Marvel Films MCU X-Men - Part 4

[DrCosmic]

Man, am I tired of people arguing for a retconned-in X-Men continuity. Like, people understand the difference between the kind of backstory that goes in flashbacks and the kind of backstory that you need to experience to fall in love with the character, right? Like, we get the difference between Xavier and Magneto and Logan existing in secret remote locations and random hormone factories in every part of the world developing uncontrolled super powers? Like, we understand that's not at all like a hidden country, right? Right?

The stuff that people grab onto to avoid dealing with what I thought were super-clear lines is interesting. Spider-Man is an established hero... for all of six months, no supervillains fought, hasn't even forged his own identity yet. The jump in population density of mutants is necessary, but it's not necessary for it to present itself before the time frame of the first MCU X-Men movie. It's doesn't make "more" sense if the population jump happens in 1980, in fact, since environment stimulates mutation, it makes much more sense for the mutant population jump to occur after the year 2000, when more people are bombarded by more radiation (communication waves) than ever. No need for magic macguffins, just good old evolution-babble will do.

Can we just start the story at its beginning, y'know, like a good story about people who get their powers with adolescence? Xavier starts a school, we meet the students, his lifelong rival that crippled him, Magneto or Mr. Sinister or Shadow King is back and adventure ensues, as we learn there are dozens DOZENS of mutants all around the world now! After credits SNIKT SNIKT, guess who's coming next time?

My lineup for Uncanny X-Men, all just coming into their own as adults:
Scott Summers (the tactician)
Jean Grey (the protagonist)
Ororo Munroe (the conscience)
Marie D'ancato (the rebel)
Betsy Braddock (the rival)
John Silvercloud (the tech)
Kitty Pryde (the kid)

If you really wanna have some fun, make Scott Latino and original Betsy South Asian. It's not hard... you don't have to figure out a way to retcon in 30-60 years of comics history before the movie starts. Just tell a good story, and good stories start with the interesting action, not the interesting results.

 

[Marvel united]

Man, am I tired of people arguing for a retconned-in X-Men continuity. Like, people understand the difference between the kind of backstory that goes in flashbacks and the kind of backstory that you need to experience to fall in love with the character, right? Like, we get the difference between Xavier and Magneto and Logan existing in secret remote locations and random hormone factories in every part of the world developing uncontrolled super powers? Like, we understand that's not at all like a hidden country, right? Right?

The stuff that people grab onto to avoid dealing with what I thought were super-clear lines is interesting. Spider-Man is an established hero... for all of six months, no supervillains fought, hasn't even forged his own identity yet. The jump in population density of mutants is necessary, but it's not necessary for it to present itself before the time frame of the first MCU X-Men movie. It's doesn't make "more" sense if the population jump happens in 1980, in fact, since environment stimulates mutation, it makes much more sense for the mutant population jump to occur after the year 2000, when more people are bombarded by more radiation (communication waves) than ever. No need for magic macguffins, just good old evolution-babble will do.

Can we just start the story at its beginning, y'know, like a good story about people who get their powers with adolescence? Xavier starts a school, we meet the students, his lifelong rival that crippled him, Magneto or Mr. Sinister or Shadow King is back and adventure ensues, as we learn there are dozens DOZENS of mutants all around the world now! After credits SNIKT SNIKT, guess who's coming next time?

My lineup for Uncanny X-Men, all just coming into their own as adults:
Scott Summers (the tactician)
Jean Grey (the protagonist)
Ororo Munroe (the conscience)
Marie D'ancato (the rebel)
Betsy Braddock (the rival)
John Silvercloud (the tech)
Kitty Pryde (the kid)

If you really wanna have some fun, make Scott Latino and original Betsy South Asian. It's not hard... you don't have to figure out a way to retcon in 30-60 years of comics history before the movie starts. Just tell a good story, and good stories start with the interesting action, not the interesting results.

Pretty much what I've been trying to communicate this entire time. Trying to retcon in the entire history of the franchise (from the 60s Kirby/Lee run all the way to 1991 Claremont/Lee) into the MCU is too cluttered and convoluted and it make no sense. The most simple way to approach this property is pretty obvious. Start close to the beginning and go from there.

 

[DrCosmic]

Pretty much what I've been trying to communicate this entire time. Trying to retcon in the entire history of the franchise (from the 60s Kirby/Lee run all the way to 1991 Claremont/Lee) into the MCU is too cluttered and convoluted and it make no sense. The most simple way to approach this property is pretty obvious. Start close to the beginning and go from there.

I'm thinking about this. The people who want to do all these acrobatics aren't insane. I have a theory... I think to a lot of X-Men fans, most of the X-Men ARE Professor X in the sense that their core adventures being over is part of the premise of the X-Men to them. As long as Wolverine is new to the X-Men, it is "the beginning." I think when you view Jean Grey or Scott Summers or Ororo Munroe as a protagonist you see the pointlessness in starting them off as experienced badass action heroes. But for a whole generation of people who came up under Singer, the X-Men's adventures being backstory is the norm. To them, Cyclops and Storm are just Baron Mordo and Wong. Not characters who we journey with, but those whose less interesting adventures are already established to help THE X-Man on their epic journey from savage to savior. To such fans, the X-Men are like the Guardians of the Galaxy, where the theme is outcasts drawn together, and thus their individuals transformations aren't needed for the story or part of the premise, they can start as adults with random experiences, as long as the chief outcast brings them together.

There's also, I suspect some disinterest in retreading a story that they know so well, similar to what some folks felt about a High School Peter Parker pre-Homecoming. If you fall in love with a mature version of the character, then seeing them immature feels like personally losing something, and some people still have a sore spot with his sidekicking to Tony. I think some people just want to see Scott toe to toe with Cap, and don't much care what story permutations they need to get that kind of validation of how much time and energy they have personally invested in the X-Mythos already. If there's any precedence for the audience accepting anything similar, no need to examine why that worked in that case, any reason to get to their favorite part o the mythos is enough.

