Justice League Next version of Superman needs to be powered down...a lot!!!

[damian99uk]

I didn't see him as being suddenly over powered, i took it that in his momentarily confusion he was finally fighting without holding back. They make reference to that in a lot of Superman comics Batman even thinks it in the Dark Knight Returns when they fight

 

[auditor]

Superman's greatest strength is his ability to inspire others to want to be good people. I'd say Zack Snyder's version is considerably underpowered. He's just a puncher. Not that much different from the movie version of Steppenwolf really when you think about it.

 

[FunkMiller]

Superman's greatest strength is his ability to inspire others to want to be good people. I'd say Zack Snyder's version is considerably underpowered. He's just a puncher. Not that much different from the movie version of Steppenwolf really when you think about it.

This. Written in Kryptonian, in 52 foot high letters.

 

[heatvision38]

“I’ve kidnapped all the people you love in the world Superman, and imprisoned them in a lead lined box somewhere secret. If you don’t do exactly what I say, I’ll slaughter them.”

There. Done.

Then Superman uses his x-ray vision to look for anything big enough he can't see through. That actually was in a story once, that bombs were hidden in lead-lined boxes in Metropolis, so instead of trying to find the boxes themselves, he just used his x-ray vision on Metropolis as a whole, and then was able to pick out what he couldn't see through and knew those were the hidden bombs.

But yeah, the general principle you are going with, I agree. To get at Superman isn't just about physically defeating him, it's about testing him emotionally and morally (like during the Metropolis battle in Superman II: "I've found his weakness. The people, he cares for them"... paraphrased).

 

[heatvision38]

I think trying to depower Superman is a terrible idea, and is an example of the lack of creativity that has dragged the character down in recent years.

They tried the whole depowered thing in the first season of the JL cartoon, and that version utterly sucked. It wasn't until they powered him up (and didn't make him look 60 years old) that George Newburn's Supes really took off.

Very true.

 

[heatvision38]

Yeah I don't think it's that hard really. Lead is a weakness for him because his powers are impervious to it. He can't see through it. He can't burn it with his heat vision, etc. So if someone were hiding kryptonite in a box of lead, he wouldn't be able to detect it.

Magic is a weakness for him too and could conceivably trap him.

Or there's always fighting a guy who has strength to deal with him, such as a Lantern Corp. member because the Power Rings have strength enough to deal with Superman. Once again, a Power Ring can split an atom. It doesn't require a lot of energy, just effort.

He can't see through lead and kryptonite energy can be contained by lead, but that's because of the denseness of lead. But Superman can burn it with his heat vision. Lead doesn't have some special property that works against Superman more than it does anything else.

 

[heatvision38]

I think that overpowering Superman is a terrible idea, and is an example of lack of creativity that has dragged the character down in past years.

They tried the whole overpowered thing since the silver age comic books, and that version utterly sucked. It wasn't until they powered him down (and didn't make him look like a nonsensical teen-fueled power fantasy) that the character really took off.

It's finding the right balance. They've gone into extremes in both directions. Sneezing out star systems, time travel, pushing planets with ease, that's too far. Being knocked out by electricity or by things that don't kill the other heroes (sans WW, MM, and possibly GL), that's going too far in the other direction like they did in JL Season 1. It's finding the right balance.

 

[heatvision38]

Also, not for nothing, I don't think power-level is the primary problem with the character. Characterization is. Warners seems to have gotten in their mind that there is a need to make Superman dark, conflicted, broody, and tragically flawed to make him relatable. Audiences don't need that. Look at how well Captain America has been received. In addition, the best on screen portrayal of Superman since Reeve has been Tyler Hoechlin. The reason why? CHARACTERIZATION. It is the Superman we know and love.

This article explains it perfectly.

Depowering or upping his power isn't the answer. The answer is simply writing a character that audiences enjoy watching.

Eh, Hoechlin's Superman was solid, but kind of 2 dimensional and I think people responded to him as strongly as they did because he was very different than Cavill's Superman. Personally, the reaction to Hoechlin's Superman felt like a prisoner of the moment reaction to a more halcyon Superman...

And then they undid any of that goodwill by having him lose to a far less experienced Supergirl because... reasons.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I think that overpowering Superman is a terrible idea, and is an example of lack of creativity that has dragged the character down in past years.

