Metal Gear Solid Saga: Who are The Patriots?

Binker

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Even though we have clues to who they are that could be "solid" or not, from Sons of Liberty to Snake Eater to even the recent Portable Ops, even I'm really up in the air as to who or what they are.

I was playing MGS2 and when the AI Colonel and Rose were talking, at first I thought "well maybe that was an AI that was basically controlled by the Patriots". But then how they talked, I then thought "maybe THEY are the Patriots". Maybe, like SKYNET from the Terminator movie, they created an AI to help them but it ended up becoming self-aware that it ended up becoming the ruler of the country and to avoid the threat of nuclear war on themselves, the government had no choice to but "obey".

But then when you go back to MGS3; we find out about their original name of The Philosophers and that they were a group of leaders of the USA, Russia & China who acted as rulers to the entire world. And what that told me was maybe when the United States got the Legacy and became the Patriots, they became greedy as they were now "kings" and thats why they are what they are now in the games set in the modern world. Just look at the music video of the song "Land of Confusion" by Distrubed. The powerful people could stand in for the Patriots, the big billionaire standing in for their greed, and what happens to the world being the causes of their power. Farfected, I know.

Then theres Portable Ops [and MGS4] which don't really do anything in terms of helping about the "people pulling the strings". Ocelot, at the end, what he says is questionable as we don't know if he is referring to the Patriots or FOXHOUND. If it is the Patriots, then it goes to what maybe the reason why we saw Big Boss on the promotional poster for MGS4. What if Big Boss was brought back after Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake and in turn, HE is the Patriots?

Now I know you're gonna say "that is stupid", but hear me out:

Big Boss created Outer Heaven because of the events of MGS3. He didn't weant soliders to be ruled over and their lives being screwed by greedy purporses by killing their own for BS. Now going back to what the AIs said in MGS2, if Big Boss was behind the Patriots, then the reason why the GW system was to control people's lives might what would be by The Boss and her life and what lead to her decided death. Maybe Big Boss would want everyone, 100% of the world, to be happy. To not go to war and fight, to live. As for the soliders in the military; thats where Metal Gears come in. This alone would make Big Boss a selfish man, but for anyone to eperience the events in Snake Eater, I guess we would too if we had that power. And I know this is crazy. Thats why I called it a theory.

So what do you think the Patriots are? Is it what I said above or something different in your mind?
 
the patriots where around before big boss was, so i dont fink he would be them since imo he would be opposed to them so i dont fink he would become them
 
I hate when a horrible remake to a great song is attributed to an unoriginal band. :cmad:

"Land of Confusion" was not by Disturbed...heck the message the song was trying to portray was not by disturbed. :cmad:
 
Binker said:
But then when you go back to MGS3; we find out about their original name of The Philosophers and that they were a group of leaders of the USA, Russia & China who acted as rulers to the entire world. And what that told me was maybe when the United States got the Legacy and became the Patriots, they became greedy as they were now "kings" and thats why they are what they are now in the games set in the modern world. Just look at the music video of the song "Land of Confusion" by Distrubed. The powerful people could stand in for the Patriots, the big billionaire standing in for their greed, and what happens to the world being the causes of their power. Farfected, I know.

I was referring to this. "Land of Confusion" wasn't by disturbed. It was a horrible remake.:cmad:
 
I stopped trying to understand all of this after MGS2.
 
Gensis did it first. Ya know, phil collins?
 
After playing Portable Ops....

I believe Major Zero is THE Patriot.
 
Man.. I really wish i'd read "After playing Portable Ops...." before I clicked on the spoiler.

:( :( :(
 
hey yo its sean said:
Man.. I really wish i'd read "After playing Portable Ops...." before I clicked on the spoiler.

:( :( :(
Look at the bright side. You still don't know the context that I used to reach that conclusion :csad:.

Again, it's my opinion based on what was said in the game. I could be wrong.
 
Boom said:
After playing Portable Ops....

I believe Major Zero is THE Patriot.

