from Gwen, don't you think that if MJ is killed off all the MJ fans should be prepared to do the same?
My problem with killing off MJ is that I know its for the wrong reasons and that there won't be any actual improvement in the quality of the comics, as long as the same crews are on the books. But if someone was actually going to take Spidey to the next level after killing off MJ (Maybe Jeph Loeb will), then I have no problem with it.

I suppose, if things are fair, we should too. ( move on ) But you and I are agreed on the killing would be for the wrong reasons..hence why some of us would not let go. It is being done as another shock-ending, and because some of the writers are lazy/prejudiced against MJ. They don't like her character. They would not be doing it for better storytelling. I agree..if there was a good point, and the stories were better, in time we might accept it. But not like this.

 

[Spider - Man]

You said it yourself- you were forming opinions on Gwen based on her appearance, not based on her character. That's prejudice. And yes, you can be prejudiced in a "nice" way. Like the assumption that all Black men are good at basketball, or all Asians know martial arts. Even your example of some girl seeming "sweet" is wrong. She could be a thief or con woman suckering you.



One could expect you to lighten up and have a sense of humor, since again- this is a discussion ABOUT COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS.



Wow. So you're turning a debate about comic book characters into an actual challenge to fight? Did I say you need to lighten up? Maybe its time to up the dosage on your meds. If you actually need to qualify yourself by running down the lineage of your instruction, you obviously don't get what martial arts is about. And I never claimed my skills to be lethal or anything else.
HOWEVER- if you feel the need to prove your abilities in actual combat to make you feel better about a discussion of comic characters, I'll be happy to oblige you. Just PM me and we can see about setting up a time and place.



All of this merely continues to prove what a sad little man you are. As, your joining in this discussion was your own attack on someone else giving their opinion (Citizen Kaine, I believe).

No, an assumption is an assumption. An impression is an impression. I could have an impression of someone that could be wrong. I didn't judge Gwen solely on her appearance but you choose to hear what you want to hear.

You're probably the only one who couldn't see that my post was nothing but humorous! But you'd need a sense of humor yourself to notice that!

I'm not turning this into anything. It's hilarious how you wonder if I would enjoy getting "pounded senseless" by you (first mention of anything physical) then turn it around and say I am the one trying to turn it into a challenge to fight. I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone but myself, which I do regularly. I already stated publicly a place and time where I'll be if you feel that you need to back up YOUR CLAIM. You're the one who indicated you would "pound me senseless". Everyone on here can see that except apparently for you. So don't try to turn it around like I'M the one who brought it up.

And if you aren't the pot calling the kettle black, throwing out your definition of prejudice then calling me a "sad (I'm VERY happy) little (hardly!) man".

If you actually READ my entrance into this thread, you'd have seen it consisted of 1)asking a question and 2)stating MY OPINION! NOT attacking ANYONE! Get a clue!

 

[Dragon]

Well, then have her do something else for a career. Plenty of people change jobs mid-life. Let them have kids!! there are billions of story ideas there. And I still firmly hold to the fact that Gwen would have run out of stories too. There would only be so many times she could be accused of flirting with her partner ( assuming we are running with this idea you've mentioned about her being a cop, though I think she would have been too naive for that job. ) or she could worry about Peter etc.

Sure. You could change MJ's career, but that means altering her character. She was established as someone whose passion was performing. What are they going to do, make her a SHIELD agent? and their having kids wouldn't be the answer anymore than killing MJ in this situation. The characters need to be interesting on their own, not hiding behind a baby, which iwll also get boring. I've mentioned before, I think a possible new career for MJ might be psychiatry. That could generate some interesting stories.

As for Gwen, I again would love to see where she was ever characterized as being naive? She was likely more streetwise than Peter, for example having to explain to Peter what a drug flashback is. Regarding stories- I said things like the possibility of cheating with her partner was at the bottom of the list. Gwen would mostly be in action- taking art in her own investigations or cases that meshed with what Peter was doing. She'd always be a part of the action and stories could be generated from her job, from what Peter was doing and things from her father's past and whatever happened with her mother. She could have her own title with all of that potential. Gwen & Peter could also have kids. But not as a crutch, to make them more interesting. As merely the next step in their evolution as people and a couple.

