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New Venom Ongoing by Rick Remender and Tony Moore

Poor Betty has had a rough life. Her brother was involved with mobsters, and was killed by them. She was a perennial hostage for Spider-Man for years. Her husband/fiance Ned Leeds was killed as the Hobgoblin and it took years to get to the truth. And she's once been brainwashed and turned into an "extreme" gun-toting killer lady. In the time she has dated Flash, he's been rendered a vegetable, given partial amnesia, and just recently lost his legs.

I'd say him becoming Venom is just an above average weekend for her life.
This is exactly why I'm worried about Betty in all this. She's been written so haphazardly and dart to the wall that I just want to know what her attitude is going to be about this. That is if they even mention her in the situation, which I wouldn't be surprised if we never even saw her in this book with the way the Spider-Man book (s) are now.
 
This is exactly why I'm worried about Betty in all this. She's been written so haphazardly and dart to the wall that I just want to know what her attitude is going to be about this. That is if they even mention her in the situation, which I wouldn't be surprised if we never even saw her in this book with the way the Spider-Man book (s) are now.

It would be sloppy editing to have Flash be dating her in ASM and then to completely abandon her in the VENOM series. Then again...it isn't Marvel editing if it isn't sloppy and contradictory. We'll see how the .1 issue goes that sets all this up. Dan Slott is still laying the foundation for Remender. Hopefully Betty won't die or something. Peter is running out of expendable supporting cast members who aren't also enemies.

Either Betty would freak out, or she could look at all her crazy life situations as something to empower her a little. She's gone through all that as well as being J.J.'s secretary for years and she's more or less come out of it in one piece. She could be akin to a Lois Lane, only without being a B**** and being able to fire an uzi if she ever had to. If anything it might be fun if Flash was like, "no, this is official military stuff, can't tell you" and she tried to keep an eye on her own or expose the story. Or, heck, she could be assigned as a military reporter to cover his exploits (or even spin them for Flash's superiors, who assume she'd do that or something). It actually could be a very interesting subplot for her if handled correctly. The army would want her to write positively about it, and Betty would be more out to protect Flash than them.

Of course, if handled poorly she could be forgotten, hostage bait or mauled. :(
 
In fairness to Marvel, this book is a spin-off from AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, in particular it's upcoming .1 issue. And Venom has been capable of selling comics before. The problem is the last time his sales were anything to write home about was at best about six years ago (if not about 14 years ago), and this isn't the same incarnation. The bigger problem is while AMAZING SPIDER-MAN is doing modestly well (every weekly/bi-weekly issues averages no lower than 50-53k sales and occasionally spikes higher due to promotions), that title has been incapable of sustaining any spin off series. Even random side mini's of supporting characters do not do well. SPIDER-GIRL had a lower debut than HAWKEYE & MOCKINGBIRD, and that title was canceled at issue #8. Rick Remender may have a "cult" following for Franken-Castle, but it was hardly a sales juggernaut. In fact he likely got away with that run because sales were SO BAD he was allowed to "go nuts" by editorial.

I don't think it will sell well or last long, either. In particular, I am aware that a #1 issue for $3.99 has pretty much killed every franchise in the cradle unless it was the launch, or relaunch, of an Avengers series by Bendis or Brubaker, or a relaunch of something X-Men related. 2010 is a graveyard for canceled or dying $3.99 launches of $2.99 comic series. David Gabriel claimed that would end in 2011, but it hasn't.

No. There is no fairness to Marvel here. This is a new concept that Marvel hasn't even tried out yet in any shape or form and are giving it an ongoing. They could have at least developed Flash Thompson taking the Venom Symbiote for like an arc or a mini before giving him a mini. Nope, they're just introducing him in a .1 issue (completely ignoring the point of the .1 issues to begin with) and going from there. Lame. No body was asking for a Venom ongoing.

Also, I think Remender was allowed to go nuts with the Punisher not because of low sales, but because Marvel knew they dug themselves in a hole with the character regarding his age. They refused to take the Vietnam War angle out of the character's history and we now have a Punisher that is 60 years old doing things that my 45 year old dad cannot do. I think the point of Franken-Castle was to de-age the Punisher (Marvel has come out and said that he is physically in his mid-30's now) so that they can have a Punisher that is physically capable of doing the things he does while keeping his origins intact.
 
Flash is a red herring, the new Venom will be Irvin Forbush. ;)
 
You know, the more I've thought about this today the more excited I become for this. The $4 price tag for the first issue sucks but I'm really intrigued. I'm actually excited to give this a shot. Here's hoping it's good.

