Negativity towards the DC films? - Part 1

[Sleiek]

A single scene does not a character make.

Just because I embeded a single photo doesn't mean he smiled only during that scene. People have bad memory when it comes to DCEU movies, it seems.

And Oh, I do believe a single scene can make a character.

 

[jmc]

The main issue with how Superman has been portrayed is that these values many insist were presented to us were done in a very unclear fashion. You have to be clear with what your characters values are. Can it be done with just imagery? Yes, to a point, but you can't just assume the audience gets what this character is about with imagery alone. Sometimes we need to hear what the character is thinking because words matter.

Contrast that with Wonder Woman. Diana's values are established very early on in the film and come to ahead during the No Man's Land sequence. Her values are established with absolute clarity by herself as well as her actions so by the time she steps over the trenches the audience is 100% emotionally invested and behind her all the way. That's the pay off missing from MoS and BvS. Without clear values the audience has nothing to grab onto emotionally.

People who say the audience is being lazy for not thinking are frankly missing the point. The audience wants to engage with these characters, they don't want to decipher them. This isn't a puzzle they want to solve. There's a time and place for that type of story, but it is not within the context of this particular set of characters. I'm sorry to those who feel otherwise and feel something is being lost by not attempting to do something like this within the genre, but the reality is what you like has been tried and it hasn't worked. Honestly, it will be for the better if the other films follow WW's formula.

 

[MbJ]

Still, the film sits at like 94% the highest ever. I'm not sure it's better than all these other films that didn't get 94.... Still I think if dc keeps making stuff like this(quality aside) they will avoid the 26 percents from now on. I'm reading around here dc made their first marvel film, kinda interesting, maybe people are meaning quality. As all things I'll judge for myself. Very curious about jla though. There is clearly a winning formula in this approach.

Yes it's called making a good movie.

 

[Marvin]

Yes it's called making a good movie.

Nah, plenty of 'good' movies even great ones that don't get 94.
sry. I was walking about following in the direction they announced they were going to taking things.

Like the dude above u just said...'formula'

 

[Marvin]

The main issue with how Superman has been portrayed is that these values many insist were presented to us were done in a very unclear fashion. You have to be clear with what your characters values are. Can it be done with just imagery? Yes, to a point, but you can't just assume the audience gets what this character is about with imagery alone. Sometimes we need to hear what the character is thinking because words matter.

Contrast that with Wonder Woman. Diana's values are established very early on in the film and come to ahead during the No Man's Land sequence. Her values are established with absolute clarity by herself as well as her actions so by the time she steps over the trenches the audience is 100% emotionally invested and behind her all the way. That's the pay off missing from MoS and BvS. Without clear values the audience has nothing to grab onto emotionally.

People who say the audience is being lazy for not thinking are frankly missing the point. The audience wants to engage with these characters, they don't want to decipher them. This isn't a puzzle they want to solve. There's a time and place for that type of story, but it is not within the context of this particular set of characters. I'm sorry to those who feel otherwise and feel something is being lost by not attempting to do something like this within the genre, but the reality is what you like has been tried and it hasn't worked. Honestly, it will be for the better if the other films follow WW's formula.

I think you're right in the observation. I also think it's sad and reductive.

Logan pretty much does the exact opposite of what you are talking about which is why I love it so. Sure by the end whatever code and beliefs the man has come together to a point, but it's still a very human story in that he and his morals are...layered and not simple, that's life and yes some comics(particularly the silver age) are escapist things, but some, particularly the modern ones(even superman modern ones) go a different way. This to me is the most human ad relatable approach to characters and that's when I relate to them.
Yes you are right that people(and critics) want these characters taken in the direction of the former, even after countless films of just that, but no you are wrong if you are asserting that it's the only/best way to do it.

I do think if there is a formula to be implemented, it would be do the traditional thing first and save the more genre transcendent film for the end when you close your trilogy, when people are on board. Though after superman returns I can see why that would be debatable.

 

[MbJ]

Nah, plenty of 'good' movies even great ones that don't get 94.

And this one did. It's really not the rocket science people are positioning it as. They made a good film, it got good reviews.

 

[Marvin]

And this one did. It's really not the rocket science people are positioning it as. They made a good film, it got good reviews.

