MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

[Batmannerism]

Cap wins. Next up:

Black Widow

vs dora milaje

who you got peeps? And I chose this one cause of Civil War.

I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the DM - mostly because we're told they're the good guys, but they often act like villains, which is the fault of bad writers more than anything else ( In Civil War the Avengers legitimately have to wrestle with the idea that they can't just ignore Sovereign borders with zero consequences- in FATWS the DM have "jurisdiction wherever they find themselves to be.")

What would be great is to see them written by someone with some skill.

As for the fight, if Widow is allowed guns she wins 100% as DM don't wear head armour. She can shoot Bucky in the face on an odd angle from at least 20m, so this fight would be over quickly.

What I like about the Widow is that when she fights she can be overpowered by a stronger opponent....because that's a bit realistic ! When she fights dudes, she usually has to hit them by surprise, whack them more than once or hit them with an object to put them down ( market fight scene in Civil War is a good example). Generally, it looks like she expends some effort to fight larger or stronger opponents, to compensate for that disparity. Against someone like Bucky she has absolutely zero chance in unarmed combat, she can't hurt him and can't stop him hurting her.

By contrast the DM are just magic, and can effortlessly defeat highly trained armed soldiers ( including John Walker and Sam Wilson), even if they have a numbers advantage, and who would be physically larger and stronger than the DM, with spears (but without stabbing, which is the primary function of a spear) - even though they wear magic vibranium uniforms it's as if male opponents aren't allowed to hit them, unless it's the 3rd act of the film.

If that kind of plot armour works against female opponents too Widow is doomed, if not then I'll go Widow 7/10 against an average DM soldier.

Lets put all the bull**** aside and say it's a 1 on 1 fist fight with no weapons, no armour, and all conditions being equal - essentially a UFC match with Widow vs Okoye....that's tough, because they are probably very evenly matched with Widow having an experience edge and Okoye being a little larger and stronger.

I'm going to say that Widow would win, but only by the smallest of margins - like out of 10 fights Okoye wins 1 by a knockout with a strike, Widow wins 2 probably by a choke, and 7 fights are a draw with combatants being both too badly injured to continue.

 

[metaphysician]

Black Widow vs Dore Milaje:

Once again, the first question should really be "Which Dore and how many?" *cough* Okoye is not the same as J Random Nameless Dore, and fighting one Dore is not the same as fighting fifty. There's also a wide variation in gear, especially post-WF.

Assuming its against Okoye alone, and that she only has "standard" Dore gear ( and especially *not* the powered armor from late in WF )? I'd call it a coin flip. Standard Dore weaponry is better than what Natasha normally carries, but I'm inclined to say Natasha is more skilled, it is more or less a wash.

 

[Babillygunn]

What would be great is to see them written by someone with some skill.

Let me introduce you to someone:




I think Coogler does a fine job of fleshing them out and humanizing them. But the DM are a fascinating group. They’re completely loyal to the Wakanda crown, and they act in every instance to the furtherance of their own government. They’re not superheroes; they’re essentially soldiers furthering their own nation’s interests either publicly or covertly.
I like them in the context of the films. I probably would not like them in real life. They’re like Jack Bauer in that regard.

Oh, and they wipe the floor with Natasha.

 

[GothamCity]

The first Black Panther film was cool not great. Curious at the sequel.

 

[Luigi]

Ayo vs Nat, hmmm tough one. Both are superb fighters and have advanced tech to help them in fights. I'll go with Ayo on this one.

As T'Challa said in Civil War, it would be an entertaining fight.

 

[Babillygunn]

The first Black Panther film was cool not great. Curious at the sequel.

I find both films to be best of the MCU. The first one especially transcends the “comic book movie” genre and joins the ranks of TDK as generally great cinema.
Just my opinion.

 

[GothamCity]

I find both films to be best of the MCU. The first one especially transcends the “comic book movie” genre and joins the ranks of TDK as generally great cinema.
Just my opinion.

The Black Panter and first 2 Thor films are the best MCU films i think.

 

[Batmannerism]

Let me introduce you to someone:

View attachment 60454


I think Coogler does a fine job of fleshing them out and humanizing them. But the DM are a fascinating group. They’re completely loyal to the Wakanda crown, and they act in every instance to the furtherance of their own government. They’re not superheroes; they’re essentially soldiers furthering their own nation’s interests either publicly or covertly.
I like them in the context of the films. I probably would not like them in real life. They’re like Jack Bauer in that regard.

Oh, and they wipe the floor with Natasha.

Ryan Coogler , the guy in the photo, wrote the mediocre story for Black Panther 1, which was still successful on the strength of Boseman, Bassett, Jordan and Nyongo's terrific performances.