At least that's my theory, just trying to understand why people don't say "Oh, a story about people who gain their powers as teenagers? I guess this starts while they're teenagers."

 

[Marvel united]

I'm thinking about this. The people who want to do all these acrobatics aren't insane. I have a theory... I think to a lot of X-Men fans, most of the X-Men ARE Professor X in the sense that their core adventures being over is part of the premise of the X-Men to them. As long as Wolverine is new to the X-Men, it is "the beginning." I think when you view Jean Grey or Scott Summers or Ororo Munroe as a protagonist you see the pointlessness in starting them off as experienced badass action heroes. But for a whole generation of people who came up under Singer, the X-Men's adventures being backstory is the norm. To them, Cyclops and Storm are just Baron Mordo and Wong. Not characters who we journey with, but those whose less interesting adventures are already established to help THE X-Man on their epic journey from savage to savior. To such fans, the X-Men are like the Guardians of the Galaxy, where the theme is outcasts drawn together, and thus their individuals transformations aren't needed for the story or part of the premise, they can start as adults with random experiences, as long as the chief outcast brings them together.

There's also, I suspect some disinterest in retreading a story that they know so well, similar to what some folks felt about a High School Peter Parker pre-Homecoming. If you fall in love with a mature version of the character, then seeing them immature feels like personally losing something, and some people still have a sore spot with his sidekicking to Tony. I think some people just want to see Scott toe to toe with Cap, and don't much care what story permutations they need to get that kind of validation of how much time and energy they have personally invested in the X-Mythos already. If there's any precedence for the audience accepting anything similar, no need to examine why that worked in that case, any reason to get to their favorite part o the mythos is enough.

At least that's my theory, just trying to understand why people don't say "Oh, a story about people who gain their powers as teenagers? I guess this starts while they're teenagers."

You're right but there's one thing missing. I think it's more so that most of the core X-Men fans grew up with the 90s TAS/Claremont era of X-Men where Scott, Ororo and Jean WERE badass action heroes from the start. And the early X-Men movies kinda solidified that as the ideal image of the X-Men by completely skipping over the early adventures of the team in favor of seasoned adults who had already been around for 13 years when we met them.

It is sometimes frustrating to me that there is no compromise over the MCU adapting 90s Claremont. I think what most people seem to forget/ignore is the fact that the X-Men being seasoned badassses in the 90s was EARNED. The team at that point had been splintered into two groups. The X-Men (Storm, Jubilee, Forge, Wolverine, Polaris, Gambit, Psylocke) and the Original 5 now called X-Factor. This had been the status quo for 5 years. The Shadow king takes over the world, enveloping it with hate and causing mass hysteria. It took Charles losing his legs again, the Shadow King destroying Muir Island and Legion going braindead to bring both groups together again to save the world. It was a huge triumph moment and the students of Charles Xavier: the two groups of mutants -- then formed into the biggest roster of X-Men the franchise has ever bolstered:


This moment was the result of decades of character development, buildup and rotating characters.

Just look at how many stages Jean went through to get to this point


I guess I'm a rare case because when the 90s series debuted, I was only 4 years old. My dad was an advid comic reader who just so happened to have issues from the early 60s X-Men adventures. And I loved them when I was very young. By the time X-Men: Evolution came out (which focused on teenagers) I was in the sweet spot age demographic (10 years old) to be engaged with the show. I was also reading Ultimate X-Men in the early 2000s which focused on young adult X-Men. So I've been exposed to many different eras and versions of X-Men in my childhood which is why I'm less hostile to the idea of a young team.


The idea that Cyclops should be on the same level as Captain America is completely misinformed and wrong. First of all, Cyclops has never been a peer of Captain America. Maybe he was in Astonishing X-Men but he certainly wasn't in the 60s-80s. Steve was still calling Scott "kid" during the Secret War crossover event in 1984. The X-Men were all still in their 20s in the early to mid 80s. They were NEVER peers of the Avengers. The reality is, the X-Men are and always have been -- peers of Spider-Man/Peter Parker. Scott and Jean were literally the same age as Peter and they both matured through the decades in unison. Scott and Peter were getting married around the same time. In Giant-Sized (1976) the X-Men minus Wolverine and Banshee were all young adults. I don't think the majority of fans realize this.

And with all that in mind, we get to the MCU adaptation. We have a chance to really tell the story of the X-Men the RIGHT way. Look at the way Marvel has handled ALL of their mainline franchises



Every single one starts their hero as the unfinished article. "But Spider-Man didn't have an origin story!" No, but he had a pseudo origin story. He was introduced as a 15 year old rookie with ZERO experience. Before he was Peter Parker: husband to Mary Jane Watson, science teacher at Midtown High-School with a masters in Science and technology -- he was Peter Parker: a 15 year old nerdy HS student dealing with homework, trying to get a girl to go to prom with him. "What about T'Challa!" Yes, he did. T'Challa's father: T'Chaka was killed in Civil War which set him on the path to assuming the throne of Wakanda. This is literally what happened in T'Challa's origin story except it happened much earlier in his life. "But Hawkeye and Black Widow" What about them? They started in the MCU as they did in the comics. Trained assassins. What did the X-Men start off as? "The Strangest Teenagers of All". What did Spider-Man start off as? Hmm

Now let's draw the logical conclusion to what makes the most sense for the MCU. What is the easiest way to incorporate the X-Men without a bunch of mental gymnastics to explain why a group of immensely powerful 30 year old mutants who have been a team since they were teens, failed to make their presence known on countless occasions when they were needed most? A team of young people who are assembled in 2019-2020 MCU. Who have never faced a true threat, who are still wet behind the ears. Who still have a looooong journey to go ahead of them. A team that stands in the shadow of the Avengers, not side-by-side with them.

 

[Frankeh]

I see this is becoming an echo chamber again.