That's great, they've(not just dc) made good films in the past that got poor reviews, as 'good' as this was, that won't do it alone. This isn't rocket science. That's the point, it's not science.
Take death, killing, murder and destruction...if this was 'rocket' science it would be a topic of discussion right about now as it's been for the past 5 years.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

The main issue with how Superman has been portrayed is that these values many insist were presented to us were done in a very unclear fashion. You have to be clear with what your characters values are. Can it be done with just imagery? Yes, to a point, but you can't just assume the audience gets what this character is about with imagery alone. Sometimes we need to hear what the character is thinking because words matter.

I'll concede that. I feel that with Singer and Snyder they didn't know how to let Superman speak because too often he comes across as corny or, for Snyder in BvS, if Superman spoke the conflict would be resolved and there would be no reason for Bats and Supes to fight.

 

[Flint Marko]

Of course she is. What I am noticing is people only understand motivations from "talking" characters and refuse to see it in characters who are doers but no talkers.

Superman doesn't do or say anything interesting. He is basically the same throughout both movies and remains cold and distant to the audience. It's no wonder why this doesn't work for people.

It's because people don't want to do the mental work, they want characters who spell out what is going on and how the characters and stories themselves are evolving. It's pretty much why exposition is rampant in film now.

I blame the third act of Batman Begins.

I really do love the continual insistence that the audience is at fault for just "not getting it", as opposed to the film makers churning out a crappy movie.

 

[MbJ]

Take death, killing, murder and destruction...if this was 'rocket' science it would be a topic of discussion right about now as it's been for the past 5 years.

You're still assuming the only reason people didn't like those films was because they were dark and upsetting, not that Wonder Woman might just genuinely be a better movie.

Look at the last few pages of this thread. It's people throwing out every excuse possible to explain why Wonder Woman has gotten better critical reception than MOS and BVS without just saying "Hey, maybe people just thought it was the superior film." It's ludicrous and kind of pretentious to pretend that the only reason it's being received better is because it supposedly didn't challenge the audience or wasn't intellectually "deep."

 

[Marvin]

You're still assuming the only reason people didn't like those films was because they were dark and upsetting, not that Wonder Woman might just genuinely be a better movie.

Look at the last few pages of this thread. It's people throwing out every excuse possible to explain why Wonder Woman has gotten better critical reception than MOS and BVS without just saying "Hey, maybe people just thought it was the superior film." It's ludicrous and kind of pretentious to pretend that the only reason it's being received better is because it supposedly didn't challenge the audience or wasn't intellectually "deep."

When you read me write 'the only reason people didn't like those films is because...' be sure to let me know. Otherwise stop with the strawman. That being said If you think yet another (supposedly) dark uninspiring un hopeful optimistic film from dc even this 'good' would have received unanimous praise, particularly from the many dozens of people that have been saying dc needs to stop doing that. "That's neat".
Apparently wonder woman is stellar on story and all the the things. What happens when a movie is just ok...and is super dark and doesn't follow the source. And get's the same avg score as the likes of thor? Just a thought.

And actually the last few pages of this thread has people like you saying the opposite. I'll say this once more. The discussion about audience challenging and 'deep' is a very specific one that on my part has little to do with wonder woman's reception and more to do with....a discussion about if audiences need to do work is a good thing or bad thing, if superman's motivation are clear and if not is it an inherent flaw that you have to put them together. Score or no score that can be a discussion in the realm of film. It could happen in any thread. It just happened to be brought up here. It's like you jumped in late and saw key phrases and assumed what you will.

As for wonderwoman, i'm sure many people love it(i did). I'm also sure it has a formula(not actually a bad thing). One dc would be keen to stick to.

It's third act is a bit odd to me though. I need to revisit it.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Nah, plenty of 'good' movies even great ones that don't get 94.
sry. I was walking about following in the direction they announced they were going to taking things.

Like the dude above u just said...'formula'

If they were good movies they would have gotten a good score, If they were great movies they would have gotten a great score.

Superman doesn't do or say anything interesting. He is basically the same throughout both movies and remains cold and distant to the audience. It's no wonder why this doesn't work for people.

I think this is why people liked Tyler Hoechlin's Superman so much. He actually talked to his cousin, J'onn, Alex, Winn, Cat, Lena, even Metallo.
And it's not because he was smiling all the time. There was genuine antagonism with J'onn over kryptonite, and of course with Metallo.
Frowns, harse looks. It's just they balanced out the serious stuff with a little humor tossed in here and there.
Things a classic Superman would say. Such as the scene with the robbers. "If the bullets don't work, why the punching?"

 

[Marvin]

If they were good movies they would have gotten a good score, If they were great movies they would have gotten a great score.

A brief history of rotten tomatoes and all movie review things and all art reception in a nutshell.
If it's good it gets good scores. If it's great, it gets great scores.