They tried the whole overpowered thing since the silver age comic books, and that version utterly sucked. It wasn't until they powered him down (and didn't make him look like a nonsensical teen-fueled power fantasy) that the character really took off.

Superman was probably at his most successful in the 60s when he was at his most powerful. So I would say he took off long before the obsession with depowering him kicked in. I mean, it's not as if Superman was this obscure, unknown character that nobody cared about until John Byrne came along.

 

[FunkMiller]

Then Superman uses his x-ray vision to look for anything big enough he can't see through. That actually was in a story once, that bombs were hidden in lead-lined boxes in Metropolis, so instead of trying to find the boxes themselves, he just used his x-ray vision on Metropolis as a whole, and then was able to pick out what he couldn't see through and knew those were the hidden bombs.

See, what you’re describing there, sounds like a pretty decent sequence for a Superman film, eh? Shows Clark’s level of intelligence, informs the audience that he’s clever enough to work out how to counter the villain’s plan. Makes him more three dimensional than just a big punching machine.

Here’s another:

“Here Superman! I’ve planted six nuclear dirty bombs across the planet in major cities, all set to go off at the same time. Do what I say, or I’ll detonate them, killing millions.”

Or, how about:

“Hey Superman! I’m going to convince fellow billionaire businessman - and my best friend - Bruce Wayne that you’re a threat to humanity, because I’m secretly an evil son of a *****, and I also know he’s actually The Batman. I can pit you against one another, because he trusts me, and you’re a big dumb blue Boy Scout.”

...almost sounds like a plot to a Batman V Superman movie. One with a natural connection between the three principal players, that adds to the drama, increases the weight of the conflict, and leads to a moment of catharsis, realisation and redemption.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I have choked unconscious people a lot stronger than me through proper technique.

It seems like an unconscious person would be fairly easy to choke.

 

[DeadlyDiarrhea]

In the context of this discussion, I still haven’t quite found a compelling reason for why Superman needs to be vastly more powerful than the rest of the Justice League, as was depicted in the movie.

 

[Consona]

Superman's greatest strength is his ability to inspire others to want to be good people. I'd say Zack Snyder's version is considerably underpowered. He's just a puncher. Not that much different from the movie version of Steppenwolf really when you think about it.

I don't know why people still don't get that those films are a journey. He's not a complete, finished character, he's not supposed to be.

Plus saying he's "just a puncher"... WTF?

Why did not he punch those bullies, the guy who bothered the waitress? All these cherry-picky misleading arguments.

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't know why people still don't get that those films are a journey. He's not a complete, finished character, he's not supposed to be.

Plus saying he's "just a puncher"... WTF?

Why did not he punch those bullies, the guy who bothered the waitress? All these cherry-picky misleading arguments.

Perhaps, while the movies tried to position Superman as more than just a mopey, brooding puncher, their execution of such was too poor for it to hit home? Maybe the ‘journey’ is not well presented enough to make it compelling?

 

[TheTarkKnight]

When you throw Darkseid into the mix, then his new power level will be adequate. He is “Super”man. You don’t downgrade Superman. I agree with the argument that you need to upgrade his foes.

 

[kingcharmingman]

Mos was good setup for superman,
But bvs was too busy promoting other characters that it was not focused as mos sequel, superman was underdeveloped as character and they killed him.

In JL as his third sequel, superman was absent about half the movie, his character development was communicated through narration from other characters, he was resurrected and suddenly he become brand new version of superman. No sufficient explanation or character building, just happen like that, a soft reboot.

Thats why it was called step into right direction from a wrong direction.

I like justice league as a standalone film,
Just enjoy justice league without thinking of bvs,
Just pretend that superman was great and loved by earth unanimously before his death,
Then JL will be fun enjoyable film.

If i see justice league as sequel to bvs and mos, it was a mess!

 

[Lantern Venom]

Any villain that just poses a physical threat to Superman is boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Boring.

There has to be a psychological dimension, otherwise it’s just one superpowered meathead hitting another superpowered meathead.
.

I'd contend that Doomsday was very interesting, even with such an abbreviated backstory and no dialogue. Supes couldn't beat him with strength, speed, heat vision, or freeze breath. He overcame Doomsday with selfless bravery.


The problem is that once a pure powerhouse like that is used in a movie franchise, it closes a creative door for the next outing. Audiences don't want villainous threats to seem refried.

