Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Ming-Na Wen IS Agent Melinda May

[Adamu]

I have a lot of problems with this show, but if you take issue with the logic of a... dainty woman taking down men twice her size, then you have to write off almost all live-action heroines.

A lot of female actors wouldn't be able to find major parts...

But this strikes of tokenism, and is an insult to the audience. I don't think female actors are entitled to roles as action heroes if it hurts the 'believability' of a story. Yes, every sci fi/action film stretches believability to the breaking point, but may and black widow are among the least believable action heroes I've seen.

Charlize Theron is a gorgeous woman, but her action sequences in aeon flux are just laughable.

Conversely, trinity was fantastic in the matrix trilogy. Then again, she was willing to work very hard in order to make her very challenging fight and action sequences look as believable as possible.

Can wen and johannson say the same? Absolutely not.

edit: and this is not strictly a gender issue, either: Fury has an action sequence in the avengers where he rolls neatly and effortlessly out of a crashing helicopter. Samuel Jackson is a charismatic actor, but that sequence right there was not very believable.

This is a problem for the avengers franchise. It's very obvious that the majority of key actors are not willing to work very hard in order to create highly believable action scenes.

By way of contrast, the matrix trilogy is notable for how hard the principals worked at becoming competent martial artists.

It is this work ethic which is totally absent from the shield series.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Oh c'mon, we both know the audience doesn't deserve that much credit.

Obviously people enjoy it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Though I will say that the appearances of women in this series has made me roll my eyes a few times.

Skye, the hacker living in a van with model looks, and perfect make up, is a pretty good example.

So, I hear where you're coming from. I just think that ship has sailed - a long, long time.

 

[Adamu]

Chloe's a hot girl and a very good actress. I think she's hilarious, in a good way.

There's a lot of politics in the casting process, so we'll never know why she was selected, as opposed to the hundreds or thousands of other gals who wanted the part.

In fact, I don't even want to ask that question, since it's very likely I won't like the answer.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

But this strikes of tokenism, and is an insult to the audience. I don't think female actors are entitled to roles as action heroes if it hurts the 'believability' of a story. Yes, every sci fi/action film stretches believability to the breaking point, but may and black widow are among the least believable action heroes I've seen.

Charlize Theron is a gorgeous woman, but her action sequences in aeon flux are just laughable.

Conversely, trinity was fantastic in the matrix trilogy. Then again, she was willing to work very hard in order to make her very challenging fight and action sequences look as believable as possible.

Can wen and johannson say the same? Absolutely not.

edit: and this is not strictly a gender issue, either: Fury has an action sequence in the avengers where he rolls neatly and effortlessly out of a crashing helicopter. Samuel Jackson is a charismatic actor, but that sequence right there was not very believable.

This is a problem for the avengers franchise. It's very obvious that the majority of key actors are not willing to work very hard in order to create highly believable action scenes.

By way of contrast, the matrix trilogy is notable for how hard the principals worked at becoming competent martial artists.

It is this work ethic which is totally absent from the shield series.

LOL i wouldn't call the action scenes in the Matrix believable...at all.

They're 'nicer' to look at because its highly choreographed.Just like the action scenes in that movie Ong Bak. Stylized...yes...believable...hell no.

Believeable Kung fu fights in CB movies would be something like that fight scene between Blade vs Nomak in Blade 2.

I'd much preffer fight scenes between Widow and hawkye over anything seen in the Matrix.

 

[NJCaliboi]

I love her fight sequences and i totally embrace the character's badassness! As far as I'm concerned , no problems here...

 

[Adamu]

LOL i wouldn't call the action scenes in the Matrix believable...at all.

They're 'nicer' to look at because its highly choreographed.Just like the action scenes in that movie Ong Bak. Stylized...yes...believable...hell no.

Believeable Kung fu fights in CB movies would be something like that fight scene between Blade vs Nomak in Blade 2.

I'd much preffer fight scenes between Widow and hawkye over anything seen in the Matrix.

Hmm, some people just don't like to read,

re: "every sci fi/action film stretches believability to the breaking point, but may and black widow are among the least believable action heroes I've seen."

The way that a producer, writer or actors can help an audience to suspend disbelief in action sequences is through proper preparation, outstanding choreography and when time allows, a ton of elbow grease and dedication.

This show has none of those vital ingredients. The fight sequences are just formulaic crap which aren't much better than what we saw in wonder woman in the '70's.