 

[GuillotineGav]

Some of the criticism of the DC films seems bizarre to me, while other criticism I can totally understand.

The genesis of the "DC Hate" really started with the controversy surrounding Man of Steel. Personally I think Man of Steel is one of the best comic book movies ever made but clearly not everyone saw it that way. I can understand why people who preferred a traditional portrayal of Superman were upset, but to me I really enjoyed this new interpretation of the characters. From my point of view we already got to see the traditional/conventional Superman with the Reeve's films so it was refreshing to see something new and tonally different. People felt MoS was too dark and that the action descended into "disaster porn" with a near total disregard of one of the core aspects of being a superhero: saving people. I would disagree with that assessment, but that was a common criticism.

This flavor of criticism extended into BvS and DC films got a reputation as being "joyless" and too dark compared to what Marvel was doing. This is absolutely not a problem to me. I like options when it comes to comic book films. If I want a fun popcorn flick I have the Marvel films. If I want something more gritty and dark I have DC films like MoS and BvS. I enjoy the diversity of the storytelling and this isn't a negative to me. It seems many critics for one reason or another have almost typecast the entire genre of superhero films as necessarily needing to be light-hearted and fun action films in order to be successful productions. I really disagree with this. I would absolutely love to see a live-action R-rated Batman film that is more horror/true crime than the traditional molds we've seen so far. I know it will never happen for business reasons but the fact that it is conceptually possible shows that these characters are elastic enough to not be pigeon holed into one type of film.

Ultimately I think the success of Wonder Woman might be able to save the DC films from continued hate from critics IF it is followed up with a well executed Justice League that shifts its tone from what we've seen in MoS and BvS. I didn't mind the darker tone in these films, but clearly a good portion of the audience wants something less dark and it seems Warner Bros and Snyder are trying to give the people what they want on this go around. We'll see if they pull it off come November.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Some of the criticism of the DC films seems bizarre to me, while other criticism I can totally understand.

The genesis of the "DC Hate" really started with the controversy surrounding Man of Steel. Personally I think Man of Steel is one of the best comic book movies ever made but clearly not everyone saw it that way. I can understand why people who preferred a traditional portrayal of Superman were upset, but to me I really enjoyed this new interpretation of the characters. From my point of view we already got to see the traditional/conventional Superman with the Reeve's films so it was refreshing to see something new and tonally different. People felt MoS was too dark and that the action descended into "disaster porn" with a near total disregard of one of the core aspects of being a superhero: saving people. I would disagree with that assessment, but that was a common criticism.

Man of Steel was a good action movie. If it had been a Batman movie it would have been an awesome movie. It was just a terrible Superman movie. I just don't get why someone makes a movie and tosses everything out about the character that made the character beloved just to be doing something different for the sake of doing something different.
If I go to see a Catwoman movie, I want to see Catwoman. Not some freak that got turned into a cat by magic. If I go see a Superman movie I want to see Superman. Not some gloomy Gus that mopes around the whole movie because no one loves him.

This flavor of criticism extended into BvS and DC films got a reputation as being "joyless" and too dark compared to what Marvel was doing. This is absolutely not a problem to me. I like options when it comes to comic book films. If I want a fun popcorn flick I have the Marvel films. If I want something more gritty and dark I have DC films like MoS and BvS. I enjoy the diversity of the storytelling and this isn't a negative to me. It seems many critics for one reason or another have almost typecast the entire genre of superhero films as necessarily needing to be light-hearted and fun action films in order to be successful productions. I really disagree with this. I would absolutely love to see a live-action R-rated Batman film that is more horror/true crime than the traditional molds we've seen so far. I know it will never happen for business reasons but the fact that it is conceptually possible shows that these characters are elastic enough to not be pigeon holed into one type of film.

My problem with Batman v Superman wasn't that it wasn't a Marvel movie, full of lollipops and rainbows and unicorns. It was that it was a discombobulated mess that half the time I didn't even know what was going on or why the people were doing the things they were doing. Watchmen was dark, but at least it made sense. Even Man of Steel made sense, even though I didn't like the lead character. Lex Luthor was especially atrocious. I never really did figure out what his game was. Was it all just daddy issues? How stupid. Nor could I really get a handle on where Bruce Wayne was coming from. Sorry, I don't go see a superhero movie to sit there for 3 1/2 hours trying to figure out what is going on and still not know by the time the credits roll.

