Negativity towards the DC films? - Part 1

[King Shark]

Can we please stop acting like our opinions are fact? None of what I bolded is fact. And do you want to know why I contribute to discussions like these sometimes? Because if fans of the movies don't, these boards will turn into what they were when BvS came out: an unregulated bash fest.

It's difficult for some people to accept that their line of thinking isn't definitive. You see that in pretty much any kind of discussion. In this case, the fact that the movie is disliked by a decent percentage of the audience gives the detractors even more strenght. Which is curious, because realitiscally, there's still more people not agreeing with them than people agreeing.

 

[The Guard]

I'm getting a kick out out of the idea that the "excuses" pro MOS and BVS fans have for their films (explanations on why they think they are good) are suddenly more invalid simply because WONDER WOMAN was received well.

 

[TeeKay]

Because the defences that were used for BvS and MoS simply become irrelevant after WW. Its almost hilarious to see.

 

[King Shark]

I'm getting a kick out out of the idea that the "excuses" pro MOS and BVS fans have for their films (explainations on why they think they are good) are suddenly more invalid simply because WONDER WOMAN was received well.

I haven't seen WW, so i can't comment on that. But unless WW displays the same characteristics as BvS and MOS, i don't see why the explainations would be deemed invalid. I don't think there's a conspiracy against DC as a brand, but it's undeniable that both MOS and BvS made a few very controversial decisions regarding the two most iconic heroes ever, and it can definitely prompt some animosity that you would probably not have in a movie featuring less known/important characters.

This isn't to say that the movies don't have flaws, but i honestly believe there's more to it than simply being good or bad. When you take concepts that are directed to the masses and you present them in a way that contrasts with what people are used to, there's a big chance you're gonna have a negative impactive in the movie's reception.

 

[BH/HHH]

I never said it was fact. I am speaking on my own behalf, and people don't need to keep putting IMO after everything we say for that to be obvious.

If you don't like the way the forums are, then find one that is more suited to you. BH/HH is a member of a fans of the DCEU forum. You'd probably be happier there. Because you shouldn't feel the need to feel obligated to post just so the place is not so negative for you.

They don't but I think there's a way of saying it without making it sound like people are wrong for liking these movies and thinking they're quality.

I am but people still have a right to post here and be positive if they so please.

 

[The Joker]

They don't but I think there's a way of saying it without making it sound like people are wrong for liking these movies and thinking they're quality.

How exactly is it made to sound like they are wrong to like them?

I am but people still have a right to post here and be positive if they so please.

Sure they have the right, but posting here shouldn't be a chore or obligation because you are finding it so negative. I wouldn't inhabit a forum that I found generally unpleasant. People are supposed to be here for fun.

 

[metaphysician]

They don't, however, have the right to insist that other people pretend they like a movie, when they don't. Or to insist that those who dislike a movie not discuss it, with the same freedom that they have to discuss how much they like it. If you are incapable of tolerating other people disliking a movie you love? That is ultimately *your* problem, not theirs.

 

[BH/HHH]

How exactly is it made to sound like they are wrong to like them?

Sure they have the right, but posting here shouldn't be a chore or obligation because you are finding it so negative. I wouldn't inhabit a forum that I found generally unpleasant. People are supposed to be here for fun.

I wasn't necessarily digging out what you said just saying that for some it comes across more as a fact than an opinion. I'm not saying that people have to say IMO at the end. But people often write (maybe not intentionally) comments and it can come across like people are saying its definitively bad because they don't like it. Almost like saying people are stupid or simply wrong for having the opinion they do. It goes both ways though.

But they're not just here to talk to the negative people they're here to talk to others aswell.

 

[MbJ]

I'm getting a kick out out of the idea that the "excuses" pro MOS and BVS fans have for their films (explanations on why they think they are good) are suddenly more invalid simply because WONDER WOMAN was received well.

If their defense was that the reason those movies weren't received is because there is a bias against DC Films because critics are predisposed to like Marvel instead, then yes, the excuse is invalid.

We had a whole discussion on here where people seriously tried to argue critics who have seen Marvel movies shouldn't review DC films because their perspective is automatically skewed.

 

[WBwins]

If their defense was that the reason those movies weren't received is because there is a bias against DC Films because critics are predisposed to like Marvel instead, then yes, the excuse is invalid.

.

Exactly.

 

[The_Manhunter]

I never said it was fact. I am speaking on my own behalf, and people don't need to keep putting IMO after everything we say for that to be obvious.

If you don't like the way the forums are, then find one that is more suited to you. BH/HH is a member of a fans of the DCEU forum. You'd probably be happier there. Because you shouldn't feel the need to feel obligated to post just so the place is not so negative for you.

You don't have to put "IMO" after everything. I agree that's ridiculous. But the language put forth by people with your opinion, whether you deny it or not, attempts to state most of the current DCEU movies are some of the worst superhero movies ever made.

I would appreciate if people would stop the over-exaggeration. I shouldn't have to move to a new forum. That's what's led to such polarization of opinions, not just in movie discussions but in real-world issue discussions.

