MCU X-Men - Part 1

[Iceman]

Cyclops
Jean
Rogue
Storm
Psylocke
Emma
Beast
Gambit
Angel
Colossus
Nightcrawler
Banshee
Forge
Bishop
Polaris
Jubilee
Dazzler
Havok

Those are the X-Men staples, why go to someone who is more integral to the New Mutants and X-Force?

Wolverine, Iceman and Kitty too.

 

[Marvel united]

To be fair, Forge is a boring character. Im fine with him not being used.



Did you see me mention Forge, Karma or Warpath in the post you quoted? I talked about Storm, whom you initially disregarded and pointed to other characters being more integral to defining the X-men than her

Maybe I didn't understand your argument. You said the Spider-Man comparsion is moot and then proceeded to mention Iceman, Gambit and Rouge. So I assumed you were making the point that it doesn't matter whether those characters are included over B-list members. And I never disregarded Storm, I didn't mention her in my post to Psylockolussus because the subject was race swaps of white characters and Storm is already black.

What does that have to do with my point? The only founding members in the original lineup were Thor, Hulk and Iron Man. The other three were later additions and later white ones at that. If the MCU were to have Jean, Cyclops, Beast (originals) + Storm, Wolverine and Psylocke, that already is doing better than the Avengers, and no race swap is needed

Which is why I think Cyclops, Jean and Storm have an almsot guaranteed spot as members in the MCU X-lineup. (I know Storm isn't a founding member but she not only adds diversity to team but she also defined the team for decades, so I consider her more important than Hank)

I could see some having a problem with 4 white characters vs 2 minority characters. But I myself would have no problem with that lineup

 

[Lip]

Reading this thread, sometimes I just want to rip my eyes off with a plastic fork and set them on fire.

I will never understand how people can read hundreds of X-Men comics, say they care about them, but never really getting the message. Gez.

Maybe the 18 years of FOX constantly putting the minorities in the background as decorative roles made a huge impact in what the X-Men is supposed to represent.

 

[TheVileOne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFg690Gpcigt=153s

Why u do this?

 

[Marvel united]

Reading this thread, sometimes I just want to rip my eyes off with a plastic fork and set them on fire.

I will never understand how people can read hundreds of X-Men comics, say they care about them, but never really getting the message. Gez.

Maybe the 18 years of FOX constantly putting the minorities in the background as decorative roles made a huge impact in what the X-Men is supposed to represent.

You don't understand that some fans want these characters to look like they did in the comics which is just a natural effect of having read and grew up with the comics and cartoons? Everybody that loves the X-Men don't love them SOLEY because of the themes and metaphors of the franchise. They also love the characters, the stories and the relationships. You say it like the minority metaphors should be the only thing that matters to X-fans and the only thing they should care about staying true to in the MCU version

 

[psylockolussus]

Reading this thread, sometimes I just want to rip my eyes off with a plastic fork and set them on fire.

I will never understand how people can read hundreds of X-Men comics, say they care about them, but never really getting the message. Gez.

Maybe the 18 years of FOX constantly putting the minorities in the background as decorative roles made a huge impact in what the X-Men is supposed to represent.

And no one is saying bury characters like Psylocke, Storm, Bishop Jubilee, Forge.... Why aren't these characters enough for diversity? Why do you need to race bend just to justify X-Men's message? Also, being minority doesn't only deal with the skin color. The message of the X-Men can be interpreted in a lot of ways. Are you gonna punish the people who have read the comics for years and want those characters to look eXactly the same in the films and claim that they don't get the message of the comics. Seriously?

 

[Shikamaru]

And no one is saying bury characters like Psylocke, Storm, Bishop Jubilee, Forge.... Why aren't these characters enough for diversity? Why do you need to race bend just to justify X-Men's message? Also, being minority doesn't only deal with the skin color. The message of the X-Men can be interpreted in a lot of ways. Are you gonna punish the people who have read the comics for years and want those characters to look eXactly the same in the films and claim that they don't get the message of the comics. Seriously?

Would starting out with those characters eliminate the need for diversity or would it just temporarily fix the problem?

Most X-Men are white. That means the more the team grows, the more they'll be put in a position where they have to race swap white characters or create new minority ones (the latter option means it will take years before you see a lot of your favorite 20th century X-Men again).

 

[Marvel united]

Would starting out with those characters eliminate the need for diversity or would it just temporarily fix the problem?

Most X-Men are white. That means the more the team grows, the more they'll be put in a position where they have to race swap white characters or create new minority ones (the latter option means it will take years before you see a lot of your favorite 20th century X-Men again).

Well, if they wanted to use only those characters then there are enough for two or three films depending on the size of the roster. You'd only have to start race changing if you try ti have a roster the size of Jim Lee era. But I'd rather not have the main X-Men that most people care about sacrifed solely for diversity even if they were to stay all white

 

[Havok83]

I still dont understand why people say they NEED to race swap anyone

 

[TheVileOne]

For inclusion.