 

[BoredGuy]

You're right but there's one thing missing. I think it's more so that most of the core X-Men fans grew up with the 90s TAS/Claremont era of X-Men where Scott, Ororo and Jean WERE badass action heroes from the start. And the early X-Men movies kinda solidified that as the ideal image of the X-Men by completely skipping over the early adventures of the team in favor of seasoned adults who had already been around for 13 years when we met them.

It is sometimes frustrating to me that there is no compromise over the MCU adapting 90s Claremont. I think what most people seem to forget/ignore is the fact that the X-Men being seasoned badassses in the 90s was EARNED. The team at that point had been splintered into two groups. The X-Men (Storm, Jubilee, Forge, Wolverine, Polaris, Gambit, Psylocke) and the Original 5 now called X-Factor. This had been the status quo for 5 years. The Shadow king takes over the world, enveloping it with hate and causing mass hysteria. It took Charles losing his legs again, the Shadow King destroying Muir Island and Legion going braindead to bring both groups together again to save the world. It was a huge triumph moment and the students of Charles Xavier: the two groups of mutants -- then formed into the biggest roster of X-Men the franchise has ever bolstered:

This moment was the result of decades of character development, buildup and rotating characters.

Just look at how many stages Jean went through to get to this point

I guess I'm a rare case because when the 90s series debuted, I was only 4 years old. My dad was an advid comic reader who just so happened to have issues from the early 60s X-Men adventures. And I loved them when I was very young. By the time X-Men: Evolution came out (which focused on teenagers) I was in the sweet spot age demographic (10 years old) to be engaged with the show. I was also reading Ultimate X-Men in the early 2000s which focused on young adult X-Men. So I've been exposed to many different eras and versions of X-Men in my childhood which is why I'm less hostile to the idea of a young team.

The idea that Cyclops should be on the same level as Captain America is completely misinformed and wrong. First of all, Cyclops has never been a peer of Captain America. Maybe he was in Astonishing X-Men but he certainly wasn't in the 60s-80s. Steve was still calling Scott "kid" during the Secret War crossover event in 1984. The X-Men were all still in their 20s in the early to mid 80s. They were NEVER peers of the Avengers. The reality is, the X-Men are and always have been -- peers of Spider-Man/Peter Parker. Scott and Jean were literally the same age as Peter and they both matured through the decades in unison. Scott and Peter were getting married around the same time. In Giant-Sized (1976) the X-Men minus Wolverine and Banshee were all young adults. I don't think the majority of fans realize this.

And with all that in mind, we get to the MCU adaptation. We have a chance to really tell the story of the X-Men the RIGHT way. Look at the way Marvel has handled ALL of their mainline franchises

Every single one starts their hero as the unfinished article. "But Spider-Man didn't have an origin story!" No, but he had a pseudo origin story. He was introduced as a 15 year old rookie with ZERO experience. Before he was Peter Parker: husband to Mary Jane Watson, science teacher at Midtown High-School with a masters in Science and technology -- he was Peter Parker: a 15 year old nerdy HS student dealing with homework, trying to get a girl to go to prom with him. "What about T'Challa!" Yes, he did. T'Challa's father: T'Chaka was killed in Civil War which set him on the path to assuming the throne of Wakanda. This is literally what happened in T'Challa's origin story except it happened much earlier in his life. "But Hawkeye and Black Widow" What about them? They started in the MCU as they did in the comics. Trained assassins. What did the X-Men start off as? "The Strangest Teenagers of All". What did Spider-Man start off as? Hmm

Now let's draw the logical conclusion to what makes the most sense for the MCU. What is the easiest way to incorporate the X-Men without a bunch of mental gymnastics to explain why a group of immensely powerful 30 year old mutants who have been a team since they were teens, failed to make their presence known on countless occasions when they were needed most? A team of young people who are assembled in 2019-2020 MCU. Who have never faced a true threat, who are still wet behind the ears. Who still have a looooong journey to go ahead of them. A team that stands in the shadow of the Avengers, not side-by-side with them.

I get what you're saying, you make some good and valid points, but I still just disagree on that direction

Mainly because the O5 are-- and kind of always have been-- boring... X-Men was cancelled before Giant Size X-Men, and that feeling of the giant-size team being the true start of X-men has kinda stuck around ever since... They're more diverse in race and nationality, as well as in personality, and they have much cooler power sets outside of Iceman. So the O5 are actually well-suited, imo, to be the [slightly] elder X-men who serve that function like Wong or Mordo.

If Colossus and Nightcrawler are 17, say, then Bobby should be 21, Hank Jean and Warren could be 23, and Scott 24. They could still have not yet faced Magneto or done any major missions. Scott doesn't have to be a straight peer to Cap, but he should be able to stand toe to toe and argue with Cap (by the sequel, at least), and we respect him as a nearly-equally seasoned leader. If Cap and Spidey got in each other's face right now, I couldn't take Peter all that seriously. And part of that is just the teenage factor, there are very few teen actors on this planet who could give Scott the right gravitas he needs. Technically Cap was supposed to be 21 in the first movie, but they got an older actor because they had to.

The other thing that would concern me about making them all teens is the tendency for those types of movies to try to be "cool" and make pop-culture references and be all #woke. X-Men should absolutely reflect the world outside, but it'll annoy the hell outta me if they're making jokes about snapchat and doing the flossing dance. (I know, I'm exaggerating and I'm sure Marvel wouldn't do that, but them studio execs, sometimes think that's what "the kids these days" want) I don't want some dark and gloomy DOFP style movie, but it should be quite a lot more somber than Spidey. Spider-man and X-Men comics have very different tones and the movies should be the same. If they make "Teen X-Men" I'd have concern it would be too similar in tone to Homecoming.

I dont know, I get where you're coming from, and part of my issue is just that I never had much love for the O5 (well, I do like Iceman and had a big crush on Jean, and I liked Cyke during Astonishing and into Utopia, but that was about it for him) I didn't grow up with them, so yeah, their comics were just backstory to me. But I get why people who are big O5 fans would want to see their origin play out.

