MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

[Bayne]

Also, the shield doesn't reflect energy back at attackers and it doesn't transmit any fraction of the attack to Cap's arm. We've seen it completely absorb a full-strength direct hit from Mjolnir.

 

[Batmannerism]

Also, the shield doesn't reflect energy back at attackers and it doesn't transmit any fraction of the attack to Cap's arm. We've seen it completely absorb a full-strength direct hit from Mjolnir.

Actually, I have to disagree with you there - partially.

In Age of Ultron and Avengers Thor used Mjolnir to strike the shield and the impact is reflected- it flattens trees in Avengers and in Age of Ultron it flattens a bunch of Hydra troopers.

Also, in Winter Soldier we see it get hit by a grenade which sends Cap flying - which shouldn't happen if it absorbs or reflects the impact ( and you wouldn't think a rifle launched grenade is more powerful than Mjolnir).

I love MCU Cap, but the shield is really ridiculous because it doesn't behave consistently. What it can do changes from scene to scene.

I mean in one scene it's knocking people out, and in the next it's cutting steel cable with ease.

The shield behaves however the writers need it to to keep the plot moving, so it doesn't just ignore the laws of physics, as Spidey says in Civil War, it's kind of magic.

That's why I disagree with you. It should, as you say, not reflect or transmit any energy....but sometimes it does.

 

[Bayne]

Actually, I have to disagree with you there - partially.

In Age of Ultron and Avengers Thor used Mjolnir to strike the shield and the impact is reflected- it flattens trees in Avengers and in Age of Ultron it flattens a bunch of Hydra troopers.

Also, in Winter Soldier we see it get hit by a grenade which sends Cap flying - which shouldn't happen if it absorbs or reflects the impact ( and you wouldn't think a rifle launched grenade is more powerful than Mjolnir).

I love MCU Cap, but the shield is really ridiculous because it doesn't behave consistently. What it can do changes from scene to scene.

I mean in one scene it's knocking people out, and in the next it's cutting steel cable with ease.

The shield behaves however the writers need it to to keep the plot moving, so it doesn't just ignore the laws of physics, as Spidey says in Civil War, it's kind of magic.

That's why I disagree with you. It should, as you say, not reflect or transmit any energy....but sometimes it does.

I agree it's a wildly inconsistent object by any realistic standard. I do view that as partly under the purview of suspension of disbelief/fictional materials have fictional qualities form of logic, though.

Thor reflecting attacks may look like an exception that shouldn't happen, but it still most certainly isn't the shield reflecting an attack back in the direction it came from. That would be a capability we definitely should have seen if the shield were actually capable of doing it. There are too many times when that sort of capability would have made a huge difference in Cap's battle accomplishments for him to have just never bothered to use it.

And the grenade is certainly also an inconsistency/exception, but I view it as exactly the same as the shield being able to bounce around the first place. Under normal, realistic physics, bouncing shouldn't be possible at all if a material actually absorbs all kinetic energy. But it's explicitly and systematically allowed under the rules of the shield nonetheless, despite the shield still being able to completely block something like Mjolnir. And since there was no indication whatsoever of the grenade actually hurting Cap, rather than simply moving the shield (and the person holding it) backward a bit, I don't really accept it as evidence that impacts on the shield can actually hurt the person holding it.

Ultimately it all comes down to the rule of cool, so I definitely get the response that it's ridiculously illogical and inconsistent, but even allowing for that I still say that arguing the shield will reflect Gilgamesh's attack back at him or conduct so much energy from that attack that it will break Cap's arm just isn't a reasonable argument based on the movies.

 

[metaphysician]

Cap vs Gilgamesh:

Yeah, Gil takes it. Again, its Eternals, so evidence is scant, but he definitely seemed like he was supposed to be a high end brick, and probably at least *should* be brickier than Ikaris ( it was his schtick, and he didn't have flight and energy blasts ). He'd be a better fight for the Hulk than Cap, Steve just won't be able to hurt him.

Also, to note, the only things we ever saw killing an Eternal were:

1. Flying into the sun
2. Kro's weird energy drain attack, which did *not* strike me as a conventional damaging attack, but a specific "extract the cosmic power from an Eternal" move

Otherwise, the worst we saw happen to an Eternal was being battered and knocked out.

 

[metaphysician]

Agreed. Cap has been enhanced to peak human perfection but he's not superhuman to the best of my knowledge...

The shield would probably absorb much of the impact but a strong enough punch from Gilgamesh could still potentially break his arm. I'll go with Gilgamesh here.

Captain America is *absolutely* superhuman, and has been since his first post-SSS scene in The First Avenger, where he did stuff like "chase down cars on foot", "make 10+ foot vertical leaps", "tear the door off a car and use it as a shield", "swim after a sub and catch up to it, then punch out its porthole", and "toss a man bodily 20+ feet straight up from the water". He has consistently been superhuman in every single movie appearance since. Why do people keep making this very obviously false statement?

 

[metaphysician]

He held a helicopter to the ground with one hand. Didn't he throw a motorcycle as well?