I agree, [BLACKOUT]The Man With the Same Codename as Null[/BLACKOUT] but he'd be dead of old age by Metal Gear Solid 4. He would be a person willing [BLACKOUT]follow Ocelot's request to have Big Boss as a member of the Patriots[/BLACKOUT] on account that they are good friends.

My guess is that Ocelot is also a member of the Patriots and plays the part of an ignorant spy (pretends that he truely doesn't know about things such as the S3 Plan).

I think that Big Boss joined them for a short time, but left the group in disgust and founded Outer Heaven.
 
I remember the Patriots being mentioned in the first Metal Gear Solid,but the whole MGS timeline was changed afterword.At the end of MGS2,you got the idea that The Patriots were a group of powerful politicans that existed in the late 1800`s or early 1900`s.

But in MGS3 The Patriots were a group of people from The United States Of America,the newly formed Soviet Union,and the Republic Of China.The Russian Revolution was in 1918,so this meeting would have to have been taken place in 1919-early 1920`s.

Due to World War I,all 3 countries pooled their resources and created a superfund able to pay for the war seven times over.This was said in MGS3,but at the end of MGS3 the USA obtained the "legacy" from the Soviets,and used this money to advance their country.

But again,the supergroup of politicans mentioned in MGS1 and 2 seem to appear again,since if you do your research.Big Boss created Outer Heaven as his refuage from the world,perhaps to try and escape the reach of The Patriots?

Its hinted that the supergroup still exists,but because of secruity concerns,the President of the USA does not know about this.This is why some of the President`s aids were whispering to each other when Big Boss got his award at the end of MGS3.

Does this group really exist..and is Ocelot a member?
 
Jourmugand said:
I remember the Patriots being mentioned in the first Metal Gear Solid,but the whole MGS timeline was changed afterword.

The Patriots were never mentioned in the first Metal Gear Solid...EVER!

At the end of MGS2,you got the idea that The Patriots were a group of powerful politicans that existed in the late 1800`s or early 1900`s.
Metal Gear Solid 2 states that a group similar to the Patriots existed ever since the United States formed as a country way back in the late 1700's. As for the people who were dead 100 years ago, it's apparent that the data was purposely innacurate (possibly due to Ocelot tampering with something), to throw Solidus, Raiden, Otacon, Liquid, and Snake off the loop and confuse them even more.


But in MGS3 The Patriots were a group of people from The United States Of America,the newly formed Soviet Union,and the Republic Of China.The Russian Revolution was in 1918,so this meeting would have to have been taken place in 1919-early 1920`s.
No, that was the Philosophers, the predecessor group to the Patriots. The Philosophers and the Patriots are two separate groups.


Due to World War I,all 3 countries pooled their resources and created a superfund able to pay for the war seven times over.This was said in MGS3,but at the end of MGS3 the USA obtained the "legacy" from the Soviets,and used this money to advance their country.
No, the United States and the CIA obtained only half of the Philosopher's Legacy at the end of Metal Gear Solid 3. Ocelot and his contact kept the other half until 1970 where Ocelot killed the DCI and took the other half allowing them to form the Patriots. Because the Russian and the Chinese branches of the Philosophers got zilch of the Legacy, they faded out of existence. Because the failure of their planned economy and the continuation of the Cold War, the Soviet Union needed the Philosopher's Legacy to continue financing their military. Without it the Soviet Union eventually crumbled.

Also, the United States did not obtain the Legacy from the Soviets. They stole it from Volgin who was keeping it for himself financing his radical faction within the Soviet Union that wanted Brezhnev in power and GRU military projects of his own such as the Granin Design Bureau, Groznyj Grad, and the Shagohod.


But again,the supergroup of politicans mentioned in MGS1 and 2 seem to appear again,since if you do your research.Big Boss created Outer Heaven as his refuage from the world,perhaps to try and escape the reach of The Patriots?
The Patriots were never mentioned in the first Metal Gear Solid. They were introduced in Metal Gear Solid 2.