And while I'm usually along with Dread on the "no new book lasts a year" thing, which is partially why I seldom bother with them, I have a feeling this one could be a fairly decent run. I'm thinking 20 issues at least.
 
*The heck's up with the triple post?! I only hit the button once!
 
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No. There is no fairness to Marvel here. This is a new concept that Marvel hasn't even tried out yet in any shape or form and are giving it an ongoing. They could have at least developed Flash Thompson taking the Venom Symbiote for like an arc or a mini before giving him a mini. Nope, they're just introducing him in a .1 issue (completely ignoring the point of the .1 issues to begin with) and going from there. Lame. No body was asking for a Venom ongoing.

Also, I think Remender was allowed to go nuts with the Punisher not because of low sales, but because Marvel knew they dug themselves in a hole with the character regarding his age. They refused to take the Vietnam War angle out of the character's history and we now have a Punisher that is 60 years old doing things that my 45 year old dad cannot do. I think the point of Franken-Castle was to de-age the Punisher (Marvel has come out and said that he is physically in his mid-30's now) so that they can have a Punisher that is physically capable of doing the things he does while keeping his origins intact.

I wouldn't call this a "new concept". It's a relaunch of VENOM. Relaunches often have new angles, some of which may have little to do with the actual franchise. NEW WARRIORS and NAMOR have gotten relaunches like that. It usually fails, honestly. But it isn't a "new concept". That would be something like HIT-MONKEY (which also sank like a stone).

Marvel has abandoned what was to be their thing for .1. It was originally supposed to be a jumping on point, but some titles are treating it like an extra issue, or an annual, or even a fill-in issue that would have otherwise been a random one shot back in 2007. At least the ASM .1 issue will probably be important.

I do admit no one was asking for a new VENOM series. But Marvel never does what their customers want. In fact I think their entire editorial and commercial policy is doing the opposite of what buyers want. I can't fathom why sales are falling. Surely ignoring what your customers want and insulting them with veiled insults in half of your press releases and interviews is the best business model ever. Every business does that. :whatever:

I suppose you're right about Punisher, but the fact that sales were usually around 21k an issue likely was a small push.

Flash is a red herring, the new Venom will be Irvin Forbush. ;)

No, I think you hit it on the head before. Venom is Red Herring, I tell ya!

http://files.blog-city.com/files/J05/141414/p/f/redherring.jpg

Look at that smile. He's totally behind the symbiote!

You know, the more I've thought about this today the more excited I become for this. The $4 price tag for the first issue sucks but I'm really intrigued. I'm actually excited to give this a shot. Here's hoping it's good.

And while I'm usually along with Dread on the "no new book lasts a year" thing, which is partially why I seldom bother with them, I have a feeling this one could be a fairly decent run. I'm thinking 20 issues at least.

It is very unrealistic to expect any new launch of Marvel's to last 20 issues. I don't think the relaunch of NEW MUTANTS has hit issue 20 yet. Marvel has had a slew of titles end before issue 12. It has even had many end before issue 9. CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND MI-13 was one of few that made it 15 issues and an annual in recent years. Especially since no Spider-Man spin off has sold very well in a very long time. SPIDER-GIRL had a poor debut. Many of the JACKPOT or ANTI-VENOM mini's fell off the Top 100 faster than an issue of SABRINA THE TEENAGE WITCH. And Anti-Venom is actually Eddie Brock, the "Venom" who once was all over the place in the 90's.

I wouldn't claim any comic would last to issue 20, or even issue 10, before I see how it sells.
 
No. There is no fairness to Marvel here. This is a new concept that Marvel hasn't even tried out yet in any shape or form and are giving it an ongoing. They could have at least developed Flash Thompson taking the Venom Symbiote for like an arc or a mini before giving him a mini. Nope, they're just introducing him in a .1 issue (completely ignoring the point of the .1 issues to begin with) and going from there. Lame. No body was asking for a Venom ongoing.

Also, I think Remender was allowed to go nuts with the Punisher not because of low sales, but because Marvel knew they dug themselves in a hole with the character regarding his age. They refused to take the Vietnam War angle out of the character's history and we now have a Punisher that is 60 years old doing things that my 45 year old dad cannot do. I think the point of Franken-Castle was to de-age the Punisher (Marvel has come out and said that he is physically in his mid-30's now) so that they can have a Punisher that is physically capable of doing the things he does while keeping his origins intact.