I suppose, if things are fair, we should too. ( move on ) But you and I are agreed on the killing would be for the wrong reasons..hence why some of us would not let go. It is being done as another shock-ending, and because some of the writers are lazy/prejudiced against MJ. They don't like her character. They would not be doing it for better storytelling. I agree..if there was a good point, and the stories were better, in time we might accept it. But not like this.

You understand that the reasons you listed above are the only reasons Gwen was killed off, right? Look, right now I don't even buy Spidey comics, as they're simply too poorly made to sustain my interest. Predictable outcomes to storylines that run too long. And little things like the events with May in Sensational aren't enough to renew my interest in buying them. Marvel just doesn't see how great Spider-Man could be anymore. They haven't for a long time. I'm waiting for someone to do something great with this character again.

Oh, and BTW- since policy is that we actually fist fight with people we don't agree with- I'll see you in the center ring young lady

 

[Dragon]

I didn't notice this response earlier. So let's continue:

No, an assumption is an assumption. An impression is an impression. I could have an impression of someone that could be wrong. I didn't judge Gwen solely on her appearance but you choose to hear what you want to hear.

Your Words:

As to the spoiled part, Gwen is an only child to a single elderly father. She is always dressed like Barbie (of the period). Do you think she might be a bit of a princess? Maybe a little spoiled? Did she never strike you as the kind of person who would unquestioningly choose her father's side over Peter's any day? She did to me.

You're speaking of nothing other than Gwen's appearance. What she "seems" like. Nothing about how she actually behaved. And one further thing about Gwen being a "Daddy's Girl". Under the influence of the Brainwasher machine Capt. Stacy accused Peter of evey evil thing under the sun. Did Gwen stop loving Peter? No. So that buries that argument.

I'm not turning this into anything. It's hilarious how you wonder if I would enjoy getting "pounded senseless" by you (first mention of anything physical) then turn it around and say I am the one trying to turn it into a challenge to fight.

When I said "pounded senseless" which was in THE PAST TENSE I couldn't have been speaking literally since we've never fought. Obviously I was speaking in figurative terms and joking. You were the one suggesting we actually fight.

I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone but myself, which I do regularly. I already stated publicly a place and time where I'll be if you feel that you need to back up YOUR CLAIM.

My claim of what? That I've practiced martial arts? I never said I could beat you in a fight or had any desire to actually fight you. But I certainly will fight you. People like you who need to use martial arts as a way of proving themselves a man are why its a joke. And since you're laying down the gauntlet we should meet in a neutral area. But like I said, this should be handled in PMs, not on this board which is for discussion of comics. So with that, I've said the last thing about fighting here. Contact me by PM or e-mail to go any further on that matter.

You're the one who indicated you would "pound me senseless". Everyone on here can see that except apparently for you. So don't try to turn it around like I'M the one who brought it up.

Quote me where I said I WOULD POUND YOU SENSELESS. Again- I said pounded you senseless from the perspective of this debate.

And if you aren't the pot calling the kettle black, throwing out your definition of prejudice then calling me a "sad (I'm VERY happy) little (hardly!) man".

Uh, no. I'm describing you as such based on your actions, not your appearance.

If you actually READ my entrance into this thread, you'd have seen it consisted of 1)asking a question and 2)stating MY OPINION! NOT attacking ANYONE! Get a clue!

Your statements were agressive and absolute, as though Citizen Kaine were wrong for having an opinion that differed from yours. Anyway this is pointless since you can't engage in a debate without taking it to a ridiculous level. You want to talk comics, we'll do it here. Anything else, we'll handle via other channels.

 

[The Joker]

Dragon, when you're done laying down quality ownage, would please clear out a little room in your PM box please??

 

[Dragon]

Dragon, when you're done laying down quality ownage, would please clear out a little room in your PM box please??