I know it's just a tv show, but given the summer long hype, I was expecting more. Call me spoiled.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

RE 2:

Conversely, trinity was fantastic in the matrix trilogy. Then again, she was willing to work very hard in order to make her very challenging fight and action sequences look as believable as possible.

That's the point i was reffering to...should be obvious, right?

I just find it funny that someone would call Black widow least believable and then in the same breath mentioned Trinity from the Matrix as an example of how it should be done.

And what you call an outstanding fight choreography, i would call stylized crap.

The fact that YOU didn't like what you saw is your problem. That don't say anything about wheter or not the people involved in this series or the Avengers movie didn't work hard...or like you say, ton of elbow grease and dedications.

 

[Adamu]

Are you referring to johannson? She's a beautiful gal, but it's very, painfully, completely obvious that her action sequences are ALL performed by a stunt double. Johannson is an amazing looking woman with fabulous curves, but no one with an IQ above 10 would mistake her for an elite martial artist.

I can understand why she was cast: she is very pretty and a big box office draw. But she displays no aptitude whatsoever for martial arts. All of it is stunt doubles and/or CGI.

Trinity OTOH, did much of her own stunt work. The camera doesn't need to cut away from her face, or put a red wig on her stunt double. The more you see the actual actor doing their stunt work, obviously, the more believable the scene.

Call it stylized crap, but at least carrie ann moss worked her ass off to give film audiences her best possible performance.

In the avengers, wen and esp. johannson, clearly are minimally involved in their stunt work. Understandable, but less believable.

Are you disputing the fact that most if not all, of black widow and may's action sequences are the product of stunt double and/or CGI work? Because they obviously are.

As far as the avengers film, it is so overloaded with CGI action sequences that it's basically no longer a live action film, but a CGI cartoon instead. There is simply no way of making human fight sequences completely photo-realistic with CGI at this time. There is still a discernible difference, no matter how realistic the computer graphics.

RE 2:


That's the point i was reffering to...should be obvious, right?

I just find it funny that someone would call Black widow least believable and then in the same breath mentioned Trinity from the Matrix as an example of how it should be done.

And what you call an outstanding fight choreography, i would call stylized crap.

The fact that YOU didn't like what you saw is your problem. That don't say anything about wheter or not the people involved in this series or the Avengers movie didn't work hard...or like you say, ton of elbow grease and dedications.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

Are you referring to johannson? She's a beautiful gal, but it's very, painfully, completely obvious that her action sequences are ALL performed by a stunt double. Johannson is an amazing looking woman with fabulous curves, but no one with an IQ above 10 would mistake her for an elite martial artist.

It really doesn't matter wheter some of her action scenes were performed by a stunt double.It's her overall performance as the black widow that sold me on that character.Not only her action scenes.

She shown fear when chased by The Hulk, show doubts when cap asked her: 'can you do it?' during the battle of New York. That and combine with her fight scenes-even if some of it were done using stunt double- makes her more believable as character than...Trinty.Whose main motivations on any given situation is just to looks cool. And when the moment came for her to kick ass...it just looks like she just trying to remember a dance routine taught to her by Yuen Woo Ping.

So even if her fight scenes are more 'nicer' to look at,it's obvious that she's no martial artist either. And even moreso than The widow and May because how her fight scenes are choreographed.

So i failed to see how she's more 'believable' as a badass female action hero.

 

[Adamu]

I was referring to the fight and action sequences only. You're extending the debate beyond the original parameters in your post.

My original point was that an over-emphasis upon CGI and/or stunt doubles makes any scene look less realistic. That point's self evident. Or at least should be. On that we can agree.

As far as the quality of acting overall in the matrix vs. the avengers, the quality varies from actor to actor and from scene to scene in both films. And that's being generous. Keanu Reeves is even more catatonic than Wen. He's no brando.

The acting is just good enough in both films, and there are occasional standout performances in both (well, maybe not in the avengers).

But returning to my original point, neither wen nor johannson are willing to do their own stuntwork (understandable) and the avengers franchise iazily resorts to CGI whenever and wherever possible. This detracts from the believability of the action sequences.

I have little interest in debating the finer points of the self evident mediocrity of the acting in either the avengers or in the matrix.

It really doesn't matter wheter some of her action scenes were performed by a stunt double.It's her overall performance as the black widow that sold me on that character.Not only her action scenes.