Should Comic companies only be reactive rather than proactive? it doesn't matter if people were asking for a Venom comic or not, what matters is that creators bring their A game and produce the best comic they can.

And according to a recent interview with Remender the Venom: Licence to Kill series is one of the most downloaded series, so SOME demand must be there.
 
It is very unrealistic to expect any new launch of Marvel's to last 20 issues. Especially since no Spider-Man spin off has sold very well in a very long time. SPIDER-GIRL had a poor debut. Many of the JACKPOT or ANTI-VENOM mini's fell off the Top 100 faster than an issue of SABRINA THE TEENAGE WITCH. And Anti-Venom is actually Eddie Brock, the "Venom" who once was all over the place in the 90's.

I wouldn't claim any comic would last to issue 20, or even issue 10, before I see how it sells.

It's true that Spider-Man can't support a spin off but I don't think people will necessarilly view this as a Spider-Man spin off. Venom as an idea has branched beyond Spider-Man (and had a long time ago) and the whole Thunderbolts then Dark Avengers deal with Mac helped that out. There will be people not related to the Spider-Man fandom who would be willing to give this a shot. Not to mention there's still a lot of 90's fandom out there who still cling to the idea of a cool Venom. It sucks it isn't Eddie but this is a very new and different direction that is interesting.

As for other relaunches failing, I think Spider-Girl's failing because despite her origin/status quo change in Amazing Spider-Man, we all know it's still Arachne and if you weren't already a fan I doubt you'd care (you be a general term here). As for Anti-Venom and Jackpot, they're overpriced minis that often mean nothing to the longterm and just drain your wallets. This is an ongoing which could have some lingering story and is betterpriced (after the first issue).

Also, those three examples were created and launched during the more questionable BND era and there's a lot of fans who stayed away from anything even remotely BND. In Spider-Girl's situation her story started during that era though the series came later. There seems to be a lot of forgiving for the Spider-Man universe since Slott's taken over so more anti-BNDers may be more interested in giving a Venom series a shot, especially since, unlike Spider-Girl, it has no BND connections whatsoever. It's also dealing with a classic character with no real history with an alter ego in Flash Thompson, so a lot of older readers who may have been burnt by Spider-Man at one point or another may still feel some affection toward him.

So all in all I think this is a good time for Venom to come out, though I think it WILL be hurt by the $4 first issue, and debuting him in the .1 issue will also hurt it. The big factors (in my head) are #1 can it last beyond those two hurdles to gain a readership by issue 2? and #2 can Remender write the story well enough to keep that readership?

I think #2 will be no problem. Remender writes great street level warfare types of comics, as seen in his Punisher series leading up to Frankencastle (I've not read any of the rest of that run), but #1's the real question. We'll see how it plays out.
 
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169d6e0605bdc188c6c9b67df845f2eb1d009f79.jpg
 
As obvious an option as he was, why had I not noticed or thought of Deadpool as Venom?
 
Should Comic companies only be reactive rather than proactive? it doesn't matter if people were asking for a Venom comic or not, what matters is that creators bring their A game and produce the best comic they can.

And according to a recent interview with Remender the Venom: Licence to Kill series is one of the most downloaded series, so SOME demand must be there.

There is probably some demand, sure.

And welcome to SHH, Paul Nolan!

It's true that Spider-Man can't support a spin off but I don't think people will necessarilly view this as a Spider-Man spin off. Venom as an idea has branched beyond Spider-Man (and had a long time ago) and the whole Thunderbolts then Dark Avengers deal with Mac helped that out. There will be people not related to the Spider-Man fandom who would be willing to give this a shot. Not to mention there's still a lot of 90's fandom out there who still cling to the idea of a cool Venom. It sucks it isn't Eddie but this is a very new and different direction that is interesting.

As for other relaunches failing, I think Spider-Girl's failing because despite her origin/status quo change in Amazing Spider-Man, we all know it's still Arachne and if you weren't already a fan I doubt you'd care (you be a general term here). As for Anti-Venom and Jackpot, they're overpriced minis that often mean nothing to the longterm and just drain your wallets. This is an ongoing which could have some lingering story and is betterpriced (after the first issue).