But, also, if you think Marvel's gunna wait to bring in Wolverine, you crazy

 

[DrCosmic]

I see this is becoming an echo chamber again.

What can be done?

I get what you're saying, you make some good and valid points, but I still just disagree on that direction

Mainly because the O5 are-- and kind of always have been-- boring... X-Men was cancelled before Giant Size X-Men, and that feeling of the giant-size team being the true start of X-men has kinda stuck around ever since... They're more diverse in race and nationality, as well as in personality, and they have much cooler power sets outside of Iceman. So the O5 are actually well-suited, imo, to be the [slightly] elder X-men who serve that function like Wong or Mordo.

If Colossus and Nightcrawler are 17, say, then Bobby should be 21, Hank Jean and Warren could be 23, and Scott 24. They could still have not yet faced Magneto or done any major missions. Scott doesn't have to be a straight peer to Cap, but he should be able to stand toe to toe and argue with Cap (by the sequel, at least), and we respect him as a nearly-equally seasoned leader. If Cap and Spidey got in each other's face right now, I couldn't take Peter all that seriously. And part of that is just the teenage factor, there are very few teen actors on this planet who could give Scott the right gravitas he needs. Technically Cap was supposed to be 21 in the first movie, but they got an older actor because they had to.

The other thing that would concern me about making them all teens is the tendency for those types of movies to try to be "cool" and make pop-culture references and be all #woke. X-Men should absolutely reflect the world outside, but it'll annoy the hell outta me if they're making jokes about snapchat and doing the flossing dance. (I know, I'm exaggerating and I'm sure Marvel wouldn't do that, but them studio execs, sometimes think that's what "the kids these days" want) I don't want some dark and gloomy DOFP style movie, but it should be quite a lot more somber than Spidey. Spider-man and X-Men comics have very different tones and the movies should be the same. If they make "Teen X-Men" I'd have concern it would be too similar in tone to Homecoming.

I dont know, I get where you're coming from, and part of my issue is just that I never had much love for the O5 (well, I do like Iceman and had a big crush on Jean, and I liked Cyke during Astonishing and into Utopia, but that was about it for him) I didn't grow up with them, so yeah, their comics were just backstory to me. But I get why people who are big O5 fans would want to see their origin play out.

But, also, if you think Marvel's gunna wait to bring in Wolverine, you crazy

BoredGuy, I get what you're saying, but please slow down. A story about the X-Men starting out around the time they gain their powers doesn't mean those X-Men still have to be the comic book O5. There's no problem not seeing the O5's origin play out. The post you're quoting doesn't ask for that at all. Every MCU team has been changed up from its comics founders, X-Men would be no different. The problem is entering a world where the O5's origin has already played out, that is what doesn't work for the reasons outlined.

The two challenges with making the O5 older are 1) Each of the O5 is someone's favorite superhero of all time, so handling them like Wong or Mordo alienates many X-Men fans and shows a lack of knowledge of the characters' potential. 2) They get their powers ~16 years of age, and so if we meet them at 24, we have to explain what they've done with their powers for 8 years - as long as the Avengers have been around - in a way that syncs with the film's themes and the previous events of the MCU. So while it means gravitas has to be earned, the same way Cap's was, it doesn't mean that the actors would be played by teenagers, they'd be played by older actors, like all MCU teenagers are. Further, they could be 17-19 instead of 15 like Peter, and thus, set up a different tone, though admittedly, I don't understand that tone. Spider-Man and X-Men comics have covered similar tones, from soapy and campy to trippy and dire and the same people who didn't have Peter being 'too cool' will be in charge of the X-Men, and honestly, Homecoming is similar in tone to nearly every other MCU film and I doubt X-Men will be much different from all other MCU films in tone no matter how old anyone is.

My suggestion, get the best six X-Men to introduce the world of mutants, and meet them at 17-19 on their first adventure as Xavier brings them together. Cast a Scott who has gravitas in comparison to his peers, and let him earn being able to stand up to whoever is left in the MCU after Endgame.

I get that you're only interested in Astonishing Scott, and that's the Scott you want and the only Scott you think should be seen, but that Scott just doesn't fit with a first X-Men movie. Great character, but he's HORRIBLE for introducing a new X-Men continuity.

 

[BoredGuy]

I dunno, I just feel like y'all are kinda overthinking the "where have the X-Men been?" thing
if they were teens finding their powers around the time of Avengers (or rather, around the time of Civil War by time these movies get off the ground, lets be honest) that doesn't have to mean they've been battling supervillains the whole time... they were students, being trained in a secretive private school... now they're adults ready to take on the responsibility of saving the planet

but I get what you're saying about people's favorite characters, it's a common thing when you hear interviews with comics writers that they say "X-Men fans are crazy, every single character has a devoted fanbase.... change Strong Guy's glasses and you'll piss off a few thousand people.." So I get that some people want to see that origin story play out

its just not my favorite idea, but if they do go that way, I get it, and I trust Marvel Studios to do it better than even the comics did

ps. I disagree on the tone thing though... yes X-Men have had light-hearted stories and Spidey has had darkness, but they still typically have different styles and levels of seriousness... I always liked X-Men for its more mature and serious nature, I've never read it for laughs

 

[Abudefduf]

1) Each of the O5 is someone's favorite superhero of all time

I agree with everything you said here except for this part. Let's not kid ourselves, Angel is no one's favorite superhero.

 

[Marvel united]

I get what you're saying, you make some good and valid points, but I still just disagree on that direction

Mainly because the O5 are-- and kind of always have been-- boring... X-Men was cancelled before Giant Size X-Men, and that feeling of the giant-size team being the true start of X-men has kinda stuck around ever since... They're more diverse in race and nationality, as well as in personality, and they have much cooler power sets outside of Iceman. So the O5 are actually well-suited, imo, to be the [slightly] elder X-men who serve that function like Wong or Mordo.