Been done Ock. And I'll have that pic to you in a few minutes

 

[The Joker]

Been done Ock. And I'll have that pic to you in a few minutes

Ah, thanks a mil dude

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

new career for MJ might be psychiatry. That could generate some interesting stories.

We are agreed..hence what I said about right before the reboot. She was in school if I recall correctly for that.
With her life story, and her understanding why she did what she did with hiding her personality, as well as her experiences, would make her a compassionate, excellent person for something like that.

As for Gwen, I again would love to see where she was ever characterized as being naive?

go read ASM 91 again. She didn't see through Bullitt.

She was likely more streetwise than Peter, for example having to explain to Peter what a drug flashback is. Regarding stories- I said things like the possibility of cheating with her partner was at the bottom of the list. Gwen would mostly be in action- taking art in her own investigations or cases that meshed with what Peter was doing. She'd always be a part of the action and stories could be generated from her job, from what Peter was doing and things from her father's past and whatever happened with her mother. She could have her own title with all of that potential. Gwen & Peter could also have kids. But not as a crutch, to make them more interesting. As merely the next step in their evolution as people and a couple.

Ok..So Peter and Gwen can have kids, and it's the next step in their evolution..but you shot down my suggestion of Peter and MJ having kids. what the heck? Peter and MJ are married!! Kids ARE the natural next step!
Peter and Gwen didn't even get that far!! We don't know if their marriage would have worked when the dual ID would have come out. Screw that What if..the ASM's where she was alive don't support that.
and...ahem..Gwen already HAS kids.. ( sorry, I couldn't resist )

hmm..a fistfight? ugh..sounds messy..and you'd hit a GIRL? Shame on you..I'll have to call my 6 ft 250 lb military husband to pinch hit for me.

 

[Spider - Man]

I didn't notice this response earlier. So let's continue:
My claim of what?

That you would “pound me senseless”. See below.

Quote me where I said I WOULD POUND YOU SENSELESS. Again- I said pounded you senseless from the perspective of this debate.
When I said "pounded senseless" which was in THE PAST TENSE I couldn't have been speaking literally since we've never fought. Obviously I was speaking in figurative terms and joking. You were the one suggesting we actually fight.

Quote:
Anyway, you've sucked the fun out of this discussion (much as you probably do a room just by walking into it! Just a general impression! t: - sorry, reaction to all the acculated sarcasm!).


Your words:
I know. I'd doubt your being pounded senseless would be enjoyable for you (Or... would it? )

Your remark doesn’t sound like it’s coming from the “perspective of this debate”. It doesn’t sound like a joke. It sounds like you’re in fact stating that if “you walked into a room” (that I was in, presumably) that you would "pound me senseless" and "I wouldn't enjoy it". It's funny, you make your remark and then when I type a reply (a HUMOROUS one, I might add) you resort to your “What?! You actually want to fight?!!” attitude. There's a big difference between me responding to an implied threat by telling you where you can find me if you're really interested and me saying "I'm gonna kick your ass!" And you see the little smiley face after my comment? THAT means “I’m joking”. I see no smiley face with your remark, only an eek face which does not indicate a joke.

Uh, no. I'm describing you as such based on your actions, not your appearance.

So ok, from my “actions” you deduce that I’m sad and little. Whatever you say, Sherlock. What I think is sad is a grown man who is obviously as obsessed with a dead fictional character as you are, but I digress.

Here’s my ‘entrance’ comment into this whole mess:
First of all, how does Gwen outshine MJ in ANY way? If you go back a read ASM #31 thru #121 and tell me where she was ever portrayed as anything more than angst-ridden window-dressing. She had all the personality of a peach-pit. I know I'd rather go out on the town with MJ ANY day than with Gwen. 'Course I like to have a good time when I go out so go figure.

And now your comment about it:

Your statements were agressive and absolute, as though Citizen Kaine were wrong for having an opinion that differed from yours.