 

[Marvel united]

I still dont understand why people say they NEED to race swap anyone

I don't understand the notion that EVERYBODY has to be swapped. Including Cyclops and Jean, like no white people in the team at all. There has to be a middle ground

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Because the majority of the most iconic xmen/mutant characters in general are white. Plain and simple.

 

[TheVileOne]

What about gender swaps and just using Laura as the current Wolverine?

 

[psylockolussus]

Would starting out with those characters eliminate the need for diversity or would it just temporarily fix the problem?

Most X-Men are white. That means the more the team grows, the more they'll be put in a position where they have to race swap white characters or create new minority ones (the latter option means it will take years before you see a lot of your favorite 20th century X-Men again).

You know what, I don't even fully get this need for diversity. Like I said its not just about skin color. There are other things that make someone different or a minority. With characters like Beast, Angel and Cyclops they got this physical feature that makes different from the others. You already got Psylocke, Storm, Bishop, Forge and Jubilee as poc. While Nightcrawler and Beast are blue. While Iceman, Colossus and Emma can cover themselves in a different element. Its not a gonna look like a group of white people that came from the same country with few poc. Then include the factor that some of them have an uncommon hair color. As a group, X-Men already look diverse.

 

[Marvel united]

Because the majority of the most iconic xmen/mutant characters in general are white. Plain and simple.

So that means everybody should be race-swapped? Even the most prominent members that have been a staple for decades? That's going wayyy too far with this whole thing. There a boundaries that need to be set for who can and can't change races.

 

[Havok83]

Because the majority of the most iconic xmen/mutant characters in general are white. Plain and simple.

so what? It is what it is. I dont get why they need to have their races changed on screen. I could be wrong but I dont recall anyone making a stink about Marvel not race swapping the Avengers

 

[psylockolussus]

They didn't race swap any of the major Avengers - all the heroes that got a solo movie or will got a movie are all white except for Black Panther. With Storm, Psylocke, Bishop, Jubilee, Forge around - why would they suddenly change it up for the o5 and the others. Just stick to what the characters look like.

 

[Marvel united]

so what? It is what it is. I dont get why they need to have their races changed on screen. I could be wrong but I dont recall anyone making a stink about Marvel not race swapping the Avengers

Some did complain; I remember a couple of articles complaining about Marvel's lack of diversity but nobody could hear them over the sound of Avengers making billions of dollars.

 

[Lip]

You don't understand that some fans want these characters to look like they did in the comics which is just a natural effect of having read and grew up with the comics and cartoons? Everybody that loves the X-Men don't love them SOLEY because of the themes and metaphors of the franchise. They also love the characters, the stories and the relationships. You say it like the minority metaphors should be the only thing that matters to X-fans and the only thing they should care about staying true to in the MCU version

You're right. They love the characters, not their skin tone. Domino was considered almost unanimously the highlight of Deadpool 2. So...

And no one is saying bury characters like Psylocke, Storm, Bishop Jubilee, Forge.... Why aren't these characters enough for diversity?

Because among 50+ iconic characters, there're like 5 POC. I have no idea where you come from or the kind of places that you're used to go into. But my world is not majorly white. Nor straight. It's very diverse in many levels. And even tho I do not live in America, I'm sure, right now, it's a very diverse place. So, like the in the comics, this diversity needs to be represented on screen because 1) It reflects the world as it is now. 2) It's true to what the X-Men stands for. 3) We're not living in the 60's anymore.


Plus, you did not show any outrage with the whitewashing in New Mutants. Actually, you're totally OK with it:

(About Alice Braga as Cecilia Reyes)

I guess this is already official given by the recent news.

I don't really care about the actress, though I like that she looks the part. I am just excited to see Dr. Reyes outside of the comic books. Such an underused powerhouse.

You only want the characters in the movies to look like the comics, you said? So much for faithfulness, huh.

You know what, I don't even fully get this need for diversity. Like I said its not just about skin color. There are other things that make someone different or a minority. With characters like Beast, Angel and Cyclops they got this physical feature that makes different from the others. You already got Psylocke, Storm, Bishop, Forge and Jubilee as poc. While Nightcrawler and Beast are blue. While Iceman, Colossus and Emma can cover themselves in a different element. Its not a gonna look like a group of white people that came from the same country with few poc. Then include the factor that some of them have an uncommon hair color. As a group, X-Men already look diverse.

If you're adding Hank and Kurt as minorities because they're blue 1) You really never got any of the X-Men messages and 2) Don't even bother doing this, because they're all mutants, so inside that fantastical world, they're minorities.

And we're talking about real minorities here and real social issues, like representation.

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't recall anyone saying all X-Men have to be minorities. That seems like a strawman to me than something anyone here genuinely said.

They didn't race swap any of the major Avengers - all the heroes that got a solo movie or will got a movie are all white except for Black Panther. With Storm, Psylocke, Bishop, Jubilee, Forge around - why would they suddenly change it up for the o5 and the others. Just stick to what the characters look like.

so what? It is what it is. I dont get why they need to have their races changed on screen. I could be wrong but I dont recall anyone making a stink about Marvel not race swapping the Avengers

The difference with the X-Men is that it's almost unintentional that most of the O5 were white. It was a book aimed at persecuted readers, but it came out when segregation was a thing and Marvel as a company was just taking off. It made more marketing sense to make them white but had that not been an issue, there's no way most of the O5 would have been white. In this case it would be more of a race 'correction' than a race swap, which I wouldn't say about the Avengers.