Well, for starters - the "O5" of the MCU don't have to be the same as the comics. Several adaptations of the original run have started the X-Men as teens and changed the starting roster of Xavier's First Class:

If Colossus and Nightcrawler are 17, say, then Bobby should be 21, Hank Jean and Warren could be 23, and Scott 24. They could still have not yet faced Magneto or done any major missions. Scott doesn't have to be a straight peer to Cap, but he should be able to stand toe to toe and argue with Cap (by the sequel, at least), and we respect him as a nearly-equally seasoned leader. If Cap and Spidey got in each other's face right now, I couldn't take Peter all that seriously. And part of that is just the teenage factor, there are very few teen actors on this planet who could give Scott the right gravitas he needs. Technically Cap was supposed to be 21 in the first movie, but they got an older actor because they had to.

You still have to explain where the X-Men have been in the past 7-8 years. That's 8 years of relationship development, 8 years of character fulfillment, 8 years of potential investment in Scott becoming a "seasoned leader". They have been around as long as the Avengers. The only difference is, all of the character development and character defining moments happened off-screen, in the past. Whereas with the Avengers, Marvel made sure to follow the team through every step of their journey and not skip several years to "get to the interesting part". Look at all that has happened in the 8 years that the Avengers have been a team. A LOT.

I would start the X-Men off the same X-Men the same they did in Ultimate and Giant-Sized. Teens/young adults on the cusps of adulthood. Bobby is 16, Piotr is 17, Jean and Kurt are 18, Scott is 19, Hank is 20 and Storm is 23. They've all graduated HS minus Bobby so that automatically sets up a completely different tone and different themes than Homecoming. They've been a team for 2 years when we meet them. Scott is confident in his ability to lead and he can go toe to toe with any of the Avengers as he did in Ultimate. But he's not some hardended, battle-scarred veteran. He THINKS he knows everything but he doesn't and he still has a lot to learn about life and lots of trial and tribulation ahead of him that will test his propensity as a leader and a hero.

The other thing that would concern me about making them all teens is the tendency for those types of movies to try to be "cool" and make pop-culture references and be all #woke. X-Men should absolutely reflect the world outside, but it'll annoy the hell outta me if they're making jokes about snapchat and doing the flossing dance. (I know, I'm exaggerating and I'm sure Marvel wouldn't do that, but them studio execs, sometimes think that's what "the kids these days" want) I don't want some dark and gloomy DOFP style movie, but it should be quite a lot more somber than Spidey. Spider-man and X-Men comics have very different tones and the movies should be the same. If they make "Teen X-Men" I'd have concern it would be too similar in tone to Homecoming.

Homecoming didn't have constant pop culture references and Peter being on his phone 24/7. Some "woke" moments are kind of inevitable as it's the X-Men and the X-Men are all about social justice. A movie that feels in-tune with what it's like to be a teenager in the 2020s is a forgone conclusion but it all depends on the execution. They don't have to beat it over our heads, they certainly didn't with Homecoming.

What should the tone of the X-Men be, exactly? They've had a variety of tones in the comics. In many ways, both Spider-Man and the X-Men are soap operas. But as you know, there are a variety of different soap operas that all deal with different themes. In terms of content, The X-Men will -- by nature -- be different from Spider-Man regardless of their age because it's going to be covering completely different subject matter. The experience of being a persecuted young mutant fighting for the freedom of a race of people who hate your guts for even existing, is going to be very different from the experience of a HS student with powers dealing with otherwise normal problems (with the occasional super villain fight). A teenage mutant will not have "normal" everyday problems to deal with. They both have a completely different perspective on life and very different stories to tell.

I dont know, I get where you're coming from, and part of my issue is just that I never had much love for the O5 (well, I do like Iceman and had a big crush on Jean, and I liked Cyke during Astonishing and into Utopia, but that was about it for him) I didn't grow up with them, so yeah, their comics were just backstory to me. But I get why people who are big O5 fans would want to see their origin play out.

But the fact of the matter is, those comics were NOT backstory. They were past history. They happened in real time not as part of Scott's "origin story". The Scott we meet in Astonishing is the result of 41 years of history for the character. And the entire Marvel Universe had changed at that point. I get feeling a little bit alienated by the prospects of a young Scott but it's a necessary evil. Scott has to go on a hero's journey to get to that point the same way he did in the comics. We all know where this path leads him but in order for that part of his journey to MATTER and have weight, we must be invested in the character so that a 160 can have payoff. That's why when Cap showed up like this:

It mattered to the audience. Because we had seen him start off from the beginning as an idealistic, patriotic young man who believes in his country. We followed him through every stage (which all happened in the span of 7 years) and we saw his ideals tested and we saw him turn his back on his own government as the world completely changed around him. It was a COMPLETE character arc that had emotional payoff:

So why shouldn't the X-Men get the same treatment? Why shouldn't Cyclops?

Regarding Scott being able to stare Cap head on, It entirely hinges on who is cast and what kind of screen presence they bring. Sheridan turned a lot of people off on a teenage Scott Summers because he was completely miscast. If you cast someone like Ansel Elgort, KJ Apa or even Lucas Hedges. Mature young actors who can literally stand shoulder to shoulder with Evans as Cap, it works perfectly. Scott Is Cap WITHOUT the experience he has. He has to become that and that journey will undoubtedly mirror Cap.

But, also, if you think Marvel's gunna wait to bring in Wolverine, you crazy

I guess I'm crazy because I think he's not coming until the second movie. Logan has appeared in every single X-Men movie to date. The character is overexposed and the key to differentiation is to not reuse the flagship element of the previous franchise which was Wolverine.

He can be introduced in somebody else's movie first so he can exist in the MCU. But he needs to sit out at least ONE film so we can have proper development for core X-Men not named James Howlett.