 

[The Joker]

They don't, however, have the right to insist that other people pretend they like a movie, when they don't. Or to insist that those who dislike a movie not discuss it, with the same freedom that they have to discuss how much they like it. If you are incapable of tolerating other people disliking a movie you love? That is ultimately *your* problem, not theirs.

Exactly.

I wasn't necessarily digging out what you said just saying that for some it comes across more as a fact than an opinion. I'm not saying that people have to say IMO at the end. But people often write (maybe not intentionally) comments and it can come across like people are saying its definitively bad because they don't like it. Almost like saying people are stupid or simply wrong for having the opinion they do. It goes both ways though.

But they're not just here to talk to the negative people they're here to talk to others aswell.

If people are guilty of that, then so are the ones who defend the movies. I see the same style of posting on the DCEU fan side. It's a two way street. But most of us know how to discern fact from opinion, regardless of how it comes across.

Nobody is forcing them to talk to the negative people. Either use the power of free will and ignore the negative comments if they are that much of a bother. Or use the ignore feature. That's what it's there for. To ignore posts you don't want to see.

You don't have to put "IMO" after everything. I agree that's ridiculous. But the language put forth by people with your opinion, whether you deny it or not, attempts to state most of the current DCEU movies are some of the worst superhero movies ever made.

I would appreciate if people would stop the over-exaggeration. I shouldn't have to move to a new forum. That's what's led to such polarization of opinions, not just in movie discussions but in real-world issue discussions.

If people say so with such certainty, it's because they truly believe they are, so they state so with conviction. But that's not a declaration that it's a solid fact. It's still an opinion at the end of the day.

If you find this forum so negative to the point where you feel obligated to post just so it won't feel as bad here, then moving forums seems like the best option for you. That or just ignore them. Because it's not going to change. People are going to keep voicing their strong dislike for the DCEU.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Exactly.



If people are guilty of that, then so are the ones who defend the movies. It's a two way street. But most of us know how to discern fact from opinion, regardless of how it comes across.

Nobody is forcing them to talk to the negative people. Either use the power of free will and ignore the negative comments if they are that much of a bother. Or use the ignore feature. That's what it's there for. To ignore posts you don't want to see.



If people say so with such certainty, it's because they truly believe they are, so they state so with conviction. But that's not a declaration that it's a solid fact. It's still an opinion at the end of the day.

If you find this forum so negative to the point where you feel obligated to post just so it won't feel as bad here, then moving forums seems like the best option for you. That or just ignore them. Because it's not going to change. People are going to keep voicing their strong dislike for the DCEU.

But why? You don't like it and you said that, then why keep talking about it? Move on. Talk about stuff you do like, because endless negativity doesn't help anyone.

 

[The Joker]

But why? You don't like it and you said that, then why keep talking about it? Move on. Talk about stuff you do like, because endless negativity doesn't help anyone.

Because it's about characters I like. When I am a fan of something, I enjoy discussing the good stuff and the bad stuff related to them. This isn't a fan forum. It's a discussion forum. That means praise and criticism.

 

[metaphysician]

But why? You don't like it and you said that, then why keep talking about it? Move on. Talk about stuff you do like, because endless negativity doesn't help anyone.

Sure it does. Making sure as many people know beforehand that something sucks, makes it less likely they will spend money on it, now and in the future. This means less financial success for WB. . . and greater likelihood they will look at what their doing, and maybe try to change it to be something better.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Sure it does. Making sure as many people know beforehand that something sucks, makes it less likely they will spend money on it, now and in the future. This means less financial success for WB. . . and greater likelihood they will look at what their doing, and maybe try to change it to be something better.

And if Wonder Woman is any indication, it is working.

It certainly worked after Batman & Robin.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Because it's about characters I like. When I am a fan of something, I enjoy discussing the good stuff and the bad stuff related to them. This isn't a fan forum. It's a discussion forum. That means praise and criticism.

This 100%. This is a forum for people to debate their opinion, whether it be good or bad, in a respectful manner. That means not everyone will agree with you.

As for the topic at hand, I can see why the DC movies are not universally loved. I even liked both MoS and BvS, but I fully recognize their flaws and hope they get better over time.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Because it's about characters I like. When I am a fan of something, I enjoy discussing the good stuff and the bad stuff related to them. This isn't a fan forum. It's a discussion forum. That means praise and criticism.

You're sidestepping my point.

Sure it does. Making sure as many people know beforehand that something sucks, makes it less likely they will spend money on it, now and in the future. This means less financial success for WB. . . and greater likelihood they will look at what their doing, and maybe try to change it to be something better.

No, it really doesn't. The studio cares a lot more about box office then a bunch of complainers on the internet.

 

[The Joker]

This 100%. This is a forum for people to debate their opinion, whether it be good or bad, in a respectful manner. That means not everyone will agree with you.

Exactly.

You're sidestepping my point.

What is your point?

 

[jmc]

You don't have to put "IMO" after everything. I agree that's ridiculous. But the language put forth by people with your opinion, whether you deny it or not, attempts to state most of the current DCEU movies are some of the worst superhero movies ever made.