Ryan Coogler also wrote the utter nonsense that passes for story in Black Panther 2, which doesn't fly so well as Boseman is no longer with us (RIP), Bassett gets killed off....by a water grenade...and Nyongo and Jordan only make cameo appearances. As an aside top notch, heck even mediocre writers, probably know that there is a significant difference between fresh and salt water, in terms of animals living in one or the other -skillful writers know things like this because they put some thought into their storytelling choices, instead of just settling on what looks cool and leaving it at that.

If you like these movies, fair play to you. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

But, to me it's kind of unbelievable how Tchalla was probably the best character in Civil War, with definitely the best character arc despite only being a supporting character, yet he took a massive step backwards in his own film. Guess Civil War wasn't written by Ryan Coogler.

One thing we do agree on the Dora Milaje are definitely not superheroes.

What you said about "humanizing" the DM kind of contradicts what you said about them being soldiers who are completely loyal and who only act "in the furtherance of their government" . Because if they're soldiers who just follow orders and don't make moral choices ( well, beyond whether to use glowing daggers or spears) or experience doubt, guilt, ptsd or any of the issues real soldiers do, then they're not really human - if they do experience these emotional issues in WF, I guess I must have missed it, I mean it was so ****ing long I started to zone out at parts .

Do the DM have actual super powers, besides plot armour? I'm assuming DM uniforms are bullet proof, but American special forces soldiers are trained to shoot with precision at close quarters, and there are enough gaps in that lab fight scene for Okoye to have been shot in the head at least a couple of times - possibly while trading quips about spears vs daggers. It reminded me of the terrible throne room fight scene from Last Jedi, where Kylo and Rey fight opponents who obligingly attack one at a time.

What would have made them more compelling, is if Coogler had actually humanized them, and one of them had been injured during that sequence, or they had to struggle to win. Now Okoye gets demoted, which would have been a good character arc to traverse toward redemption - although the reason for demotion didn't really make sense. Still, Okoye is a pretty decent character, although not well served by the story of WF at all.

Maybe you meant something else instead of "humanizing" ?

And finally, are you going to provide any reasoning to back up the assertion that they wipe the floor with Black Widow, or is that just your gut feeling ?

 

[Babillygunn]

 

[Batmannerism]

View attachment 60526

That is a very classy answer Sir, you have my respect.

I apologise for the tone of my response, I wrote it in the wee hours of the morning and it probably sounds harsher than intended.

In all honesty I felt that BP was a mediocre story but elevated by terrific acting....except from Letitia Wright, but she only had a small role.

As for WF.... I could feel my brain cells rebelling as it got more and more ridiculous.

But if you enjoyed it, hey fair play.

Related question, do you think they should have recast Tchalla ? And if so, who ? ( I think John David Washington would have crushed it )

 

[Docker2.0]

it's only one Dora but we end with a tie when I throw Dora a vote!

Next up:

Namor

vs Shang Chi

Who you got peeps?!

 

[Luigi]

Namor (if it takes place near water)

I'm inclined to agree with M'Baku about Namor being on the same level as the Hulk. Combine that strength and durability with his ability to fly, he simply outclasses Shang-Chi.

 

[Babillygunn]

Related question, do you think they should have recast Tchalla ? And if so, who ? ( I think John David Washington would have crushed it )

Good question. I’m actually torn on that one. I actually think that they could have recast and it would have been accepted. And John David Washington is a great choice. But I respect why they didn’t feel comfortable with a recast.
That said, at times it felt a little odd that the storyline of Wakanda Forever was so centered on T’Challa’s death, but it really was grounded in Boseman’s death.

It had very good and noble intentions, but it also felt uncomfortable during some occasions.
I liked WF a lot. But I probably would’ve recast.

 

[Batmannerism]

it's only one Dora but we end with a tie when I throw Dora a vote!

Next up:

Namor

vs Shang Chi

Who you got peeps?!

The Ten Rings grant immortality (no aging) but also undefined powers that allow the owner to blast through entire armies or explode Cthulhu-esque monsters.

People saying that Namor is a rival for Hulk or Thor .....don't see where you're getting that from.
Thor and Hulk have strength/power feats on a level beyond anything Namor shows.

Namor has flight, super strength, and some degree of durabiltiy, but not to high temperatures I mean, Thor would have laughed off a jet engine blast - he stood in front of an unleashed star - and Hulk has shown himself to be highly resistant to energy attacks.

Part of the problem with working out his power level, is the ****ty writing in Wakanda Forever, that isn't even internally consistent - sorry @Babillygunn but this is Coogler's fault.