 

[BoredGuy]

I hear ya, I hear ya

Maybe it's just that I really f***ing hate Cyclops

lol...kidding...kinda
#TeamWolvie

 

[Raiden]

Getting a Scott Summers like the leader he is in the comics is one of the main reasons why I'm excited about Feige getting an opportunity to introduce the X-Men in MCU; I want the magic elixir they used on Steve Rogers/Capt. America to be applied on Cyclops as well. We need a Cyclops who isn't just a rival for Jean's affection and a straight man to Wolverine's lone wolf personality and whose death in X3 affected nobody since he was just a throwaway character.

 

[DrCosmic]

I dunno, I just feel like y'all are kinda overthinking the "where have the X-Men been?" thing
if they were teens finding their powers around the time of Avengers (or rather, around the time of Civil War by time these movies get off the ground, lets be honest) that doesn't have to mean they've been battling supervillains the whole time... they were students, being trained in a secretive private school... now they're adults ready to take on the responsibility of saving the planet

but I get what you're saying about people's favorite characters, it's a common thing when you hear interviews with comics writers that they say "X-Men fans are crazy, every single character has a devoted fanbase.... change Strong Guy's glasses and you'll piss off a few thousand people.." So I get that some people want to see that origin story play out

its just not my favorite idea, but if they do go that way, I get it, and I trust Marvel Studios to do it better than even the comics did

ps. I disagree on the tone thing though... yes X-Men have had light-hearted stories and Spidey has had darkness, but they still typically have different styles and levels of seriousness... I always liked X-Men for its more mature and serious nature, I've never read it for laughs

I hear you, but I think the overthinking is yours. When people finish being trained at private schools are now adults, those people are 17-19, not 21-24. Elite military training takes one year, not eight. A lot of the problems you talk about are kinda what ifs as well. And I'm not sure you're hearing the issue, again it's not about wanting to see everything play out, it's about not wanting to see great storylines treated as a footnote or one line of dialogue. Strong Guy cosmetic jokes aside, Cyclops' fanbase is so strong people are still pitching about what was done with his character arc and capabilities twenty years after X-Men 2000. Some of the X-Men other than Wolverine are *really* important, and have been, historically, more popular than Captain America. For those characters, those fans want a similar respect. They want people brought into Storm fandom the way people were brought into Scarlet Witch fandom, and they know the MCU can do it, and there the only ones who might care about these characters in a way Fox didn't.

And we just gonna disagree on Spidey's tone. I haven't read a single Spidey event for laughs.

I agree with everything you said here except for this part. Let's not kid ourselves, Angel is no one's favorite superhero.

Touche

Regarding Scott being able to stare Cap head on, It entirely hinges on who is cast and what kind of screen presence they bring. Sheridan turned a lot of people off on a teenage Scott Summers because he was completely miscast. If you cast someone like Ansel Elgort, KJ Apa or even Lucas Hedges. Mature young actors who can literally stand shoulder to shoulder with Evans as Cap, it works perfectly. Scott Is Cap WITHOUT the experience he has. He has to become that and that journey will undoubtedly mirror Cap.

So, I basically agree with you, but you do go pretty long, it's hard to respond to. I do have a question for you, anyone really:

Who is the protagonist of your X-Men story?

For me it's Jean, for Singer it was Wolverine. It sounds like for you Cyclops is the protagonist. And by protagonist I mean: who leads the action and makes the most change in the course of the story.

I hear ya, I hear ya

Maybe it's just that I really f***ing hate Cyclops

lol...kidding...kinda
#TeamWolvie

Yeah, Cyclops is my favorite, by far, from the 90s cartoon onwards. I don't mind Wolvie, I just don't like it when he is effectively the X-Men by himself. He feels forced, crammed down my throat and I can't stand it. Now if Wolverine is in a Wolverine movie, then hey, there's no need to disrespect other X-Men by making Wolverine the most capable and most important all the time.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah, Cyclops is my favorite, by far, from the 90s cartoon onwards. I don't mind Wolvie, I just don't like it when he is effectively the X-Men by himself. He feels forced, crammed down my throat and I can't stand it. Now if Wolverine is in a Wolverine movie, then hey, there's no need to disrespect other X-Men by making Wolverine the most capable and most important all the time.

I do agree with ya there
Even as a huge Wolverine fan, he took too big a role in the Fox films, and was spread too thin in the comics... he works best as the violent and uncontrollable team member, and then his solos can give him more nuance... going back to Astonishing X-Men, that was probably my favorite X-Men Wolvie as well... he was grumpy and somewhat uncomfortable being a teacher and proper "superhero"... then his solos can be more like Uncanny X-Force Wolvie or his solo books from around that time, I would love to see a "Red Right Hand" story get adapted
I prefer Storm or Jean or even Kitty as the leaders to Scott, but I admit Wolverine as X-Men team leader is weird and doesn't usually work so well

 

[EnDz0n3]

Regarding Scott being able to stare Cap head on, It entirely hinges on who is cast and what kind of screen presence they bring. Sheridan turned a lot of people off on a teenage Scott Summers because he was completely miscast. If you cast someone like Ansel Elgort, KJ Apa or even Lucas Hedges. Mature young actors who can literally stand shoulder to shoulder with Evans as Cap, it works perfectly. Scott Is Cap WITHOUT the experience he has. He has to become that and that journey will undoubtedly mirror Cap.

KJ Apa? Lucas Hedges? Come on man.

 

[Marvel united]

So, I basically agree with you, but you do go pretty long, it's hard to respond to. I do have a question for you, anyone really:

Who is the protagonist of your X-Men story?

For me it's Jean, for Singer it was Wolverine. It sounds like for you Cyclops is the protagonist. And by protagonist I mean: who leads the action and makes the most change in the course of the story.

