Xeno
That's America's ass!
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Dude ! Please vote and square things up for Goddess of Death !
Done!
Dude ! Please vote and square things up for Goddess of Death !
Done!
As for this. My man Thanos takes it. Feats wise, its a toss up, but Thanos has a much bigger threat aura. If these two met to duke it out in a movie, I see very little chance the writers decide Hela. Thanos is also the greatest threat of the MCU. He wins this one.
She had crazy regen, but her powers weren't exactly exotic or OP, she just had a big OP aura, extreme durability against ONE (at the time) Powerhouse tiered character (based on our list).
Durability goes to Thanos. They both have a durability feat against Thor's lightning, which is hard to ignore. Hela was sidelined for about a minute or two before likely regenning off screen. If she no sold Thor's lightning, why didn't she come right back up to the bifrost moments later? What was she doing for those two minutes? She was sidelined, albeit, very very briefly, and not enough to make a difference. Thanos got right back up, and attacked Thor.
In terms of skill, and strength, he dropped Hulk in 12 punches, and seemingly wrecked Thor before the movie even started. The Russos have said Thanos is undefeated hand to hand combat. If someone says Thanos ISN'T superior to Hela, they are damn near equal. Hela does not have any edge in skill, she does in speed, but I'm sure Thanos has beaten faster opponents than her.
Hela has defeated Thor, the ONLY powerhouse tier character she faced in that movie. Everyone else she engaged in was atleast two tiers below her.
Thanos KO'd the physically strongest powerhouse of that tier. He beat up Thor off screen, leaving him looking just as bad or worse than Hela had him look. 5 minutes into the movie, he's already beaten one more powerhouse tiered character than Hela has.
You seem to be talking about plot armour and character popularity here. If we started to factor that kind of thing into our fights on here we'd have to conclude that Dr Strange is above Dormammu, the Fantastic Four are above Galactus, Spider-Man's above Venom etc.
I can imagine Marvel writers wanting Thanos to beat a more powerful character like Hela, Ego or Dormammu. I can also imagine Marvel writers wanting Thanos to lose to a less powerful character like Doctor Doom, Captain Marvel, or the Guardians of the Galaxy. When they want those outcomes they'll use luck, mistakes and throwing in/taking away variables like weapons, allies, injuries and trickery to make that happen believably.
I don't think that's relevant here though. The outcome the writers choose for story purposes and the most likely outcome of a fair fight are two different things.
I think the key point is that Hela has a ridiculous healing factor that let her shrug off stab wounds in seconds whereas MCU Thanos has no known healing factor.
The problem with that comparison is that Thor's lightning varies. Thor called the lightning blast that briefly knocked out Hela the "biggest lightning blast in the history of lightning" and it was visibly bigger than the blast he used to stun Thanos and buy time to throw Stormbreaker. Similarly, the bolt Iron Man withstood in Avengers 1 was far smaller than the one that hit Thanos so it doesn't mean that armour had Thanos level durability.
Anyway, Hela is Thor's older, more powerful sister and she's logically capable of all the durability feats we've seen from him (shrugging off blows from Hulk, unharmed by a 30,000 foot fall, tanking attacks from the reality and power stones, surviving the full force of a star etc). Lightning aside, the only other damage we've seen her take is being cut/stabbed by Asgardian blades but that's largely moot here since she can shrug it off with her healing factor and Thanos doesn't fight with blades anyway.
Thanos had impressive feats shrugging off blunt force attacks in his fights against Hulk and Iron Man but we've seen similar feats from Thor and I'd expect the same from Hela. We've also seen Thanos cut by Iron Man so I doubt he's going to withstand Hela's necroswords; those things were capable of maiming Thor and impaling Surtur.
I agree Thanos has a strength advantage but it isn't huge. We didn't see the limits of the strength of either character. All we can really say is that Thanos is stronger than Hulk and Hela is stronger than Thor.