Big Boss created Outer Heaven as a nation for soldiers and mercenaries after being disgusted seeing how nations such as the United States and the Soviet Union, groups like the Philosophers, the Patriots, Department of Defense, and the CIA, and men like Gene and Volgin use them as nothing more than pawns to further advance their own personal goals. The name Outer Heaven comes from Big Boss' beleif that the ideal place for soldiers is outside of Gene's Army's Heaven.


Its hinted that the supergroup still exists,but because of secruity concerns,the President of the USA does not know about this.This is why some of the President`s aids were whispering to each other when Big Boss got his award at the end of MGS3.
Dead wrong. The President's aides were whispering because they wanted a group like the FOX Unit in the Army and under DOD control (FOX was under the control of the CIA).


Does this group really exist..and is Ocelot a member?
Yes the Patriots do exist. In my personal opinion, Ocelot is indeed a member of the main group, playing the part of an ignorant spy.
 
I'm thinking Kojima just pulls noodles of plot lines out of his ass, then hastely and randomly pastes them together.

There you have Metal Gear.
Raspy voice mulleted bearded man simulator for geeks everywhere:cmad:
 
Hades said:
I'm thinking Kojima just pulls noodles of plot lines out of his ass, then hastely and randomly pastes them together.

There you have Metal Gear.
Raspy voice mulleted bearded man simulator for geeks everywhere:cmad:

churchsign.jpg


1165827137983.jpg
 
I don't get it.

::crack****egrimmace::
 
Thak god we stopped the "their version is better than this" of that Land of Confusion song in the 5th post.

Y'know, if you go back to MGS1 (in one of those 'I wonder' moments) after MGS2, there was that moment during the Codec call about Naomi. In which Colonel said "if she's one of THEIR spies, we are in big trouble". So they might have been mentioned somewhat. Doubtful, I know.

Major Zero, I agree, can not be the Patriots.

I wonder if they are just rulers who thought that while freedom was what people should have, they still didn't trust the idea of handling over power to people like Congress or the President because they're not one person but people, different people all the time handling a certain type of power. While the Patriots are members from a family group.

I do agree with all of you when I say; I'll be waiting in MGS4 when the Patriots are revealed to be Hideo Kojima, controlling the world by creating games of Solid Snake and the world he lives in.
 
Binker said:
Y'know, if you go back to MGS1 (in one of those 'I wonder' moments) after MGS2, there was that moment during the Codec call about Naomi. In which Colonel said "if she's one of THEIR spies, we are in big trouble". So they might have been mentioned somewhat. Doubtful, I know.
Campbell was refering Naomi as a possible spy for FOXHOUND, not the Patriots. They would have been in trouble if she was working for Liquid.

Major Zero, I agree, can not be the Patriots.
A lot of us are thinking that Major Zero [BLACKOUT]might just be THE Patriot, on account of the saying "The man with the same codename as Null"[/BLACKOUT]. But he's too old to be a member in Metal Gear Solid 4.

I wonder if they are just rulers who thought that while freedom was what people should have, they still didn't trust the idea of handling over power to people like Congress or the President because they're not one person but people, different people all the time handling a certain type of power. While the Patriots are members from a family group.
The Patriots don't care about freedom. If they did, they would have allowed democracy to exist in some form, but instead it is a total stage show. They wouldn't come up with things like the S3 Plan to filter out digital information. What they are concerned with is power and keeping it, not the people. GW stated such as thing "it is our right, as your rulers." and they didn't give a damn about Raiden or Big Boss or the Boss for that matter. They treat people as pawns.

Solidus even formed the Sons of Liberty with Dead Cell so that they could overthrow the Patriots who they saw as tyrants.
 
I'd guess they can be compared to the Bilderberg Group. They are probably characters we have never seen or heard of in Metal Gear lore but are important influential corporate and political heads. They probably come from important families (think the Metal Gear equivilant to the Bushs, the Kerrys, the Clintons, the Trumps, the Buffetts, etc)
 
Matt said:
I'd guess they can be compared to the Bilderberg Group. They are probably characters we have never seen or heard of in Metal Gear lore but are important influential corporate and political heads. They probably come from important families (think the Metal Gear equivilant to the Bushs, the Kerrys, the Clintons, the Trumps, the Buffetts, etc)
It's more than just economic and political heads. It's quite obvious that the military is involved with the Patriots.