The only person on here who acts like everyone is wrong for having an opinion that differs from their own is YOU. And where actually is my comment aggressive? I ask a question. Then I state my opinion. Is it absolute? Maybe, but so what? Where in any of YOUR looooong threads do you ever leave any room for compromise? But I guess that’s ok for you, just no one else, right? Dream on.

Anyway this is pointless since you can't engage in a debate without taking it to a ridiculous level. You want to talk comics, we'll do it here. Anything else, we'll handle via other channels.

And again you go with the “YOU can’t engage..blahblahblah. Yup, it was me. All my fault. You never made a cocky statement which provoked a friendly (and again, HUMOROUS) invitation from me. You never made the comment I have listed above. It’s just in the imagination of anyone who reads it. You were just an innocent bystander.

You’re right about one thing though: talking to you is pointless and I’m thru with it. You’re like the person to whom you tell a joke, then have to explain the punchline to...more than once. I’ve answered your latest list of stuff and now I’m going to ignore you, which I should have been doing all along. I take martial arts to become a better fighter, not to find some spiritual enlightenment that people like you claim that if you’re NOT doing it for then it’s just to prove how much of a man you are or some similar bull****. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I never said I wanted to fight you. You made an inflammatory statement, I humorously responded telling you where I was which anyone reading could see was done to be funny (for someone who likes to slap on the sarcasm nice and thick, it’s funny how you have difficulty recognizing it when it’s coming your way!), and you start with the whole passive/aggressive “you actually wanna FIGHT?!!” thing. But whatever. I fight at least every other week so one more or less ain’t really gonna make much of a difference to me. You made a cocky statement. I let you know where I was and what you were welcome to do. I wouldn’t cross the street to piss down your throat if your belly was on fire, much less travel ANYWHERE out of my way to mix it up with you or anyone else unless there was money in it or I would benefit in some way that I’m not already, i.e., improving my skills. I have no reason to believe that I would.

So I’ve said my piece. No PMs from me. Everything I needed to say has already been said on the board.

 

[Dragon]

go read ASM 91 again. She didn't see through Bullitt.

That wasn't naive. That was her being blinded by rage. She wanted her father's death avenged. She made a mistake, which should be a good thing, since most Gwen detractors say she was "too perfect", never making mistakes. And if anything, the drive for justice she showed in that story suggests even more strongly that she'd likely become a cop.

Ok..So Peter and Gwen can have kids, and it's the next step in their evolution..but you shot down my suggestion of Peter and MJ having kids. what the heck? Peter and MJ are married!! Kids ARE the natural next step!

I said that they shouldn't use a baby as a crutch for making the stories more interesting, which is what they'd be doing if they gave Peter & MJ a baby at this point. The characters should be interesting on their own merit. If the writing had already been good and the characters working, then adding a baby would be fine, whoever Peter was with.

Peter and Gwen didn't even get that far!! We don't know if their marriage would have worked when the dual ID would have come out. Screw that What if..the ASM's where she was alive don't support that.
and...ahem..Gwen already HAS kids.. ( sorry, I couldn't resist )

That's right. Rub it in

The ASMs don't support Gwen dealing with the dual ID? Sure they do. In ASM #95 Gwen says that she wasn't sure about Spidey's guilt after seeing him save the official and his son. And ironically, MJ is the one that proves Gwen could have dealt with Peter's secret. As I'd mentioned, when MJ reveals that she knows in ASMs #257 & 258, she's a wreck. But eventually she calms down about it. Now Gwen, having been shown to keep her cool in more than one tense situation, and loving Peter, would likely deal with it even more easily. Not immediatley of course. I'd have loved to see Peter and Gwen go through a very rough period after her learning his secret. But eventually they would reconcile.

hmm..a fistfight? ugh..sounds messy..and you'd hit a GIRL? Shame on you..I'll have to call my 6 ft 250 lb military husband to pinch hit for me.

Just kidding hon. I wouldn't harm a lovely hair on your head, although I'm sure hubby has that covered. Just spoofing over how crazy some people get over these discussions.

 

[Dragon]

Is it impossible for the villians he's faced before to not have gotten stronger? Are we taking into accont that every writer wants to build suspence for the hero to tell a better story?