Not only did he throw a motorcycle, but he throw it hard enough to completely total a jeep. As in, the jeep had a motorcycle-sized hole where its engine used to be, and was kind of knocked back/into the air by the impact. And it wasn't a small motorcycle either, it had a full sidecar.

 

[Batgirl0202]

He held a helicopter to the ground with one hand. Didn't he throw a motorcycle as well?

Good question. I was never the biggest Captain America fan but my understanding from the comics was that he had basically been enhanced to Olympic level athlete status. However, he was able to use his tactical and combat training to defeat enemies far more powerful than himself.

What exactly is his power level in the movies? has it ever been established?

 

[metaphysician]

Oh, and re: the shield, my general read is it does reflect attacks. . . specifically, *energy* attacks. He can use it like a mirror against most of such, but it doesn't do that versus most or all forms of kinetic attacks. Those just get stopped. As for force transmission, sure, it seems to let some force leak through. This is why, in order to block the really big attacks, Steve pretty consistently needs to brace first. Note that he didn't just wave the shield around in Avengers when Thor decided to "drop the hammer"; this would be consistent with "the shield lets a certain amount of force 'leak through', but if the superhuman holding it is properly prepared and braced, they can stand up against said leakage.

 

[metaphysician]

Good question. I was never the biggest Captain America fan but my understanding from the comics was that he had basically been enhanced to Olympic level athlete status. However, he was able to use his tactical and combat training to defeat enemies far more powerful than himself.

What exactly is his power level in the movies? has it ever been established?

. . . okay, time for a stupid question. Have you watched the movies in which Captain America appears? Because, if you have, then I don't know what to say. The movies themselves very clearly establish his power level, by virtue of "the stuff that he actually does on screen". Which is "Captain America is roughly in the same physical tier as people like Black Panther and Spider-man".

 

[Batgirl0202]

Respectfully, and I don't mean this as an insult, your knowledge is wrong.

I dont say that often, but what is shown in the MCU films tells us that Cap is unquestionably superhuman.

In the regular comics Cap is peak human but in the MCU he has much more in common with Ultimate Marvel Cap, who is definitely superhuman.

Cap's feats in the MCU films are demonstrably beyond peak human. No human could survive the falls or impact he takes. In Winter Soldier he is knocked off a bridge, falls at least 50 feet, smashing through the window of a bus, which then crashes. He gets up about 30 seconds later, unscathed. Even the toughest human would have been a mess of pulped flesh and broken bones.

In the awful Falcon and Winter Soldier series Bucky, who is equivalent to Cap physically, jumps out of a low flying plane and smashes through a tree canopy before jogging away.

Cap takes point blank repulsor blasts from Iron Man, as well as full on punches. He is able to outrun cars while chasing Bucky and Tchalla on foot.

No human could hold down a helicopter or throw a motorcycle hard enough to smash a truck.

So, Cap is definitely superhuman- but in these circumstances, Gilgamesh is a lot more superhuman.

Ooops sorry, I responded to someone else but didn't see that you had already answered my question

I guess what I was getting at is that Cap is clearly far superior to regular humans in the context of the films, obviously. However, could he realistically beat Spider-Man or Black Panther in hand-to-hand combat without his shield?

In Avengers 2012, if memory serves it was established that Cap wasn't in Iron Man's power class. Using this logic, he wouldn't be anywhere near Gilgamesh's power class either...

I stand by my ranking for this one!

 

[metaphysician]

There is a huge amount of room between "equal to Iron Man" and "ordinary human", to put it mildly.

 

[InCali]

Respectfully, and I don't mean this as an insult, your knowledge is wrong.

I dont say that often, but what is shown in the MCU films tells us that Cap is unquestionably superhuman.

In the regular comics Cap is peak human but in the MCU he has much more in common with Ultimate Marvel Cap, who is definitely superhuman.

Cap's feats in the MCU films are demonstrably beyond peak human. No human could survive the falls or impact he takes. In Winter Soldier he is knocked off a bridge, falls at least 50 feet, smashing through the window of a bus, which then crashes. He gets up about 30 seconds later, unscathed. Even the toughest human would have been a mess of pulped flesh and broken bones.

In the awful Falcon and Winter Soldier series Bucky, who is equivalent to Cap physically, jumps out of a low flying plane and smashes through a tree canopy before jogging away.

Cap takes point blank repulsor blasts from Iron Man, as well as full on punches. He is able to outrun cars while chasing Bucky and Tchalla on foot.

No human could hold down a helicopter or throw a motorcycle hard enough to smash a truck.

So, Cap is definitely superhuman- but in these circumstances, Gilgamesh is a lot more superhuman.

I also disagree that a punch to the shield from Gilgamesh would break Cap's arm. Remember in the Avengers when Thor brought down Mjolnir on Cap's shield? Gilgamesh in no way could generate that kind of force.

 

[InCali]

Ooops sorry, I responded to someone else but didn't see that you had already answered my question

I guess what I was getting at is that Cap is clearly far superior to regular humans in the context of the films, obviously. However, could he realistically beat Spider-Man or Black Panther in hand-to-hand combat without his shield?