I mean, if he's that strong he should have killed Shuri with a single blow - as the energy absorbing vibranium suit has been shown to have limits. He would have also killed MBaku and anyone else he punched. The Hulk can knock down buildings easily, and often just by accident.

In the comics, Namor can go toe to toe with a baseline Hulk, but generally not with an enraged Hulk.

Okay, back to this fight.

If it was a straight up melee fight, mano a mano, Namor should splatter Shang Chi.

However, if Shang Chi uses the badly defined power of the Ten Rings, I think he could fry Namor - I mean they killed Cthulhu...sorry, the Dweller in Darkness.

So I'll say Shang Chi 7/10.

 

[Batmannerism]

Namor (if it takes place near water)

I'm inclined to agree with M'Baku about Namor being on the same level as the Hulk. Combine that strength and durability with his ability to fly, he simply outclasses Shang-Chi.

Mate, I think you're on shaky ground taking Hulk advice from Mbaku.

Did Mbaku see the Hulk fight Thanos 1 on 1 ? Did he see the Hulk stop a huge flying monster with a single punch in New York? Was Mbaku there when Thor and Hulk fought on Sakaar.
Was Mbaku watching when Hulk used the infinity gauntlet to resurrect half the population of the universe ? Did he see Hulk fight a giant undead asgardian wolf ?

These are all rhetorical questions, because Mbaku doesn't really have any idea about what the Hulk is capable of and should sit down and shut up on this subject.

If you've got some Namor feats to rival anything Hulk has shown us, please share them, but I didn't see him do anything that was even close to the Hulk's feats.

 

[Luigi]

Mate, I think you're on shaky ground taking Hulk advice from Mbaku.

Did Mbaku see the Hulk fight Thanos 1 on 1 ? Did he see the Hulk stop a huge flying monster with a single punch in New York? Was Mbaku there when Thor and Hulk fought on Sakaar.
Was Mbaku watching when Hulk used the infinity gauntlet to resurrect half the population of the universe ? Did he see Hulk fight a giant undead asgardian wolf ?

These are all rhetorical questions, because Mbaku doesn't really have any idea about what the Hulk is capable of and should sit down and shut up on this subject.

If you've got some Namor feats to rival anything Hulk has shown us, please share them, but I didn't see him do anything that was even close to the Hulk's feats.

Fair enough about M'Baku not witnessing any of those feats but Coogler has mentioned in interviews that Namor is on the same level as Hulk.

Guess the only way to be sure is to see how Namor fares against stronger opponents in future appearances.

 

[Batmannerism]

Fair enough about M'Baku not witnessing any of those feats but Coogler has mentioned in interviews that Namor is on the same level as Hulk.

Guess the only way to be sure is to see how Namor fares against stronger opponents in future appearances.

Coogler can say whatever he likes - but it sounds like he hasn't actually watched past MCU films, because the Hulk has demonstrated feats much more impressive than anything Namor has shown us. If he actually showed us Namor doing Hulk level stuff, his words might mean something.

I mean, seriously, how long would Shuri as Black Panther last in a fight with a pissed off Hulk - although Professor Hulk is kind of useless - but imagine you pulled in Hulk from the first Avengers film ? She'd be meat paste if he connected even once.

Coogler also seems to think that being impaled on a spear ( which would have pretty much severed her spine ) is the kind of injury someone can just shrug off. Is Shuri Wolverine now ?

The guy can direct but his writing in WF is dog**** - same as Patty Jenkins. WW is a good movie, because Patty didnt write it, WW84 is garbage by comparison, because Patty isn't a writer.

 

[Babillygunn]

I go with Shang Chi because…I like him a lot more.

 

[Batmannerism]

I go with Shang Chi because…I like him a lot more.

Fair play.

 

[metaphysician]

Namor vs Shang-Chi:

I like Shang-Chi, but I give this to Namor. I tend to place Shang-Chi with the rings as being in the roughly the same weight class as a fully geared out Black Panther. That ultimately isn't enough to take down Namor, not without the benefit of a customized supertech trap to weaken him first ( and note that even then, Shuri didn't win the ensuing personal fight, she had to self-destruct the wreckage of her aircraft next to Namor to take him out ). Namor is strong, tough, fast, and has a vibranium weapon of his own, Shang-Chi will do some damage but ultimately not be able to keep him from closing to melee and taking him out.

