Nice guys finish last

[Schlosser85]

Of course you can be a nice guy without being a pushover, it's called being a normal person.

Acting like a badass just to try to impress everyone isn't being a "real man", it's being immature and demonstrating that you're too insecure not to put on a macho act.

 

[The Question]

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In addition to the above post: The idea that "Nice Guys Finish Last" is an excuse people make for not taking action in their lives that allows them to pity themselves instead of doing the things they need to do to turn their lives around. Yes, there are certain things you'll only get by being untrustoworthy or selfish, but falling into a state of self pity over that is a pointless defeatist attitude.

In addition to these two responses to the initial statement:

[YT]gF6dyZ5AEnM[/YT]

Saying "Nice Guys Finish Last" is basically saying "I didn't get what I want and instead of making the best of what I have and trying to take charge of my life I'm gonna whine about it." Besides, a lot of the things "nice guys" don't end up getting aren't as great as they think, and the things they really need are things that you need to be nice to get, like stable, healthy relationships with other people.

 

[NickSox]

See that's something I don't understand. My friend, a female, said girls want the bad guys to be nice to them and not be pushovers, but my question is, why does the guy have to be bad? Why can't he be nice and not be a pushover?

This reminds me of a thread I made about judging the real side of a person. Does it matter how a guy acts if he's nice to the girl. Meaning, if he's a sweetheart to the girl, but a jerk to everyone else, does that even matter, or do girls look for the guy that treats her like he treats everyone else?

It's easy to be nice and not a pushover, the two aren't mutually exclusive. And on the second point I think it has to be both. If a guy is nice to the girl then goes out and acts like a d**k to everyone else, he's a d**k. You have to be genuine with it. At least that's how it's worked with me, my fiancee obviously sees me interact outside of her and sees the same attitude and demeanor I display with her.

 

[Anita18]

Saying "Nice Guys Finish Last" is basically saying "I didn't get what I want and instead of making the best of what I have and trying to take charge of my life I'm gonna whine about it." Besides, a lot of the things "nice guys" don't end up getting aren't as great as they think, and the things they really need are things that you need to be nice to get, like stable, healthy relationships with other people.

Exactly. If someone is going to complain about how he never gets what he wants because he's a nice guy, he's not a nice guy. He's a whiner who thinks being passive is being nice.

I can't really imagine anything that a genuinely nice guy could truly whine about not getting. If you get screwed over at work, my or my bf's first reaction would be to leave the company entirely and take our talents elsewhere. Not to whine about it and then take more abuse. That's being a pushover. If you don't get the hot chick, who cares. If she wants a bad boy, you weren't right for each other anyway. Avoid the drama, I think that's a win/win.

 

[The Question]

Exactly. If someone is going to complain about how he never gets what he wants because he's a nice guy, he's not a nice guy. He's a whiner who thinks being passive is being nice.

I can't really imagine anything that a genuinely nice guy could truly whine about not getting. If you get screwed over at work, my or my bf's first reaction would be to leave the company entirely and take our talents elsewhere. Not to whine about it and then take more abuse. That's being a pushover. If you don't get the hot chick, who cares. If she wants a bad boy, you weren't right for each other anyway. Avoid the drama, I think that's a win/win.

And, that attitude implies that what you really wanted was the sex or the status of having a girlfriend, not a closer relationship with someone you care about and have some kind of emotional connection with.

And that's not very nice.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

See that's something I don't understand. My friend, a female, said girls want the bad guys to be nice to them and not be pushovers, but my question is, why does the guy have to be bad? Why can't he be nice and not be a pushover?

I think people here are taking the word "nice" and "bad" a bit too literally, if that makes sense. I find girls do get a little fixated on "fixing" certain guys (me in particular), but I wouldn't describe the guys (me, lol t as "bad". For example one girl I hang with makes me leave the room to smoke pot, and she has made it very clear to me she disapproves of this habit. Ironically my Dad went through something similar with my Mom, who also didn't like pot. I'd keep asking myself though "why even bother coming over when you know how I like to relax?" So I think when people talk about women liking "bad boys" really what you're seeing is that confidence often comes with an attitude that certain aspects of me/someone are not going to change simply to "get" a woman to like them. I'm not arguing though that changing yourself is a bad thing, but that if you approach a woman as a blank slate and simply try to be everything she says she wants you really offer no avenue for a relationship to build out of that. If you're not able to make your own choices and stick by them, whether they're "bad" or "nice", you're probably not going to attract anyone.