In Avengers 2012, if memory serves it was established that Cap wasn't in Iron Man's power class. Using this logic, he wouldn't be anywhere near Gilgamesh's power class either...

I stand by my ranking for this one!

Possibly if they didn't have their web or vibranium suit/claws. SM is probably a little stronger, but a much, much inferior fighter.

 

[Docker2.0]

Gilgamesh wins. Next up:
Makkari

vs Quicksilver(not Ralph Bohner)

Am I the only one who thinks Ralph Bohner sounds like he should be in adult films?!

Who you got peeps?!

 

[InCali]

Ummmmm......Fox QS was a lot faster than MCU QS (don't split hairs, you know what I mean), but there's no way to compare the speed to Makkari that I can tell. I will say Makkari because the eternals seem to be a lot tougher than humans and I think the punch that nailed Ikaris takes out QS and she seems to be able to take a lot more punishment.

 

[Docker2.0]

Ummmmm......Fox QS was a lot faster than MCU QS (don't split hairs, you know what I mean), but there's no way to compare the speed to Makkari that I can tell. I will say Makkari because the eternals seem to be a lot tougher than humans and I think the punch that nailed Ikaris takes out QS and she seems to be able to take a lot more punishment.

Oh, so you saying Eternals are better than mutants? You look down on mutants don't you? Sound like a mutant hater............you disgust me.............

 

[Batgirl0202]

Ummmmm......Fox QS was a lot faster than MCU QS (don't split hairs, you know what I mean), but there's no way to compare the speed to Makkari that I can tell. I will say Makkari because the eternals seem to be a lot tougher than humans and I think the punch that nailed Ikaris takes out QS and she seems to be able to take a lot more punishment.

Agreed. QS is a mutated human while Makkari is an Eternal. Once again I gotta go with the E Team

 

[Docker2.0]

Why yall hate mutants so much?!

Suddenly I don't feel comfortable around you guys any more.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

We don't hate mutants, we just think them vs Eternals is like hedges vs lawnmowers.


MAKKARI

I wonder how she would fare against Apocalypse (who I doubt would trap her leg with ground) and Dark Phoenix.

 

[Batmannerism]

Gilgamesh wins. Next up:
Makkari

vs Quicksilver(not Ralph Bohner)

Am I the only one who thinks Ralph Bohner sounds like he should be in adult films?!

Who you got peeps?!

Quicksilver is faster. Time literally slows to a crawl, he's so fast. Ikaris was able to tank a bunch of Makaari's punches and then grab her and blast her. I doubt he could grab QS.

She is definitely physically much tougher. So I suppose he would have to get very creative with his speed to seriously harm her.

Still, I go with Quicksilver.

 

[metaphysician]

Quicksilver vs Makkari:

Well, there are technically two questions here. There's the comparison with the Quicksilver in the Fox movies, and there's the comparison with the "Quicksilver" from WandaVision. . . since they aren't the same person at all. The latter is easy: based on the feats shown in WandaVision, Makkari easily outperforms Ralph in every way. The former. . . is tougher.

Okay, first, my refrain: Eternals is just one movie, with a ton of characters, so everyone is short on feats, etc etc. That out of the way, I think Makkari wins. Yes, she does not have any explicit show-off scenes like Quicksilver does, vis a vis "Doing absurd numbers of actions while everyone else is frozen to a musical backdrop". However, she *does* have the "We need to find where the Celestial is emerging, I'm going to search the whole planet" scene, which is IMO a roughly comparable feat of high end speed. She gets hit a few times in the final battle, but given she also does a whole lot of "avoids attacks while blitzing the crap out of the opponent", I'm inclined to just put that down to 'Speedster PIS'*, since that happens with almost every speedster feats or not. Combine that impressive level of speed, with demonstrable levels of durability and firepower? Makkari should take it; even if Quicksilver still has a speed edge, its probably not "you are a statue" level of edge, and that means Makkari's higher physicality would let her win out.

*'Speedster PIS'- "Plot Induced Stupidity", in this context the tendency of speedsters to forget to dodge an opponent that should be immobile from their perspective, run around in a circle in a confined area thus making them targetable, closeline themselves on a stationary arm that is plainly visible, etc.

 

[metaphysician]

Oh, so you saying Eternals are better than mutants? You look down on mutants don't you? Sound like a mutant hater............you disgust me.............

I mean, on average, Eternals *are* better than mutants. Mutants are just humans with some powers, not immortal demigods.

 

[Docker2.0]

We don't hate mutants, we just think them vs Eternals is like hedges vs lawnmowers.


MAKKARI

I wonder how she would fare against Apocalypse (who I doubt would trap her leg with ground) and Dark Phoenix.

 

[Docker2.0]

I mean, on average, Eternals *are* better than mutants. Mutants are just humans with some powers, not immortal demigods.

 

[Batmannerism]

I mean, on average, Eternals *are* better than mutants. Mutants are just humans with some powers, not immortal demigods.

Well, apples and oranges - the Eternals are not living beings. Mutants are the product of evolution, but Eternals are the product of direct design.
They are synthetic, as much as Arishem says.

So really, there's no comparison.