I'd argue Hela has a major skill and speed advantage though. Sure, Thanos completely outclassed Hulk using skill. The thing is though, Hulk's just a semi-skilled at best brawler who gets by due to incredible strength/durability. Plus we later saw that characters like Iron Man and even Captain America who are far weaker than Thanos were able to use skill/speed to keep him off balance and land hits on him.
Hela's skill feats are far more impressive to me. She fought Thor and Valkyrie - the two most skilled Asgardian warriors we've seen - at once on the bifrost and never took a hit until she was distracted by Surtur appearing and Valkyrie backstabbed her. She also fought an army of Asgardian warriors at once and only took one hit.
Sure, Thanos easily beat Hulk and that's a feat that Hela doesn't have. I'd argue that's only because she's never fought Hulk though. Thor chose to summon Surtur to destroy Asgard because he believed that even if he, Hulk, Valkyrie and Loki fought her together it wouldn't be enough to beat Hela.
As for their respective fights against Thor, for me until MCU Thanos gets more feats, it's not out of the question that Ragnarok Thor could beat Thanos (no stones) one on one or give him a very close fight. That's because we have no idea how Thanos beat Thor off screen. He might have used the power stone, he might have had backup from the Black Order, Thor might have been afraid to use his lightning in a ship full of refugees etc.
On the other hand we saw on screen that Hela was clearly outclassing lightning charged Thor with backup from Valkyrie.
All in all without the stones MCU Thanos has an advantage in raw strength but MCU Hela's in the same league strength wise and has a significant advantage in skill, speed, durability and weaponry. In a fair fight she'll take this and I don't think it's close.
Speaking of which, I'm surprised how close this vote is. The Thanos (with the power stone) vs Hela fight a few months back ended 14-13 but taking away the power stone doesn't seem to have made much difference so far.
While I concur with most of that, I disagree that Thanos has a strength advantage. Thor is easily the strongest asgardian ( bar one) and not too far off Hulk ( based on feats in Ragnarok). Hela was strong enough to manhandle Thor without showing much effort at all. That's pretty impressive. IMO Hela is at least as strong as Thanos.
However, I agree that it's her death-blades that make all the difference, and in the immortal words of Mr Schwarzenegger "If it bleeds...we can kill it."
Without an infinity stone I can't see Thanos' physical strength alone being able to do much damage to Hela, having seen her ignore weapon strikes which would instanly kill an asgardian. He punches her ( which even Cap could survive), she gets up and sticks a dozen death blades in him, game over !
Don't know why I'm so fired up about this battle...guess that's the sign of a good match up, respect to the OP !
I wouldn't make a deal out of that Cap survived a punch since Thanos didn't seem to attempt to kill any of the Avengers when came to Wakanda, he just incapacitated them all with ease. Thanos didn't seem out to kill individuals most of the times after he got a few stones.
You seem to be talking about plot armour and character popularity here. If we started to factor that kind of thing into our fights on here we'd have to conclude that Dr Strange is above Dormammu, the Fantastic Four are above Galactus, Spider-Man's above Venom etc.
I can imagine Marvel writers wanting Thanos to beat a more powerful character like Hela, Ego or Dormammu. I can also imagine Marvel writers wanting Thanos to lose to a less powerful character like Doctor Doom, Captain Marvel, or the Guardians of the Galaxy. When they want those outcomes they'll use luck, mistakes and throwing in/taking away variables like weapons, allies, injuries and trickery to make that happen believably.
I don't think that's relevant here though. The outcome the writers choose for story purposes and the most likely outcome of a fair fight are two different things.
I think the key point is that Hela has a ridiculous healing factor that let her shrug off stab wounds in seconds whereas MCU Thanos has no known healing factor.
The problem with that comparison is that Thor's lightning varies. Thor called the lightning blast that briefly knocked out Hela the "biggest lightning blast in the history of lightning" and it was visibly bigger than the blast he used to stun Thanos and buy time to throw Stormbreaker. Similarly, the bolt Iron Man withstood in Avengers 1 was far smaller than the one that hit Thanos so it doesn't mean that armour had Thanos level durability.