We have a man who has the same name as Null, it's obvious that he's a military man.

Ocelot has deep roots in the military.

Big Boss is possibly a former member.

The Philosophers main stays of power were both the DOD and CIA. With the Cold War on the verge of ending when they formed, the CIA's power weakened as a result. The DOD wanted to doom the CIA with the San Hieronymo incident. Ocelot assassinated the DCI, allowing him to collect all of the Philosopher's Legacy and help form the Patriots. It appears that the Patriots have some deep ties with the Pentagon.

We most likely have some political and ecomomic powerheads, but it appears that the Patriots are mostly a form of some kind of secret military dictatorship.
 
If you've played MGSPO, then you know that:

The Philosophers did not become The Patriots, as the ending to MGS3 states. Instead, Ocelot kills the DCI and destroys the documents concerning The Philosophers, eliminating any chance of reviving the organization. With the Philosophers gone, Ocelot and a "cunning strategist" plan to create a new group which will "make the world she envisioned a reality." This group would become known as The Patriots.
 
Boom said:
If you've played MGSPO, then you know that:

The Philosophers did not become The Patriots, as the ending to MGS3 states. Instead, Ocelot kills the DCI and destroys the documents concerning The Philosophers, eliminating any chance of reviving the organization. With the Philosophers gone, Ocelot and a "cunning strategist" plan to create a new group which will "make the world she envisioned a reality." This group would become known as The Patriots.

Hmm, I wonder if the "Cunning strategist"...could be The Boss? But she's dead. Eva?
 
hippie_hunter said:
It's more than just economic and political heads. It's quite obvious that the military is involved with the Patriots.

We have a man who has the same name as Null, it's obvious that he's a military man.

Ocelot has deep roots in the military.

Big Boss is possibly a former member.

The Philosophers main stays of power were both the DOD and CIA. With the Cold War on the verge of ending when they formed, the CIA's power weakened as a result. The DOD wanted to doom the CIA with the San Hieronymo incident. Ocelot assassinated the DCI, allowing him to collect all of the Philosopher's Legacy and help form the Patriots. It appears that the Patriots have some deep ties with the Pentagon.

We most likely have some political and ecomomic powerheads, but it appears that the Patriots are mostly a form of some kind of secret military dictatorship.

I see...hmm...I haven't played Portable Ops yet.
 
I guess I found my answer to this topic. I was checking around and went to Metal Gear Solid: The Unofficial Site. And they had a page devoted to this question and their essay/answer makes sense to me. Let me share:

I: Introduction

The political character of the Metal Gear Solid series remains largely ignored in conversation about the games. A host of topics prevails: How does Liquid survive in Ocelot's arm; why did Big Boss turn evil; and, inevitably, who are the Patriots?

The introduction of Big Boss's pre-Metal Gear experiences suggested answers to many questions left hanging after the conclusion of Sons of Liberty. At the very least, speculative answers to these questions have been wrought from information provided by Snake Eater. As the son of the Sorrow, Ocelot possesses some psychic power and may communicate with the dead, thereby allowing Liquid to speak through him as a medium. Big Boss established Outer Heaven to revolt against the Patriots, who abused his service and his skills.

And the Patriots—well, the answers here are only halfway satisfying. In order to understand the Patriots, we must first understand the Philosophers in Snake Eater. In order to understand the Philosophers, we must understand some of the historical context surrounding the Cold War as the continuation of the relationships established between states during World War II. The material may sound dry, but it becomes quite engaging—especially as one realizes that real-world philosophers and patriots have determined the quality of our daily lives. We must look to the series’ political subtleties in order to answer the largest question—“Who are the Patriots?”

II: Snake Eater

As established in Snake Eater, the Philosophers were comprised of societal elites from the United States, the Soviet Union, and China. These elites joined their influence and their fortunes to remake the world in the image of peace and economic contentment. The key to the successful execution of their plans was the Philosophers' Legacy: over one billion dollars scattered across the globe in a variety of bank accounts. Volgin's father, a Treasurer for the Philosophers, embezzled the Philosophers’ reconstruction funds—which Volgin then stole in order to finance his military organization.