That said, most character traits are pretty neutral. I wouldn't describe them as bad or nice. To pirate Anita's example, computer programming is pretty neutral. He's not computer programming a death machine to wipe out humanity, so he's not "bad". He's also not creating Optimus Prime to defend us from the evil Decepticons, so it's not really "nice" either. It just is who he is. Now if Anita thought computer programming was stupid and computers were for lame-os, I would guess this would be some sticking point for her. Or perhaps this'll make a little more sense if I use a more cliche' example: bikers. If anyone gets saddled with a "bad boy" reputation, it's bikers. The truth is the ones I know or have known are pretty normal dudes. One of them is a drama teacher, and couldn't be more of a pris if he started wearing an ascot while he was teaching. Now I could miss my mark but I'd imagine most of their wives and girlfriends would have to enjoy riding a motorcycle as a prerequisite. So while they all dress like they've come from the future to kill Sarah Connor, they're actually quite nice people who roam in a particular social circle. So they aren't really "bad" or "nice", and we'll say (for sake of argument) that women like Anita who prefer computer geeks probably wouldn't be attracted to the whole Biker crowd.

 

[SpideyVille]

You're right, Optimus. I guess in some cases, people consider "nice guy" to mean the ideal guy to some extent, while "bad guy" would be the kind of guy your parents probably wouldn't approve of, making him the non-ideal guy. I mean, how many times have we've seen movies about girls who choose the rebel out of love as opposed to the Harvard graduate that her parents want her to marry. Of course, the women in those kind of movies tend to be ones that are tired of their lifestyles and want a change. On paper, one may seem better than the other, but then they're also that little thing called chemistry, and who you think you fit better with.

I think what it ultimately comes down to is a bad choice of girls to go after for the "nice guy" who feels like life is unfair because he can't get the girl who he wants. Heck, I have this friend who told me the same thing, that I pick the wrong girls and that no matter how great of a guy I can be, I'll never get with them because I'm simply not what they're looking for unless I try to be that guy, which in most cases is hard for anyone to do since it won't exactly be a natural act for them.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think the other thing people have to consider is perception = reality. Let's say you have three people. Guy A, Guy B and Girl C. Guy A is a "nice guy", and Girl C is dating Guy B. Guy B is held up at work and doesn't pick up Girl C from the airport so she calls Guy A. The girl goes on and on about how much of a bad boyfriend Guy B is because venting is a pretty natural human tendency in those situations. So Guy A only hears "this guy doesn't treat me right" and thinks "I'd never do that". He doesn't consider that Guy B is more than a 2-Dimensional object in this scenario because he's not there to share his side of things, the story is going through a one sided filter.

 

[Anita18]

And, that attitude implies that what you really wanted was the sex or the status of having a girlfriend, not a closer relationship with someone you care about and have some kind of emotional connection with.

And that's not very nice.

Well I think hotness is one of the initial reasons why a guy would go after a girl in the first place, but making generalizations about what ALL women are like if you get rejected is not very nice. t:

That said, most character traits are pretty neutral. I wouldn't describe them as bad or nice. To pirate Anita's example, computer programming is pretty neutral. He's not computer programming a death machine to wipe out humanity, so he's not "bad". He's also not creating Optimus Prime to defend us from the evil Decepticons, so it's not really "nice" either. It just is who he is. Now if Anita thought computer programming was stupid and computers were for lame-os, I would guess this would be some sticking point for her. Or perhaps this'll make a little more sense if I use a more cliche' example: bikers. If anyone gets saddled with a "bad boy" reputation, it's bikers. The truth is the ones I know or have known are pretty normal dudes. One of them is a drama teacher, and couldn't be more of a pris if he started wearing an ascot while he was teaching. Now I could miss my mark but I'd imagine most of their wives and girlfriends would have to enjoy riding a motorcycle as a prerequisite. So while they all dress like they've come from the future to kill Sarah Connor, they're actually quite nice people who roam in a particular social circle. So they aren't really "bad" or "nice", and we'll say (for sake of argument) that women like Anita who prefer computer geeks probably wouldn't be attracted to the whole Biker crowd.