Anyway, Hela is Thor's older, more powerful sister and she's logically capable of all the durability feats we've seen from him (shrugging off blows from Hulk, unharmed by a 30,000 foot fall, tanking attacks from the reality and power stones, surviving the full force of a star etc). Lightning aside, the only other damage we've seen her take is being cut/stabbed by Asgardian blades but that's largely moot here since she can shrug it off with her healing factor and Thanos doesn't fight with blades anyway.
Thanos had impressive feats shrugging off blunt force attacks in his fights against Hulk and Iron Man but we've seen similar feats from Thor and I'd expect the same from Hela. We've also seen Thanos cut by Iron Man so I doubt he's going to withstand Hela's necroswords; those things were capable of maiming Thor and impaling Surtur.
I agree Thanos has a strength advantage but it isn't huge. We didn't see the limits of the strength of either character. All we can really say is that Thanos is stronger than Hulk and Hela is stronger than Thor.
I'd argue Hela has a major skill and speed advantage though.
Sure, Thanos completely outclassed Hulk using skill. The thing is though, Hulk's an unskilled brawler who gets by due to incredible strength/durability. Plus we later saw that characters like Iron Man and even Captain America who are far weaker than Thanos were able to use skill/speed to keep him off balance and land hits on him.
Hela's skill feats are far more impressive to me. She fought Thor and Valkyrie - the two most skilled Asgardian warriors we've seen - at once on the bifrost and never took a hit until she was distracted by Surtur appearing and Valkyrie backstabbed her. She also fought an army of Asgardian warriors at once and only took one hit.
Sure, Thanos easily beat Hulk and that's a feat that Hela doesn't have. I'd argue that's only because she's never fought Hulk though. Thor chose to summon Surtur to destroy Asgard because he believed that even if he, Hulk, Valkyrie and Loki fought her together it wouldn't be enough to beat Hela.
As for their respective fights against Thor, until MCU Thanos gets more feats, it's not out of the question that Ragnarok Thor could beat Thanos (no stones) one on one or give him a very close fight. That's because we have no idea how Thanos beat Thor off screen. He might have used the power stone, he might have had backup from the Black Order, Thor might have been afraid to use his lightning in a ship full of refugees etc.
On the other hand we saw on screen that Hela was clearly outclassing lightning charged Thor with backup from Valkyrie.
All in all without the stones MCU Thanos has an advantage in raw strength but MCU Hela's in the same league strength wise and has a significant advantage in skill, speed, durability and weaponry. In a fair fight she'll take this and I don't think it's close.
Speaking of which, I'm surprised how close this vote is. The Thanos (with the power stone) vs Hela fight a few months back ended 14-13 but taking away the power stone doesn't seem to have made much difference so far.
That wasn't a love tap, Thanos draws his fist back and throws a full on punch. That is a big deal ( both for Cap's superhuman durability and for the relative power of Thanos' punch). The Hulk took a number of those. Whether Thanos was trying to kill Cap or not doesn't matter. If Cap can take a punch like that and live, Hela will take that punch and laugh.......and then turn Thanos into a titan flavoured shish kebab !
While I concur with most of that, I disagree that Thanos has a strength advantage. Thor is easily the strongest asgardian ( bar one) and not too far off Hulk ( based on feats in Ragnarok). Hela was strong enough to manhandle Thor without showing much effort at all. That's pretty impressive. IMO Hela is at least as strong as Thanos.
However, I agree that it's her death-blades that make all the difference, and in the immortal words of Mr Schwarzenegger "If it bleeds...we can kill it."
Without an infinity stone I can't see Thanos' physical strength alone being able to do much damage to Hela, having seen her ignore weapon strikes which would instanly kill an asgardian. He punches her ( which even Cap could survive), she gets up and sticks a dozen death blades in him, game over !
Don't know why I'm so fired up about this battle...guess that's the sign of a good match up, respect to the OP !