Between the time when Volgin's father robbed the Philosophers and the events of Snake Eater, the absence of the reconstructed funds resulted in a loss of direction among the Philosophers. They argued and split according to national affiliation, and each respective faction ate away at its own innards. As the societal elites who formed the Philosophers during World War II passed away, younger elites assumed the positions of power. These younger elites lacked the temperance on hubris and ambition that the incipient members had earned during the hardships of the Second World War. While each faction’s nationalist goals required the Philosophers’ Legacy, the new Philosophers were still wealthy enough to remain involved in warfare across the earth. The new blood was hot and warmongering, and the Philosophers' Legacy would finance each nation's glory at the expense of the others'.

In Snake Eater then we see the final showdown between the inheritors of the Philosophers' organizations. EVA was tricked into returning to China with a fake microfilm, and the Boss secured the real microfilm for America by infiltrating Volgin’s ranks. For reasons that are unclear, half of the Philosophers' Legacy remained in Soviet Russia's possession until the end of the Cold War. The United States won the Cold War when it claimed the entire Philosophers’ Legacy.

Snake Eater impressively dramatized the economic struggles of the Cold War without directly mentioning economics at all. However, the importance of economic ideals cannot be ignored with all the clues dropped in the game. Historically the Cold War was a conflict between the opposite economic ideologies of capitalism and communism, in addition to the nuclear arms race at the center of Snake Eater’s plot. The "division between East and West" that "marked the beginning of the Cold War" (as explained in David Hayter's introductory monologue) was primarily an economic division. After World War II, Western nations formed economic relationships with each other via capitalistic exchanges. Most Eastern nations became self-contained and shunned free trade with capitalist economies, the most significant of which were Soviet Russia and the People’s Republic of China.

Social ideologies came with economic policies. Capitalist economies placed more emphasis upon individual achievement and identity; Communist economies placed more emphasis upon dedicating oneself to society’s greater good and government service in addition to sacrificing the spoils of one's work to the community’s welfare. Individual accountability is everything in capitalism; in Communism, no one takes ownership of anything.

The Philosophers’ fictional history parallels the development of the historical relationships between the United States, Soviet Russia, and China, as each nation redefined its stance toward former allies from the Second World War. During World War II, the United States gave economic and material support to China, which (at that time) was not a Communist state. America supported the anti-Communist Chinese forces because China shared the Pacific War against Japan. The Soviet Union and America likewise shared membership among the Allied Powers mostly because of their coordinated wartime activity against Japan. Soviet and American military forces also shared the burden of resisting and counteracting Nazi Germany's continental aggression. The Soviet Union, non-Communist China, and the United States all shared the work of containing and neutralizing Nazi Germany and Japan. Both of these World War II Axis powers justified their wars according to ideologies based on racial superiority, holy war, and the desire to reform the world in their respective images.

However, Stalin feared President Truman’s America when he beheld the power of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He anticipated an America one that would hold economic superiority over Soviet Russia because of America's superior weapons. Thus the arms race began. Around the same time, China's Communist leader Mao Tse Tung effectively won the Cultural Revolution. Non-communist China (which America had supported militarily during World War II) was put down and its advocates executed by order of the People's Republic of China. The Communist Chinese revolutionaries had been the United States’ implied enemies; they naturally feared the economic consequences of America's superior weaponry. Thus the arms race gained momentum in China.

The drama of changed international relationships parallels the change in the Philosophers' relationships. The organization’s fictional history illustrates developments in world history—but why then would the organization bear the name "Philosophers"? What type of philosophers existed in all of the major Allied Powers, determined the structure and methods of war, and was vital in post-World War II politics?

The answer: Economic Philosophers.

The organization's name bears a haunting similarity to a highly influential book by Robert Heilbroner titled The Worldly Philosophers. The book details the importance of economic philosophy and its effects upon both human behavior and thought. Knowing what we know about the shadow-government operations of the MGS Philosophers, the following excerpts from The Worldly Philosophers seem uncannily relevant.