Definitely Scott. I'd want him to be at the center of the story and for his actions to be a major determining factor in how the narrative proceeds. For instance, as they are on their way back from a mission (in the Blackbird), they spot commotion on the ground within the hundred-person strong group of people marching against "Mutie rights". He orders Hank/Ororo to "Turn the jet around and help these people". The X-Men end up saving a bunch of anti-mutant protesters (from a mutant extremist group like the Acolytes) They save these people from evil mutants and the media press shows up, wanting to know who the X-Men are. And we get this:

The first time the X-Men go public [The media plays that image all over the news]

Keep in mind that Scott has basically jeopardized the X-Men's anonymity in order to save a group of people who hates his guts simply for being. And this is a character defining moment for Scott because this tells the audience just what kind of person he is. Selfless heroism that echoes Captain America. The type of guy who WOULDN'T lay down on the wire and let the other guy crawl over him.

Cyclops is my favorite, by far, from the 90s cartoon onwards. I don't mind Wolvie, I just don't like it when he is effectively the X-Men by himself. He feels forced, crammed down my throat and I can't stand it. Now if Wolverine is in a Wolverine movie, then hey, there's no need to disrespect other X-Men by making Wolverine the most capable and most important all the time.

That's pretty much where I stand on the issue as well. I've had my fill of Logan. Don't get me wrong, I love the hairy little bastard but the focus on him since the Singer films across all media is grating.

KJ Apa? Lucas Hedges? Come on man.

KJ Apa was who came to mind first. He plays a really good archetype of what I want Scott to be in Riverdale. Selfless, determined and always in charge




But what's the problem with Hedges? Have you even seen any of the guy's movies? I'm genuinely curious. Because he's being hailed as one of the most talented young actors making their break in Hollywood today. The perfomance he gave in Boy Erased is PERFECT for the type of stoic, serious energy that Scott should have:

One of the best movies ive seen in a long time.

The guy has played some seriously complex characters, which is what Scott should be. And he's also much bigger in stature than Sheridan which is important.

 

[DrCosmic]

I do agree with ya there
Even as a huge Wolverine fan, he took too big a role in the Fox films, and was spread too thin in the comics... he works best as the violent and uncontrollable team member, and then his solos can give him more nuance... going back to Astonishing X-Men, that was probably my favorite X-Men Wolvie as well... he was grumpy and somewhat uncomfortable being a teacher and proper "superhero"... then his solos can be more like Uncanny X-Force Wolvie or his solo books from around that time, I would love to see a "Red Right Hand" story get adapted
I prefer Storm or Jean or even Kitty as the leaders to Scott, but I admit Wolverine as X-Men team leader is weird and doesn't usually work so well

Right! Wolverine is an awesome foil. It happens a lot in fiction, people writers fall in love with their own foils and then try to make them something other than foils. A scene stealer is worthless if every scene is handed to them.Case in point: Jack Sparrow. No matter how awesome an anti-hero is, they need a strong straight man to play off of.

I honestly don't think you can beat Scott in terms of a brilliant tactician, it's practically one of his super powers, but he doesn't necessarily need to lead the movie in order to lead the field team, in my thinking.

The first time the X-Men go public [The media plays that image all over the news]

Keep in mind that Scott has basically jeopardized the X-Men's anonymity in order to save a group of people who hates his guts simply for being. And this is a character defining moment for Scott because this tells the audience just what kind of person he is. Selfless heroism that echoes Captain America. The type of guy who WOULDN'T lay down on the wire and let the other guy crawl over him.

Not that I would mind that, because I am also one who feels Scott's time is long overdue, but that feels strangely close to 24yo Astonishing Scott that 'stands to to toe' and at the same time, Captain America himself. It's doable, of course, that could be something that's built up to, but I would humbly suggest a different protagonist:

Jean is the most X-Men of X-Men, not only the true protege of Charles Xavier: the one first in contact with him who also learns all about her powers directly from his powers, but on top of that her powers most thematically represent the mutant threat of invisible unstoppable invasion and control that's different from the Avengers' more physical threat, and on top of that, her powers also allow her to explore the other characters' storylines as if they were the protagonist, their internal narratives become part of hers naturally because of her out of control empathic abilities. And of all the most top tier X-Men, she is the one who we never see develop on screen. Every time we meet her, even in Apocalypse, she's already pretty much got it together except for this Phoenix thing.

So my take on the film?
Act 1:
Jean as a child meets Xavier pre-opening Titles we meet the bad guy and then and we jump to the inciting incident with her powers wigging out in public exposes mutants, making her the poster child and she gets sent to Xavier's, where she meets the supporting cast which includes OCD blind Scott Summers, pompous British rival Betsy, granola African emotional roller coaster Ororo, reclusive sarcasm factory Marie, and wannabe-pacifist tech guru 'Forge'. 'The O6,' Mix and match X-Men to your liking. They all go out like teens/young adults do, giant Sentinel attacks, they fight, and make the news.
Act 2:
This begins their training in earnest, anti-mutant sentiment rises, they go save an adorable mischeivous little girl named Kitty from a mob. Jean gets to know each of the other teens and helps them through things, going through memories with them sometimes while the anti-mutants are looking for them. Ororo learns to meditate, Betsy becomes friends with Jean, Marie loses it for a bit because she absorbed someone's memories/flight/superstrength, Scott learns to use his OCD to his advantage and gains confidence in his tactical abilities as Jean uses them from his mind to lead the team. Forge embraces the fact that he doesn't want to fight. Kitty stays home to protect Xavier after Betsy is "killed."
Act 3:
They bring the fight to the bad guy who is going to kill some anti-mutant people, and end up fighting both sides at once as Jean Grey learns to master her telepathic abilities and, with Xavier's help, brings the pain to Shadow King/Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Whoever. And if you really have to put Wolverine in there, make him a thrall of Sinister/Shadow King and Jean Grey freeing him part of the climactic battle before he lights off to his own movie and to return for Uncanny 2. Everyone becomes the hero they're meant to be, they become the team they'er meant to be, we get to see into everyone's life and we get a fresh new take on the X-Men that happens to tie into the latest comics.
Let me stop, I'm only gonna make myself disappointed.