Thanos bled from a punch that did nothing. That is not a knock against his durability (it is also not a piercing attack, and cannot logically be used to claim he can be pierced by another attack. It's faulty logic. There is another feat to use against Thanos here, and it isnt this one.)
Thanos has a piercing durability feat. Stormbreaker. A weapon designed to kill him about half impaled him. It did not kill him, but it did wound him. THAT can be used in support of Hela. The question logically becomes, "how does Hela's blade piercing ability stack up against the piercing ability of stormbreaker?" Not sure. If its even, then she'd probably need to pierce him 3-5 times to put him down with the GIANT blades. Given stormbreaker was a McGuffin, and an all father weapon designed to kill Thanos, I'd imagine its piercing is stronger than what Hela can muster. But we don't know for sure. It just shows that Thanos is vulnerable to TRANS LEVEL piercing attacks. Which Hela has. We just dont know how comparable it is to Thor's. But that is a point I will concede.................. It genuinely comes down to if Hela can pierce him better than stormbreaker
Now, I conceded on something. Can't you also concede on the lightning argument I am making lol ? . You havent given Thanos a single edge, other than a slight but not really edge in strength. I provided a legitimate, logic and feat based argument for durability to energy attacks in favor of Thanos. It can't be objectively countered with fair logic because he has that genuine advantage. It doesnt mean he wins, but he has an edge there.
And to piggyback of my last comment, speed does not necessarily equate to skill. Hela does have a slight skill advantage. But it isn't any greater than Thanos' strength advantage.
Given Thanos' easy dispatch of Hulk with skill and the fact that he has never...lost..hand to hand combat shows how skilled he is. Just because he is less flashy, does not mean he is significantly less skilled. Hela's skill advantage = Thanos' strength advantage imo.
I feel I'm making legitimate good logic based arguments based in the philosophy of argument that are being talked around by lowballing and biased logic lol throw me a bone here people!
Based on feats, Hela's skill advantage is pretty major though. You never addressed my point that Thanos' main skill feat is outskilling an unskilled brawler like Hulk, whereas Hela's skill feats include taking on Thor and Valkyrie (both far more skilled than Hulk) at the same time without ever taking a hit and taking on hundreds of Asgardian soldiers in close quarters and only taking one hit.
Thor hit Hela 2-3 times on the bifrost bridge (and several times in the throne room fight) and Valkyrie also landed a head kick.
Thor hit Hela 2-3 times on the bifrost bridge (and several times in the throne room fight) and Valkyrie also landed a head kick.
Because it is personal, and you have a bias otherwise you wouldn't be fired up like myself .
But I still have not seen an actual counter to my durability comment. If you are agreeing in that Thanos' durability feat can be discredited due to visual variability, and a character statement, then that is seemingly a mannifestation of bias. On screen feats and canonical context > character statements, especially in battle forums. (Which is why Hela gets a point, given Thanos' one showing of piercing durability, I'll get to that). But I'll play ball. Thor's attack came in IW came after the "biggest lightning in the history..." Comment. But its still just a character statement that has less weight than canon context and on screen feats. Especially when said feat is against the same attack his opponent faced.
Thanos bled from a punch that did nothing. That is not a knock against his durability (it is also not a piercing attack, and cannot logically be used to claim he can be pierced by another attack. It's faulty logic. There is another feat to use against Thanos here, and it isnt this one.) You are using ABC logic in terms of durability, and ignoring the facts that both characters have a durability feat against the same attack, with Thanos fighting a more powerful version of Thor.
Thanos has a piercing durability feat. Stormbreaker. A weapon designed to kill him about half impaled him. It did not kill him, but it did wound him. THAT can be used in support of Hela. The question logically becomes, "how does Hela's blade piercing ability stack up against the piercing ability of stormbreaker?" Not sure. If its even, then she'd probably need to pierce him 3-5 times to put him down with the GIANT blades. Given stormbreaker was a McGuffin, and an all father weapon designed to kill Thanos, I'd imagine its piercing is stronger than what Hela can muster. But we don't know for sure. It just shows that Thanos is vulnerable to TRANS LEVEL piercing attacks. Which Hela has. We just dont know how comparable it is to Thor's. But that is a point I will concede.