She shown fear when chased by The Hulk, show doubts when cap asked her: 'can you do it?' during the battle of New York. That and combine with her fight scenes-even if some of it were done using stunt double- makes her more believable as character than...Trinty.Whose main motivations on any given situation is just to looks cool. And when the moment came for her to kick ass...it just looks like she just trying to remember a dance routine taught to her by Yuen Woo Ping.

So even if her fight scenes are more 'nicer' to look at,it's obvious that she's no martial artist either. And even moreso than The widow and May because how her fight scenes are choreographed.

So i failed to see how she's more 'believable' as a badass female action hero.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

I was referring to the fight and action sequences only. You're extending the debate beyond the original parameters in your post

That's what i was reffering mostly, the fight scenes.Just elaborated further.

My original point was that an over-emphasis upon CGI and/or stunt doubles makes any scene look less realistic

Not necessarily.Like any other tool , it depends on how you use it. And on action scenes,even if the whole thing looks realistic, if you staged the whole thing badly, it will looks like crap.And example is the fight scenes with Bane vs Batman. It may looked 'realistic', but it was badly choreographed and edited, the final results looked like a couple of third grader duking it out.

But returning to my original point, neither wen nor johannson are willing to do their own stuntwork (understandable) and the avengers franchise iazily resorts to CGI whenever and wherever possible. This detracts from the believability of the action sequences.

There's alot of thing that are needed to make an action scenes works. Not just the believabity factor.Case in point; Spidey 2 train sequence.Many will agree that it's hands down, one of the best action scenes in any CB movie...CGI and all!

Another example, but the other side of the coin; action scenes in Nolan's Bat movies.

Realistic, almost no CGI involved...still lotsa people would say that it's badly staged, badly edited, and the results; the weakest points in those movies.

So there you have it.

I have little interest in debating the finer points of the self evident mediocrity of the acting in either the avengers or in the matrix.

cool

 

[Xeno]

Trinity OTOH, did much of her own stunt work. The camera doesn't need to cut away from her face, or put a red wig on her stunt double. The more you see the actual actor doing their stunt work, obviously, the more believable the scene.

Call it stylized crap, but at least carrie ann moss worked her ass off to give film audiences her best possible performance.

Carrie-Anne Moss did most of the stunt work in The Matrix, and she suffered serious injuries in the process. She injured her ankle and broke her leg. More recently, Robert Downey, Jr. suffered a badly broken ankle while performing a stunt for Iron Man 3. Scarlett Johansson was reportedly dragged by a vehicle when a stunt went wrong on a movie set last month and narrowly avoided injury. You may applaud those actors for giving their all, but injuries on movie and TV sets are a serious matter. The prospect of a star being hurt attempting to do stunts better left to professionals dictates the decision to use stunt performers.

 

[Adamu]

Carrie-Anne Moss did most of the stunt work in The Matrix, and she suffered serious injuries in the process. She injured her ankle and broke her leg. More recently, Robert Downey, Jr. suffered a badly broken ankle while performing a stunt for Iron Man 3. Scarlett Johansson was reportedly dragged by a vehicle when a stunt went wrong on a movie set last month and narrowly avoided injury. You may applaud those actors for giving their all, but injuries on movie and TV sets are a serious matter. The prospect of a star being hurt attempting to do stunts better left to professionals dictates the decision to use stunt performers.

Agreed. Even the rope work in and of itself was very painful according to all of the actors who were required to do it in the matrix.

There are certain stunts that simply shouldn't be performed at all, however, whether by "stars" or by "professionals," which is where CGI comes in.

There was one stunt in particular in the matrix, where the stuntman simply fell backwards, his head hitting the concrete without bracing himself in any way. This stuntman performed multiple takes. Just an incredibly stupid idea.

But back on point, appearances matter. Johannson is a gorgeous, voluptuous woman. But she doesn't look or move in an athletic way, much less come across as an elite martial artist. Marketable, yes. Believable, not so much.

Wen, for different reasons, is also not terribly believable as an elite combat ops field agent. I've already stated the reasons.

The trinity character is highly stylized, but she is far and away the most athletic of the 3, as evidenced by her actual work on screen.

Very simple stuff.

 

[fixxxer]

This entire conversation is bizarre. Black Widow doesn't come across as an elite hand-to-hand combatant because... boobs!

 

[Adamu]

This entire conversation is bizarre. Black Widow doesn't come across as an elite hand-to-hand combatant because... boobs!

Reeks of pc liberal delusion. Johannson is a sex symbol. She can't fight. Show me one second of footage of her combat prowess. It doesn't exist. The CGI and stunt double work is far too obvious.