 

[Bayne]

Namor vs Shang-Chi:

I like Shang-Chi, but I give this to Namor. I tend to place Shang-Chi with the rings as being in the roughly the same weight class as a fully geared out Black Panther. That ultimately isn't enough to take down Namor, not without the benefit of a customized supertech trap to weaken him first ( and note that even then, Shuri didn't win the ensuing personal fight, she had to self-destruct the wreckage of her aircraft next to Namor to take him out ). Namor is strong, tough, fast, and has a vibranium weapon of his own, Shang-Chi will do some damage but ultimately not be able to keep him from closing to melee and taking him out.

I wasn't sure, but you've convinced me. I vote Namor, too.

 

[Batmannerism]

Namor vs Shang-Chi:

I like Shang-Chi, but I give this to Namor. I tend to place Shang-Chi with the rings as being in the roughly the same weight class as a fully geared out Black Panther. That ultimately isn't enough to take down Namor, not without the benefit of a customized supertech trap to weaken him first ( and note that even then, Shuri didn't win the ensuing personal fight, she had to self-destruct the wreckage of her aircraft next to Namor to take him out ). Namor is strong, tough, fast, and has a vibranium weapon of his own, Shang-Chi will do some damage but ultimately not be able to keep him from closing to melee and taking him out.

Honestly, if Namor is supposed to be as strong as the Hulk ( which previous posters have suggested Coogler has said so) he should be able to splatter Shuri pretty easily, despite the vibranium suit.

We saw what happens to even a super soldier from a single blow from the Hulk, when Hulk casually booted Blonski in TIH 2008. We know
that the suit has limits as to how much kinetic energy it can absorb, from BP , IW and EG.

Honestly, for Shuri to survive a fight with Namor is a bit far fetched.....much less walk off being impaled with a spear ( guess she had a back-up spinal column installed).

Ugh. Sorry, I just hate ****ty writing. There had to be a better way to have Shuri win that fight ( although the idea of going to fight the Atlanteans ....sorry the Talocan on their home field is kind of mind bogglingly dumb, only slightly dumber than salt water aquatic beings swimming up a fresh water river to a landlocked country in East Africa....)

Sorry.... I'll stop now.

On a related note, couldn't Shang just use the rings' deus-ex-machina/cthulhu-destroying function to make Namor explode ?

 

[Bayne]

On a related note, couldn't Shang just use the rings' deus-ex-machina/cthulhu-destroying function to make Namor explode ?

Whenever you're dealing with unique mystical artifacts, the exact details of how they work and therefore under what circumstances they could or couldn't do a specific thing is always a bit fuzzy.

But - having gone back to look at the scene again - I'm gonna say a pretty definitive no to this particular idea.

Shang-Chi obviously can't force the rings down Namor's throat given the size differences (and if anyone seriously believed he could pull that off, then the explosion wouldn't even be necessary as Namor would not survive having the Ten Tings shoved down his esophagus).

Also, the magic Shang-Chi did to make the Rings do whatever they did clearly took a very long time. It's really obvious that only worked in the movie because Shang-Chi had allies capable of completely immobilizing the DiD long enough for him to do his thing.

So unless we're going to spot Shang-Chi some ringers capable of holding Namor still, there's no reason to believe Namor couldn't easily evade the explosion given his flight and agility. Or more likely, that he couldn't easily take advantage of Shang-Chi's obvious vulnerability in that moment and put him down before the Rings even go off.

 

[metaphysician]

Re: Namor and Hulk, note that Shuri only directly fought Namor *after* he spent a while in the Wakandan Dehydration Chamber. By both the explicit statement of the movie *and* the precedent in the comics, this would weaken him, so during that fight he wasn't Hulk-powerful anymore.

( Also of note is that the trap, despite using Wakandan tech force fields *and* Namor's equivalent of kryptonite to continuously weaken him, could only keep him contained for about a minute before he broke out and destroyed the whole aircraft. While not a direct comparison, its worth remembering that the city-scale version of Wakandan force fields could no-sell skyscraper sized ships and Hulk-class bricks. While the aircraft-scale version is obviously going to be weaker, I consider "Could only contain Namor for about a minute" to be one of the softer bits of evidence supporting Namor being as bricky as claimed. )

Re: the Ten Rings, sure, their Wave Motion Super Attack could definitely take out Namor, he's bricky but there's no evidence for him being brickier than the Dweller-in-Darkness. However, using the Rings super attack required a lot of setup, it wasn't just a "press button nuke area". I just don't see Shang getting the chance against a foe that is as small and fast as Namor, especially since he doesn't have a dragon for backup ( or any backup at all ). He's going to need to spend all his time and attention keeping Namor from just flying up and punching or stabbing him.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'm going to vote Shang Chi leaving us with a 3-3 tie!!

Next up:

Gorr the god butcher

vs Savage Hulk

Who you got peeps?!