It genuinly comes down to if Hela can pierce him better than stormbreaker
Iron Man was able to give Thanos a minor cut though and that is a point against Thanos durability, especially since that cut came from blunt force rather than a cutting weapon. Iron Man using a blunt 'nano battering ram' fist that spread the impact over a far larger surface area than a blade would was still able to draw blood. This suggests a far stronger character like Hela, using swords that can focus her strength and cut characters as durable as Thor and Surtur Prime should be able to do far worse.
What I meant was that Thor and Valkyrie never land a clean hit on Hela in a two on one fight and after rewatching the fight I still think that's an impressive display of skill. Valkyrie lands two kicks but what matters is that she isn't able to land a hit with her sword (she does later pull off a backstab when Hela's distracted by Surtur but I'm not counting that). Thor has Hela on the backfoot at times and at one point she's forced to dive backwards and his lightning knocks her into the ground but again, he's never able to land a hit with his swords. He does manage to grab her arm and throw her once but she just flips out of it and carries on fighting. In the same fight, Hela hits Thor with four swords to the chest, disarms Thor, throws Thor into the ground once and Valkyrie into the ground twice.
Given that Thor is far more skilled than Hulk (this is made very clear the moment Thor gets serious in the Thor vs Hulk fight) and Valkyrie is also an elite Asgardian warrior, I stand by the point I was making that outskilling both of them at once is a far better skill feat than Thanos outskilling Hulk.
And then there's her ridiculous skill feat against Asgard's army to think about........
Thor definitely uppercuts her with a sword then hits her with a downward blow that slams her into the ground. After that she rolls out of the way of his follow up stab which causes his sword to pierce the bifrost
We're both talking about this moment:
It's the lightning arcing out from the sword that hits her, she keeps dodging the sword itself which is what I'm calling never taking a clean hit.
Anyway, the point I was making is that Hela has a feat of outskilling Thor and Valkyrie which is better than Thanos best skill feat of outskilling Hulk (a relatively unskilled brawler).
She also has these ridiculous skill feats:
Are you with me that she's shown far more skill than Thanos?
True, and the effect of those hits was.....nothing, including Val impaling her from behind with the Dragonfang sword. Whereas Hela threw Valkyrie around effortlessly, cut out Thor's eye and speared him more than once.
I think the quote below kind of sums it up, it's the physics of a blunt force attack vs the physics of a piercing attack. If Thanos' durability is such that even a blunt force attack can draw blood, it follows that a piercing/cutting attack will have an even more damaging effect. It's all about the surface area.
Now if this was the comics the fight might be more even as comic book Thanos has a bunch of powers that MCU Thanos doesn't.
However, while MCU Thanos has Hulk level strength and durability he's clearly mortal, whereas Hela is a goddess whose nearly unkillable, and whose main superpower is killing things.
Thanos with an infinity stone might be able to take her - but without the stones, just can't see it.
In the end we must simply agree to disagree.
This has been a really intense battle - again, respect to the OP for such a good match-up!
Wow that's cool af, I never noticed that it was Thor's lightning arcs that were hitting Hela there. He was literally using lightning as a solid weapon, that's just plain awesome.
Yep she is clearly more skilled than Thanos imo and it's not really that close.
Its close imo. His fight with Hulk showed a very realistic kind of fighting skill that wasn't dependent on flare. When wearing a glove that has crystals that control elements of existence, I doubt you are going to try to outskill iron man, and captain america who are significantly beneath you. Hela has a skill edge but it isnt massive imo.
But I dont think Thor is using lightning as a physical power. Thats a sword he is holding, engulfed in lightning
Yes but the sword itself doesn't touch her, just the lightning and her body reacts to the lightning like it's being hit with a solid object.