 

[Marvel united]

Not that I would mind that, because I am also one who feels Scott's time is long overdue, but that feels strangely close to 24yo Astonishing Scott that 'stands to to toe' and at the same time, Captain America himself. It's doable, of course, that could be something that's built up to, but I would humbly suggest a different protagonist:

Well, he would still have insecurities. He would still struggle with leading the team as Charles places the burden of responsibility on his shoulders. He wouldn't have everything figured out like Astonishing Scott. He just wouldn't be a shy, timid *****e like Sheridan was in Apocalypse. He would be closer to the First Avenger-circa Cap. Strong-willed and confident but naive in his ambitions - to change how people feel about mutants and to save everybody. Of course, he has to learn that he can't save EVERYBODY (yes, I'd have a member of the X-Men be tragically killed in the climax by a Sentinel echoing Thunderbird being killed early in the Claremont run for disobeying direct orders) and that mutants will never be accepted into society. Not even if they save the world. That being said:

Jean is the most X-Men of X-Men, not only the true protege of Charles Xavier: the one first in contact with him who also learns all about her powers directly from his powers, but on top of that her powers most thematically represent the mutant threat of invisible unstoppable invasion and control that's different from the Avengers' more physical threat, and on top of that, her powers also allow her to explore the other characters' storylines as if they were the protagonist, their internal narratives become part of hers naturally because of her out of control empathic abilities. And of all the most top tier X-Men, she is the one who we never see develop on screen. Every time we meet her, even in Apocalypse, she's already pretty much got it together except for this Phoenix thing.

So my take on the film?
Act 1:
Jean as a child meets Xavier pre-opening Titles we meet the bad guy and then and we jump to the inciting incident with her powers wigging out in public exposes mutants, making her the poster child and she gets sent to Xavier's, where she meets the supporting cast which includes OCD blind Scott Summers, pompous British rival Betsy, granola African emotional roller coaster Ororo, reclusive sarcasm factory Marie, and wannabe-pacifist tech guru 'Forge'. 'The O6,' Mix and match X-Men to your liking. They all go out like teens/young adults do, giant Sentinel attacks, they fight, and make the news.
Act 2:
This begins their training in earnest, anti-mutant sentiment rises, they go save an adorable mischeivous little girl named Kitty from a mob. Jean gets to know each of the other teens and helps them through things, going through memories with them sometimes while the anti-mutants are looking for them. Ororo learns to meditate, Betsy becomes friends with Jean, Marie loses it for a bit because she absorbed someone's memories/flight/superstrength, Scott learns to use his OCD to his advantage and gains confidence in his tactical abilities as Jean uses them from his mind to lead the team. Forge embraces the fact that he doesn't want to fight. Kitty stays home to protect Xavier after Betsy is "killed."
Act 3:
They bring the fight to the bad guy who is going to kill some anti-mutant people, and end up fighting both sides at once as Jean Grey learns to master her telepathic abilities and, with Xavier's help, brings the pain to Shadow King/Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Whoever. And if you really have to put Wolverine in there, make him a thrall of Sinister/Shadow King and Jean Grey freeing him part of the climactic battle before he lights off to his own movie and to return for Uncanny 2. Everyone becomes the hero they're meant to be, they become the team they'er meant to be, we get to see into everyone's life and we get a fresh new take on the X-Men that happens to tie into the latest comics.
Let me stop, I'm only gonna make myself disappointed.

This is REALLY good. This Is perfect for a modern reimagining of the X-Men and really taking the story back to it's roots. Making Jean the protagonist and honing in on what it means to be a mutant, a teenager and an outcast. Love the idea of having a quiet scene in the second act where Jean helps each member tap into their memories and help them control their powers. After all, the mutant gene is triggered by high-stress situations aka emotions. I see a lot of inspiration from Ultimate X-Men too which will undoubtedly be a big influence on the MCU X-Men with it's reimagined take on several characters.

I get a Breakfast Club vibe from your pitch mixed in with elements from Stand By Me.

I would love if this was the movie we got.

 

[Raiden]

I think the fact that Marvel has made Captain America, a character that people used to think was bored and too much of a boy scout, into a very popular cultural icon, is a major accomplishment. They could have given the leadership mantle to Iron Man or other more "conflicted" characters, but the fact that Cap remains who he is and still be the leader is what I envision Cyclops to be. Scott Summers isn't the problem; the problem is the people like Bryan Singer who doesn't like him and it shows on the big screen.

 

[Lip]

I just want to say something very superficial about Cyclops casting: I want it to be a very, very attractive guy playing him. There, I said it.

 

[EnDz0n3]

I'm sorry MU if you think KJ Apa can stand shoulder to shoulder with Chris Evans, in the acting department or in the leadership role. I really am sorry.

I just want to say something very superficial about Cyclops casting: I want it to be a very, very attractive guy playing him. There, I said it.

Yes and Lucas Hedges it is not. I got you Lip

 

[Lip]

Yes and Lucas Hedges it is not. I got you Lip

Honestly, no shade, I don't find Lucas Hedges, KJ Apa or even Ansel Elgort attractive. So no for them as Scott

(I'm not talking about acting skills, tho).

 

[CaptainWagner]

This is why I really want to see Scott's generations as adults. I want him to be able to fulfill his role of a leader instead of having to wait around for another three movies watching him learn to assert himself. Chris Pine would be a dream choice, in my opinion, but that's not very realistic at this point. I think Oliver Jackson-Cohen (The Haunting of Hill House) could do very well in the part. He has your typical "leader/hero" look and aura, but has a very wide range of vulnerability.

But is he attractive enough for Lip? That's the real question

 

[EnDz0n3]

I gotta admit I've seen pics of him on Pinterest many moons ago and got lost in google images for about 2 1/2 hours.

*swoon*

 

[Lip]

Chris Pine would be a dream choice, in my opinion, but that's not very realistic at this point.

Yes! He was my pick too. But I think he's "too old" now. I mean, I don't want them to be too young, but don't want them to be close to their 40s. Mid 20s, early 30s is the ideal for me.

But is he attractive enough for Lip? That's the real question

LOL

I just googled him. He is... ok.