 

[Consona]

I'd contend that Doomsday was very interesting, even with such an abbreviated backstory and no dialogue. Supes couldn't beat him with strength, speed, heat vision, or freeze breath. He overcame Doomsday with selfless bravery.

Yep, Doomsday fight was Superman 101, don't understand people don't see it. Superman knowing very well DD was stronger than him (the most amazing heat vision duel) had to grab a thing that's deadly to him and weakens him, had to put all his selfish concerns aside just to take this atomic bomb resistant creature that could destroy anything down.
Strongest cinematic Superman moment. BvS

The problem is that once a pure powerhouse like that is used in a movie franchise, it closes a creative door for the next outing. Audiences don't want villainous threats to seem refried.

I think it's a good thing, it creates a pressure to step up your villain writing, be more inventive, etc.

 

[Skrilla31]

Ivan Drago was thought to be 'stronger' but Rocky still knocked him out.

There should be no such thing as a villain that's too strong for Superman.

 

[Prettyricky]

Dont you takeaway from what superman is though if you depower or power down him? Hes pretty much a child fantasy where you cant make me go to bed because Im superman. Sure you can have him fight other villians on his level where they can hurt each other like a zod but him fighting low level terrorist or mobs will never happen on screen. Thats always going to be the issue with his character because the audience never relates him as a everyday human with weakenesses.

 

[Bren]

I've changed my mind... Lift his colleagues, lift his adversaries... Don't dilute or castrate Superman

I relate to Superman as someone who tries to help all the time. He helps with stopping supervillians and meteors from wiping out the planet, I help an old person cross the road, and push a guy's car that's died in an intersection to safety.

We both do what we can, but sometimes I'm lazy, or selfish and don't want to, or it's 'too much trouble' - he doesn't drop his game.
So yeah, I can relate (and be inspired by) Superman to lift myself.

I don't want a Joe Schmoe good guy with Superpowers. I want Superman.

 

[Boom]

I suppose my question is this. If you establish that Superman is the strongest being on the planet (or universe, for that matter), why does it matter that he be impervious to nuclear bombs or that he can push a planet out of its orbital rotation? Why does he have to be that strong?

What's the issue here? Is it that Superman has to be the strongest character in the DC canon, or that he has to be limitless? Because you can easily accomplish the former without having to do the latter.

 

[metaphysician]

Dont you takeaway from what superman is though if you depower or power down him? Hes pretty much a child fantasy where you cant make me go to bed because Im superman.

No, you don't, because that is not what Superman is. Superman is about two things, fundamentally:

1. "What if vast power were held by an ordinary, decent person who just wants to help others?"

2. "What if, when a hopeless disaster happens, there actually were someone who could help?"

Neither of those requires him to be more powerful than everyone else in the world. They merely require that Superman be powerful *enough* to do the impossible and to refuse temptation to use his powers selfishly.

 

[Skrilla31]

Dont you takeaway from what superman is though if you depower or power down him? Hes pretty much a child fantasy where you cant make me go to bed because Im superman. Sure you can have him fight other villians on his level where they can hurt each other like a zod but him fighting low level terrorist or mobs will never happen on screen. Thats always going to be the issue with his character because the audience never relates him as a everyday human with weakenesses.

He was raised in Middle America, works two grueling jobs and has a tangled relationship with his girlfriend.

Sounds like an 'everday human' to me.

 

[Matt]

This is me just spitballing...but if the problem with Superman is that the "every day human" cannot relate to him, is it not counter-intuitive to take the Snyder route and make him a god whose detachment from humanity is his defining trait?

That said, the whole relatability thing is silly. I cannot inherently relate to a multi-billionaire playboy who dresses up in a tech suit to fight crime. I can't relate to a super-suave British secret agent who drowns himself in booze and women. I can't relate to a laser sword wielding space wizard who can move things and control people with his mind.

Movies and fictional characters, by their nature, are unrelatable. If movies were like every day life, we wouldn't watch them. Relatability is an excuse someone came up with to knock Superman/justify making him "dark and gritty." But its really not all that necessary. If you want a character, be it an alien god or a teenager whose best friend is a scientist with a time machine, to be relatable...you simply write them as a three dimensional character whom audiences can find endearing and root for. It really is that simple. Someone in the most absurd of conditions can be relatable with good writing.