This is a book about a handful of men with a curious claim to fame. By all the rules of schoolboy history books, they were nonentities (Heilbroner).

A few paragraphs later, we read:

[What] they did was more decisive for history than many acts of statesmen who basked in brighter glory, often more profoundly disturbing than the shuttling of armies back and forth across frontiers, more powerful for good and bad than the edicts of kings and legislatures. It was this: they shaped and swayed men’s minds (Heilbroner).

It should be noted that Heilbroner does not cast his "worldly philosophers" as figures who lived as insidiously and craftily as the MGS Philosophers. The essence of their significance remains nearly identical, however. Both the "worldly philosophers" and the MGS Philosophers remained invisible; both used the materials of the world in conjunction with their ideals to direct literal history; and both provided the foundations for the 20th century's major wartime history.

There historical and literary references paint the Philosophers as mythologized forms of each of the most powerful Allied nations' political and economic characters. The Philosophers amassed their Legacy to give motion to their ideals of global unity after World War II. As the last direct descendant of any of the original Philosophers, the Boss describes their vision best when she describes her view of Earth from outer space: "No nations, no countries."

However, the figures died whose ideals grew from suffering. Their successors were given mere power without the guidance of their predecessors' maturity as it developed during the Second World War. This coheres with the spirit of the entire Metal Gear Solid series. We can trace the theme of incomplete inheritance through the entire Metal Gear Solid trilogy: in Metal Gear Solid, Big Boss passes genetic power to Liquid Snake without the maturity to guide those genes toward true glory; in Metal Gear Solid 2, Peter Stillman passes on his demolition theories to Fatman without the wisdom to use those theories best; and in Snake Eater, the Boss's relationship to Naked Snake revolves around the gift of knowledge without the communication of the values required to use knowledge for either virtue or vice.

As we learn in the epilogue to Snake Eater, the American Philosophers obtain the full Philosophers' Legacy and change their organization's name to "the Patriots." The transformation marks the death of all scraps left of the original Philosophers’ values. The movement toward economic single-mindedness in American political life began.

A philosopher asks: "What should I do to make life better for all people? What sort of person must I become in order to live justly with respect to my neighbor? And, lest it go unnoted, all of humanity is my neighbor." A patriot however narrows his focus and asks: "What should I do to make life better for my countrymen, at the expense of other nations' populations? What sort of person must I become to live justly and respect the needs of my country? And, lest it go unnoted, my country is not the world."

The Philosophers intended to establish global economic relationships that would annul the possibility of future wars fueled by race supremacy ideals. We may deduce that their most concrete goal was to abolish any chance that one nation might use force to dominate the world in the interest of cultural reformation. (We should remember that both of these ideals were characteristics of Nazi Germany and WWII Shôwa Japan.) The Philosophers’ ideal was to establish a world wherein holy war could not occur: they saw the need to reckon all human beings as residents of Earth.

The Patriots intended to exploit all available avenues to advance American welfare at the expense of global welfare—even to the extent of reforming information according to their ideologies and controlling world culture. The Patriots used the Philosophers’ momentum to achieve ends that the Philosophers specifically abhorred.

The Patriots no longer identify themselves as human beings at the end of Sons of Liberty. The transformation’s literal process remains unknown within the context of the games. Nevertheless, we may infer the Patriots’ development from the events described in the timeline provided before the credits in Snake Eater. The Les enfants terribles Project was the most crucial step in their evolution from "merely human" toward something indefinable and greater-than-human.

Source: http://www.metalgearsolid.org/show_features.php?id=597
 
Matt said:
Hmm, I wonder if the "Cunning strategist"...could be The Boss? But she's dead. Eva?

My guess is Major Zero. Zero is the Major's codename and is basically the same as Frank Jaeger's codename, Null.

EVA was trained by the Chinese Philosophers which no longer existed by Snake Eater, her loyalties are with China, not the United States. I have a feeling though that she joins Big Boss's FOXHOUND unit once the unit is organized exactly after Portable Ops.
 

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