The other difference is that Claremont's run (where X-Men as we know it starts) was considered multi-ethnic by 1975 standards. It was literally considered groundbreaking at the time to have a team of mostly non-traditional Americans. Had Claremont written X-Men today, it would have been groundbreaking by 2018 standards.

 

[Marvel united]

You're right. They love the characters, not their skin tone. Domino was considered almost unanimously the highlight of Deadpool 2. So....

They love ALL of them. The personality, the little aspects that make them who they are, and yes, that includes what they look like. And what a character looks like is how we see them - comics are a visual medium after all. it's no different from an iconic superhero design like the \S/ or the Spider-Man suit. It becomes part of the iconography of the character. Superman is a white guy, Spider-Man is a white guy, Cyclops is a white guy. It is what is, man.

 

[Marvel united]

I don't recall anyone saying all X-Men have to be minorities. That seems like a strawman to me than something anyone here genuinely said.





The difference with the X-Men is that it's almost unintentional that most of the O5 were white. It was a book aimed at persecuted readers, but it came out when segregation was a thing and Marvel as a company was just taking off. It made more marketing sense to make them white but had that not been an issue, there's no way most of the O5 would have been white. In this case it would be more of a race 'correction' than a race swap, which I wouldn't say about the Avengers.

The other difference is that Claremont's run (where X-Men as we know it starts) was considered multi-ethnic by 1975 standards. It was literally considered groundbreaking at the time to have a team of mostly non-traditional Americans. Had Claremont written X-Men today, it would have been groundbreaking by 2018 standards.

Just a couple of pages ago, we were arguing about why Cyclops and others can't be race swapped. And you yourself said they need to limit who joins the X-Men based on whether they're white or not to keep the team diverse, so yeah- I'm pretty sure that's where that argument was going.

So now we're saying that Jack Kirby drew the X-Men the way he did by 'accident'? and it's a flaw that needs to be corrected? Really?

 

[Shikamaru]

Just a couple of pages ago, we were arguing about why Cyclops and others can't be race swapped. And you yourself said they need to limit who joins the X-Men based on whether they're white or not to keep the team diverse, so yeah- I'm pretty sure that's where that argument was going.

Exactly, to keep the team diverse. That means including white characters too.

I mean, if you're interpreting "there should be less white characters" as "there should be no white characters", I don't know what to say to that.

So now we're saying that Jack Kirby drew the X-Men the way he did by 'accident'? and it's a flaw that needs to be corrected? Really?

Don't be snippy dude, you know what I meant by 'accident'. Do you really think all five of the O5 would still be white had the time and marketing not been problems? There's no way.

 

[Havok83]

The difference with the X-Men is that it's almost unintentional that most of the O5 were white. It was a book aimed at persecuted readers, but it came out when segregation was a thing and Marvel as a company was just taking off. It made more marketing sense to make them white but had that not been an issue, there's no way most of the O5 would have been white. In this case it would be more of a race 'correction' than a race swap, which I wouldn't say about the Avengers.

The other difference is that Claremont's run (where X-Men as we know it starts) was considered multi-ethnic by 1975 standards. It was literally considered groundbreaking at the time to have a team of mostly non-traditional Americans. Had Claremont written X-Men today, it would have been groundbreaking by 2018 standards.

Who is the persecuted readers? Black people? That was not the demographic back in the 60s. Stan Lee was not pitched or aimed at drawing in non-white readers. Diversity comes in more forms than just race. There's gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation. A team of Jean, Scott, Iceman, Storm, Jubilee (or Psylocke) and Colossus would be diverse without having to change anyone's race

People bringing up Claremont is kind of ironic. Lein Wein and Dave Cockrum created the ANAD international team. Claremont came on and almost immediately killed off the Native American and got rid of the Japanese character. He then got rid of Banshee and every recruit up through Jubilee in 1989 was white. He did better with the New Mutants, but Jubilee was the only non-white X-men he created in that 17 year run and that doesnt include the problematic race swap he did with Psylocke (which was controversial considering he had done that with Tom Corsi and Sharon Carter)

 

[Marvel united]

Exactly, to keep the team diverse. That means including white characters too.

I mean, if you're interpreting "there should be less white characters" as "there should be no white characters", I don't know what to say to that.

So Scott and Jean stay white then. Case closed, right? Who stays white in your scenario? It makes sense that it be the main members.

Don't be snippy dude, you know what I meant by 'accident'. Do you really think all five of the O5 X-Men would have been white had time and marketing not been issues? There's no way.

Probably not. But we're getting into complicated territory here. It can be argued that it's a METAPHOR for prejudice and not an actual social biopic about our (the minority experience) in America. Therefore it doesn't have to adhere to real life. But you know what? No matter what, somebody would still complain. If the comic sold well, that would tell you what people really think of the book.