Just as Spidey's villains may get stronger, so to would Peter, if not getting actually physically stronger, become more effective in the use of his powers and a better strategist.

I'd like to think that I'm a writer so, from that point of view, I have to tell a story in a certain way. MJ is Peter's wife. With that on my mind, I have to plan what would go on in the hero's, this case being peter's, head. CONFLICT! It told a better story when he couldn't beat the villian so easily, (He never could by the way) so when he's just beaten, he needs motivation to bring him back up to beat the villian. In many cases that motivation was not wanting to leave his wife a widow. By the way, I think this is why people say that Peter couldn't go on, wouldn't continue being spider-man without MJ.

But the problem is that Peter usually doesn't win at all. Sure- there's the very rare victory, but for the most part he gets his ass handed to him with no hope of victory unless there's some kind of intervention. Luck, or a third party.

I mean let's look at some battles he's had in recent years-

Captain America kicked his ass.

Titanium Man took a dive.

The Other escaped him.

Morlun killed him.

He couldn't beat Tracer.

He couldn't beat the Hydravengers.

I forgot what happened against the Molten man rip-off guy.

He couldn't beat the Grey Goblin.

He got his ass kicked by Ezekiel.

He only survived the Loki thing because of Loki.

He actually beat Digger & Shathra (Yay!!!)

What about MKSM & SSM?

Vulture & Electro beat him.

He was made a fool of by the Goblin.

I didn't read the end of the Feral storyline so I don't know if he defeated anyone there. But the fact that they had Black Cat decisively deafeat the Lizard, a character Spidey has always struggled with is a pretty hard kick in the cajones.

That's over the last like 3 years. But his losing streak goes back much farther.

Again- Peter should always be tested, take his lumps. But Marvel's policy for generating suspense has been for too long if he'll win at all. Spidey's just a punching bag.

 

[Spider - Man]

Peter'll never fall in love again after this. I mean its sort of like a "fool me once, fool me twice" situation. His first true love died (gwen) now if they decide to kill his second TRUE love then that it. I dont see peter coming back from this. Mary Jane is like his driving force to stay alive. I think thats how he managed to dig his way out of kraven's grave. If MJ dies, there can never be another woman for peter like her. I mean, they've been together since the 70's for god's sake! I dunno, what do y'all think?

Back to the point of this thread: The bottom line is Marvel can do whatever they want. They can kill off Mj, make her forget Pete is Spidey, they can have her change preferences and run off with Felicia if the're so inclined. And there's nothing you, me, or anyone else no matter how they rant, can do about it.

Everyone has there opinions and preferences and opinions which amount to exactly zip because even though marvel dod the whole "MJ's dead" thing a few years ago, they can do it again or anything else they like.

They could have Pete get up with Liz Allen and in 20 years, SHE could be the love of his life. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[shinlyle]

Okay, I've been hanging back and observing for awhile in this thread, and I figured I'd let my opinion be made known. Note, it is an opinion, not fact.

I prefer MJ.

I do however, love Gwen as well. At first, I thought Gwen was this idealized perfect girl. Then I read the older comics...and I thought she was a total crybaby. Then I read some more of the old comics and realizes something....She and Peter were meant to be. No doubt about it. They were meant to be together. Abyone who hates a married Peter Parker because he is married, yet claims to love Gwen needs to hush. He would hav ebeen married to Gwen if he had not married MJ. In fact, there are times when I'm sure Peter wonders what his life would have been like had he married Gwen (as evidenced by House of M).

Still I prefer MJ. Their relationship is less conventional, and more real. They have their problems, they wer erushed together and abrubtly married, and here we are, but they work through it. A marriage without some hard times and turmoil is no marriage at all, as any married person will tell you. Personally, I like the Spider-Man: Blue take on the whole thing...with Gwen's death being MJ's wake-up call. Without it, she would have simply kept partying until she was the lonely 40 year-old cat-lady with a guy sleeping on her couch.