 

[T-Dragon]

There probably is footage of ScarJo fighting or going over scenes, but finding it will be difficult. Regardless even if a stunt double is used, there is still training involved for the actor. But this thread isn't about her.

As far as Ming-Na goes, she stated in an interview that she is doing the stunts and stunt-fighting.

HitFix: How does that extend to the action scenes? To making sure that we know that this woman kicks butt, but making sure she does it in a believable and relatable way, I guess? [She laughs.]

Ming-Na Wen: I train. I work out and I have great stunt coordinators and choreographers to help me through every step and with the magic of filmmaking and editing, it all brings about her skills, to another level. That has to be very believable and that was a great challenge for me, because I was a bit nervous about pulling that off, but after I saw the pilot, I was just like, "Oh yeah! We can do this!" I've seen some other stuff and I'm so excited that she's looking badass.


HitFix: What has come easily for you and what has been hard for you within that realm?

Ming-Na Wen: For me, I think the hardest part is doing the actual stunts, the stunt-fighting. That's a whole other thing. I'm not really punching out the stunt guy, nor are they hitting me, so it's learning this dance, really, within the fight. It's how to pull back, how to take a hit and make it look real. So that's all new. As far as doing high kicks and being able to throw punches, I've had some training in the past, playing different roles whether it was Chun Li or just for my own pleasure of working out, the tae-bos and the martial arts stuff. I've had some training in that, but the actual stunt fighting? Yeah, that's all new and I'm loving it, because I feel like I'm part of a very elite group of people with these stunt guys. They're awesome.

Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/the-fien-prin...edonverse-and-punctuation#GmjB0Uq6jHbLvrlY.99

 

[C. Lee]

This entire conversation is bizarre. Black Widow doesn't come across as an elite hand-to-hand combatant because... boobs!

It also comes across as - guhrls are too look pretty and be rescued...they can't fight.......

 

[Adamu]

You guys are going to have to get your stories straight since another poster stated wen does NOT do her own stunt work because of the physical risk involved.

Either way, the believability of a middle aged, slight of build gal demolishing multiple elite soldiers twice her size and half her age is not very plausible, regardless of whether she does her own 'stunt fighting' or not.

I think some of you guys would cast kevin hart as kareem abdul jabbar for his bio-pic.

 

[C. Lee]

And I think some guys have a serious problem when a woman is used as anything but a sex object.

 

[The Question]

Reeks of pc liberal delusion. Johannson is a sex symbol. She can't fight. Show me one second of footage of her combat prowess. It doesn't exist. The CGI and stunt double work is far too obvious.

Well, yeah. She's an actor playing a highly trained fighter and not actually a highly trained fighter. Chris Evans had stunt doubles standing in for him just as much as Johansen did.

And both Evans and Johansen do a lot more of their own stunts than a lot of actors. They do as much as is safe for them to do with the level of training they have received, and the bring in their doubles to fill in the rest. Their gender doesn't have a whole lot to do with it, thats just how action movies are usually made.

 

[Adamu]

It also comes across as - guhrls are too look pretty and be rescued...they can't fight.......

I posted a video of women's mma champ rousey training with a men's champion, mousasi. Rousey fights at 135, cutting from about 155. Mousasi fights at 185/205. Rousey is an olympic medalist. She is an mma champion.

Mousasi tosses her around like a rag doll (very carefully). Rousey can't do anything.

Meanwhile, we're supposed to believe may, 2X rousey's age, and probably 40 pounds lighter, is an invincible warrior who can take on entire legions of military and super soldiers as "the cavalry."

Talk about pandering to pc liberal feminist delusion.

Should I write an ode to the flight skills of santa claus and his reindeer too?

 

[Dark Raven]

Melinda May is pretty dull, I have to say. If I hadn't seen Ming Na in anything else, I'd think she was very wooden. I'm bored of this kind of character anyway. Ward is boring enough himself, so having both of them in scenes together makes it even more dull.

It seems all of Coulson's underlings are either wooden and bland or geeky and childish.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Should I write an ode to the flight skills of santa claus and his reindeer too?

dude, you're just making it worse with every post. just... stop

 

[Adamu]

Kudos to the writers!

Coulson: "agent may specializes in private."

May: "coulson doesn't want you to know the truth. The truth is...."

LMAO! Great writing, guys. Immediately after coulson gives may a vote of confidence, she's ready to blurt out the big secret.