 

[Flint Marko]

BvS plays out less like a film and more like an endless montage of 2-3 minute scenes cut and pasted next to each other seemingly at random, only slowing down for a largely unnecessary action sequences. They could've thrown all the jokes, smiles, and rainbows possible into his movie and it still would've been panned. Hell, Suicide Squad actually got a worse critical drubbing.

 

[Marvin]

Man of Steel was a good action movie. If it had been a Batman movie it would have been an awesome movie. It was just a terrible Superman movie. I just don't get why someone makes a movie and tosses everything out about the character that..

I hear this alot(though i'm told I don't). I wonder how awesome it would be for the person that walked into the theater without any of this baggage. Better yet, for the person who's actually read the various incarnations of superman material that this movie is pulling from, now that would be interesting.

Sorry, I don't go see a superhero movie to sit there for 3 1/2 hours trying to figure out what is going on and still not know by the time the credits roll.

try harder...

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I knew exactly what was going on in BvS from the start. But the sh--on BvS and MoS train is about to start up again. It's sad when those of us who like the movie can't express it without having to defend it to those who can't leave it alone.

 

[The Joker]

But the sh--on BvS and MoS train is about to start up again.

It never stopped.

 

[jmc]

I'll concede that. I feel that with Singer and Snyder they didn't know how to let Superman speak because too often he comes across as corny or, for Snyder in BvS, if Superman spoke the conflict would be resolved and there would be no reason for Bats and Supes to fight.

And that's exactly what's wrong with this version of Superman. If Superman is allowed to talk the fight between him and Batman doesn't exist, which makes BvS a pointless movie. In their attempt to ground the character and make him more relatable they've instead silenced him, relying on his actions alone to emphasise what his values are, but imagery alone doesn't always get the point across. Contrast that with Wonder Woman where her values are not only clear with her actions but also her words. There is just as much corniness to her perspective as Superman but it's done with 100% honesty and heart and doesn't apologise for it, and that's why people love it.

 

[MbJ]

I knew exactly what was going on in BvS from the start. But the sh--on BvS and MoS train is about to start up again. It's sad when those of us who like the movie can't express it without having to defend it to those who can't leave it alone.

Except nobody is attacking anyone for liking the movie. We're making fun of the notion that the only reason anyone dislikes the movie is because they're biased or too stupid to realize how brilliant it was.

 

[Marvin]

^again no one is saying that yet, just a few posts above someone is admitting to not getting it. Strange times.

And that's exactly what's wrong with this version of Superman. If Superman is allowed to talk the fight between him and Batman doesn't exist, which makes BvS a pointless movie.

huh?
that one seems new, but interesting.
*actually forget i asked, thats just asking for it.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I hear this alot(though i'm told I don't). I wonder how awesome it would be for the person that walked into the theater without any of this baggage. Better yet, for the person who's actually read the various incarnations of superman material that this movie is pulling from, now that would be interesting.

try harder...

Well, that's what I am saying. For someone unfamiliar with Superman, never saw any other Superman movie, animation, read a Superman comic book, it was a great action movie and some of those people might have
even liked the character. But for those of use who grew up on Superman, the movies, cartoons, comic books, he just didn't seem right in Man of Steel and especially Batman v Superman. It just seemed like because
the Dark Knight trilogy was such a huge hit they tried to turn Superman into Batman, a bitter loner hated and feared by the general public. That's why I said Man of Steel would have been a great Batman movie.
There's a reason that Superman's appearance was in a movie called Batman v Superman, and not Superman v Batman. And it's not because B comes before S in the alphabet. It's because all they knew how to do was
Batman.

 

[Bearzooka]

You're still assuming the only reason people didn't like those films was because they were dark and upsetting, not that Wonder Woman might just genuinely be a better movie.

Look at the last few pages of this thread. It's people throwing out every excuse possible to explain why Wonder Woman has gotten better critical reception than MOS and BVS without just saying "Hey, maybe people just thought it was the superior film." It's ludicrous and kind of pretentious to pretend that the only reason it's being received better is because it supposedly didn't challenge the audience or wasn't intellectually "deep."

TRUTH!!! All comic fans should be happy. Wonder woman was great, DC has had two hits in a row with WW and Lego Batman. Marvel is doing good. It's a great time to be a comic book fan, stop b!itchin !!!!!

 

[Marvin]

TRUTH!!! All comic fans should be happy. Wonder woman was great, DC has had two hits in a row with WW and Lego Batman. Marvel is doing good. It's a great time to be a comic book fan, stop b!itchin !!!!!

when u actually see someone '******in' about dc's current success you be sure to let them know.