Also, those three examples were created and launched during the more questionable BND era and there's a lot of fans who stayed away from anything even remotely BND. In Spider-Girl's situation her story started during that era though the series came later. There seems to be a lot of forgiving for the Spider-Man universe since Slott's taken over so more anti-BNDers may be more interested in giving a Venom series a shot, especially since, unlike Spider-Girl, it has no BND connections whatsoever. It's also dealing with a classic character with no real history with an alter ego in Flash Thompson, so a lot of older readers who may have been burnt by Spider-Man at one point or another may still feel some affection toward him.

So all in all I think this is a good time for Venom to come out, though I think it WILL be hurt by the $4 first issue, and debuting him in the .1 issue will also hurt it. The big factors (in my head) are #1 can it last beyond those two hurdles to gain a readership by issue 2? and #2 can Remender write the story well enough to keep that readership?

I think #2 will be no problem. #1's the real question. We'll see how it plays out.

To be honest, sales for BIG TIME haven't really remained any higher than ASM's sales during the BND era. Heck, the last time the sales spiked really high was during OMIT, which got "watching a train wreck" attention (or the attention that an EIC gets when he draws a comic). So the implication that BIG TIME has gotten people who have sat out ASM since 2008 isn't technically true. It may be true for a handful of us, but not to any major degree. Issue #648 jumped to sales of 77k, which ASM hadn't seen since issue #617 - but then slipped back to 52k (it's usual range) two weeks later. Only one issue shipped in December, and it was almost 57k - not too far removed from the pre-BT issues a few weeks/months earlier. Regardless of the increase in quality as well as writer stability, ASM's sales haven't gone up, at least in the direct market yet. If downloads and subscriptions have risen, we don't get that data, and quite frankly given how often David Gabriel says someone was misquoted, I hardly believe anything Marvel says.

You do have a point that Venom perhaps remains more of a draw than Jackpot or Spider-Girl (who is Arana Relaunched, basically). In October, CARNAGE #1 surprised me with sales of over 47k and an appearance in the Top 25 - a rarity for an ASM spin off these days. Granted, it is a bi-monthly five issue mini series that is more about Spidey, Iron Man, and some Maximum Carnage leftovers, but that's still the strongest debut of an ASM spin off mini in years. By December, though, sales had slipped to under 33k and it was barely in the Top 50. It might barely be in the Top 100 by the time it is done, and it's a mini that really, no one asked for. Carnage is past his prime. He was past his prime when Sentry slew him back in 2004-2005. And Remender probably did earn some "cult cred" for Franken-Castle. Perhaps at least 20,000 readers might try it just for that.

However, you have to imagine that most spin-offs, if they are lucky, attract the attention of maybe half of the core title's audience. Even in the best of times, that was usually a safe estimate. I actually think promotion in a .1 issue is the best VENOM could expect. It's an extra issue of ASM that month written by Dan Slott, and it isn't $3.99.

(For the record, I was a tad wrong about NEW MUTANTS - this week it shipped it's 21st issue, and will likely hang in there. It's a relaunch of a C-List X-Men title and has done pretty well, albeit being held up for bits by X-crossovers. But that's nothing new. Technically, AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE was helped along for years by Avengers crossovers.)

Still, I wouldn't expect VENOM to last 20 issues these days, when surviving for 10 is often a Herculean labor. While the name is VENOM, it's really a Flash Thompson series, and it will remain to be see how willing ASM completists are to support him. #1 issues are kept expensive because Marvel cynically knows it is the only issue anyone buys due to collectors who buy every #1 issue and retailers who sometimes overestimate demand. Second issue drops are often anywhere between 10-20% even for healthy titles. Then from there you hope the sales remain level, otherwise it will be in cancellation range by issue five, six, or eight. If the first issue sells like 50k and then remains above 30k for a few issues, then maybe I'd figure it might last past a year. But not before. Marvel is having a hard enough time selling a main Wolverine book these days. Not even NEW AVENGERS sells over 68k anymore.
 
I like Moore and I'm about 50/50 on Remender, but I refuse to get behind this ******ed concept of the Venom symbiote switching to a new host every couple years. Venom is Eddie Brock and the symbiote. Bring that back and I'll give it a try. Until then, nope.

I endorse this post.
 
The preview looked alright. It seems clear that Remender does not have quite the same "voice" as Slott does with Thompson - his Thompson is more of a "go AMERICA" type soldier with all the fist pumping. In a way his Thompson reminds me of a lighter version of John Walker (Marvel's favorite violent conservative). I might get it, although it helps that next week is a very small week for me. If I got VENOM #1, that'd only be a 4 comic week.
 

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