Gwen, on the other hand, would have been ideal for Peter right of the bat. She didn't care about what was going on in the rest of the world, so long as she had Peter. You can see that in any issue with her in it. She had her own goals and choices in mind, and everything was taken away by a madman.

Personally, I just think this whole "killing off MJ" thing would result in a cheapening of Gwen's death (which was already cheapened by Sins Past). Peter learned that lesson already, and there isn't much use in him learning it again. As for divorcing him, that would just be too depressing to read about. First, they have to make MJ a character we despise, and then they have to make Peter and MJ simply not want to be with one another anymore...after about 20 years or so of proving otherwise.

I just think that Peter and Mj should stay together. Not everyone feels that way, and that's cool. It's just my opinion.

 

[MaxCarnage]

Back to the point of this thread: The bottom line is Marvel can do whatever they want. They can kill off Mj, make her forget Pete is Spidey, they can have her change preferences and run off with Felicia if the're so inclined. And there's nothing you, me, or anyone else no matter how they rant, can do about it.

Everyone has there opinions and preferences and opinions which amount to exactly zip because even though marvel dod the whole "MJ's dead" thing a few years ago, they can do it again or anything else they like.

They could have Pete get up with Liz Allen and in 20 years, SHE could be the love of his life. We'll just have to wait and see.

Well, if that's your attitude, then why even have a message board to discuss these things? If we can't talk about or complain about it, then what's the the point?

 

[Kevin]

Okay, I've been hanging back and observing for awhile in this thread, and I figured I'd let my opinion be made known. Note, it is an opinion, not fact.

I prefer MJ.

I do however, love Gwen as well. At first, I thought Gwen was this idealized perfect girl. Then I read the older comics...and I thought she was a total crybaby. Then I read some more of the old comics and realizes something....She and Peter were meant to be. No doubt about it. They were meant to be together. Abyone who hates a married Peter Parker because he is married, yet claims to love Gwen needs to hush. He would hav ebeen married to Gwen if he had not married MJ. In fact, there are times when I'm sure Peter wonders what his life would have been like had he married Gwen (as evidenced by House of M).

Still I prefer MJ. Their relationship is less conventional, and more real. They have their problems, they wer erushed together and abrubtly married, and here we are, but they work through it. A marriage without some hard times and turmoil is no marriage at all, as any married person will tell you. Personally, I like the Spider-Man: Blue take on the whole thing...with Gwen's death being MJ's wake-up call. Without it, she would have simply kept partying until she was the lonely 40 year-old cat-lady with a guy sleeping on her couch.

Gwen, on the other hand, would have been ideal for Peter right of the bat. She didn't care about what was going on in the rest of the world, so long as she had Peter. You can see that in any issue with her in it. She had her own goals and choices in mind, and everything was taken away by a madman.

Personally, I just think this whole "killing off MJ" thing would result in a cheapening of Gwen's death (which was already cheapened by Sins Past). Peter learned that lesson already, and there isn't much use in him learning it again. As for divorcing him, that would just be too depressing to read about. First, they have to make MJ a character we despise, and then they have to make Peter and MJ simply not want to be with one another anymore...after about 20 years or so of proving otherwise.

I just think that Peter and Mj should stay together. Not everyone feels that way, and that's cool. It's just my opinion.

That's your opinion, and I respect it. That is all.

 

[Spider - Man]

Well, if that's your attitude, then why even have a message board to discuss these things? If we can't talk about or complain about it, then what's the the point?

That's not my attitude, it's just a fact. I was just going back and answering the first post where he said "Peter will ever fall in love again." In reality, should they kill off MJ? No. Would Peter ever find someone else he loves as much? Probably not. BUT the fact is, Marvel can do whatever they want to do, no matter how rediculous it seems to us. Of course we can discuss it, complain about it, whatever. It just won't do any good as far as influencing Marvel to do what makes sense.

Itruly believe that the egos at Marvel no longer care a bit for what the fans want. I think Civil War alone proves that.

 

[kguillou]

Jesus, look what I've started...lol