I would appreciate if people would stop the over-exaggeration. I shouldn't have to move to a new forum. That's what's led to such polarization of opinions, not just in movie discussions but in real-world issue discussions.

The issue is a series of film was released that for the first time in superhero film history genuinely split people over whether the films were in fact fundamentally good in the first place. There's always been some level of consensus with superhero films in the past and the quality of the finished product. Some people will enjoy something like Thor 2 but will acknowledge that it's hardly in the top tier of Marvel films. Conversely someone might dislike TDKR but acknowledge it's not a terrible movie overall. That generally makes for debate but hardly any real toxicity. For MoS, and to a lesser extent BvS, it got to the point where people were being labeled as either apologists or haters no matter how well they make their arguments. In hindsight I think what happened was the fans got split into two bases, those who wanted the characters values dissected and those who wanted the characters values embraced. WW did the later and the results speak for themselves. Passion runs riot when it comes to characters we all like, we all want the exact same thing - a good representation of the characters.

 

[Grommers]

The issue is a series of film was released that for the first time in superhero film history genuinely split people over whether the films were in fact fundamentally good in the first place. There's always been some level of consensus with superhero films in the past and the quality of the finished product. Some people will enjoy something like Thor 2 but will acknowledge that it's hardly in the top tier of Marvel films. Conversely someone might dislike TDKR but acknowledge it's not a terrible movie overall. That generally makes for debate but hardly any real toxicity. For MoS, and to a lesser extent BvS, it got to the point where people were being labeled as either apologists or haters no matter how well they make their arguments. In hindsight I think what happened was the fans got split into two bases, those who wanted the characters values dissected and those who wanted the characters values embraced. WW did the later and the results speak for themselves. Passion runs riot when it comes to characters we all like, we all want the exact same thing - a good representation of the characters.

I think part of the problem for me and why I try to post mostly in dceu forums now opposed to the supposedly neutral is this very reason though. There is good discussion (which you are good at...not everyone else on this forum is.) But the problem I find is when a counter point is produced, it's completely negated by the sheer "it didn't make a billion at the box office, or " rotten tomatoes score lulz".

I'm all for discussion.

 

[TripleJ]

I haven't seen WW, so i can't comment on that. But unless WW displays the same characteristics as BvS and MOS, i don't see why the explainations would be deemed invalid. I don't think there's a conspiracy against DC as a brand, but it's undeniable that both MOS and BvS made a few very controversial decisions regarding the two most iconic heroes ever, and it can definitely prompt some animosity that you would probably not have in a movie featuring less known/important characters.

This isn't to say that the movies don't have flaws, but i honestly believe there's more to it than simply being good or bad. When you take concepts that are directed to the masses and you present them in a way that contrasts with what people are used to, there's a big chance you're gonna have a negative impactive in the movie's reception.

Yup, that plays a vital role in how people judged the movies (doesn't mean BvS and MOS were flawless).

No one is going to complain if Wan takes great liberties with Aquaman...because people don't have any preconceived notions about the character.

Pretty much the same thing with WW. It's not the direct adaptation of any particular version, instead director and team pulled from various iterations of the character, and added some of their own ideas.

 

[metaphysician]

You're sidestepping my point.

No, it really doesn't. The studio cares a lot more about box office then a bunch of complainers on the internet.

We're not talking to the studio. We're talking to potential customers, both new visitors to this site, and to people in general in our lives. Which is to say, spreading the word of mouth about their movies, and the prospects for future ones.

And WB most definitely *does* care about word of mouth.

 

[MaceB]

Look, I'm skeptical that WB understands the DC comics property, it's fanbase, or the whole super hero genre. For me, I'd argue that it's much more likely that WB was responsible for BvS's failings than Snyder. These choices include:
- the terrible title
- the terrible premise
- Ben Affleck's casting
- Jesse's casting and comedic direction
- Doomsday
- Superman's loss

I remember reports where folks asked why Snyder was doing BvS instead of MoS 2, and he said something like "that's what the studio wants." Of course, that was a terrible choice from a narrative standpoint.

Meanwhile.. same thing for Suicide Squad. Reports of multiple cuts and overt studio micro managing. Ultimately, the film turns out to be a mess, jeopardizing another high-value property: The Joker. Instead of focusing on the characters, the film became a formulaic end-of-the-world scenario.

And now, we have Wonder Woman. A critical success. And everyone looks around and goes, "when's the sequel?" Only to find that no sequel was ever prepared for because the studio never expected a great showing in the first place. How likely is it that the same people who bet against WW will now aim to cash in on a sequel and ruin it?

I don't think that WB has a lot of interest in making a compelling DC cinematic universe, honestly. I think they want to milk the various DC properties for short term gains until it gets too tangled up, and then they ultimately reboot.
I just don't think they get the appeal.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I don't think that WB has a lot of interest in making a compelling DC cinematic universe, honestly. I think they want to milk the various DC properties for short term gains until it gets too tangled up, and then they ultimately reboot.
I just don't think they get the appeal.

That sounds like what they do with DC Comics. Marvel Comics too for that matter.