Sure the analogy works, but I was using computer programming as an example of what most people find boring but I find interesting.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

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[Optimus_Prime_]

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[Optimus_Prime_]

Sure the analogy works, but I was using computer programming as an example of what most people find boring but I find interesting.

I think I was actually doing the same thing by suggesting it was neutral because computer programming is not a "bad boy" trait anymore than being a Biker is, although the latter is usually stereotyped as "bad boys". I think the heart of what I'm saying is interest in a certain clique doesn't mean that they guy they are interested is a "bad guy" or "dangerous" even if he is preceived as such.

As I think about it I know one "bad boy". I can't think of a better way to classify him, he makes all the wrong decisions. Our mutual friend is a Christian who just is the nicest guy you'll ever meet, and I think he's had to set up every date this "bad boy" has ever had.

 

[Watson]

A lot of people in this thread are confusing "jerk" with "confidence". You can be the nicest guy in the world, but if you're in the corner not talking to anyone then it isn't really worth a damn.

The other variable that everyone seems to forget is there is no such thing as "women" general. There are horrible, b**chy women just the same as there are really nice women who might be shy or lack confidence. I've had guy friends date some of the horrible ones and drive us crazy with it. And women wonder the same thing; how come he chose her over me? You just have to get over it and understand that there will be people you mesh with and people you don't.

 

[RockSP]

Of course you can be a nice guy without being a pushover, it's called being a normal person.

Acting like a badass just to try to impress everyone isn't being a "real man", it's being immature and demonstrating that you're too insecure not to put on a macho act.

 

[JAK®]

The other variable that everyone seems to forget is there is no such thing as "women" general. There are horrible, b**chy women just the same as there are really nice women who might be shy or lack confidence.

That's crazy talk.

 

[Anita18]

The other variable that everyone seems to forget is there is no such thing as "women" general. There are horrible, b**chy women just the same as there are really nice women who might be shy or lack confidence. I've had guy friends date some of the horrible ones and drive us crazy with it. And woman wonder the same thing; how come he choose her over me? You just have to get over it and understand that there will be people you mesh with and people you don't.

To be fair, the shy nice people usually manage to find each other without much fuss. As it always has been, it's the few noisy ones that get all the attention.

That's crazy talk.

You're crazy.

Spoiler

 

[Watson]

That's crazy talk.

I know. Just lies spread by the female New World Order.


Whoops. I've said too much

 

[SpideyVille]

There are horrible, b**chy women just the same as there are really nice women who might be shy or lack confidence.

I used to make the same mistake in that I would think that all the "hot" girls would be a "witch" on the inside, and that the quieter girls who don't splash themselves with make-up and tight clothes would be the nicer ones, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I've seen shy, quiet girls open up around their close friends, and they'd turn into a completely different person and say things that you wouldn't think they would, while other girls would be nicer than expected once I got to know them. I think that's the problem today, that most people judge based on their past experiences and stereotypes.

 

[Spider-Fan]

A lot of people in this thread are confusing "jerk" with "confidence". You can be the nicest guy in the world, but if you're in the corner not talking to anyone then it isn't really worth a damn.

The other variable that everyone seems to forget is there is no such thing as "women" general. There are horrible, b**chy women just the same as there are really nice women who might be shy or lack confidence. I've had guy friends date some of the horrible ones and drive us crazy with it. And women wonder the same thing; how come he chose her over me? You just have to get over it and understand that there will be people you mesh with and people you don't.

Moral of the story, we all have bad taste

 

[Anita18]

I used to make the same mistake in that I would think that all the "hot" girls would be a "witch" on the inside, and that the quieter girls who don't splash themselves with make-up and tight clothes would be the nicer ones, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I've seen shy, quiet girls open up around their close friends, and they'd turn into a completely different person and say things that you wouldn't think they would, while other girls would be nicer than expected once I got to know them. I think that's the problem today, that most people judge based on their past experiences and stereotypes.

People are always when the first 4-letter word flies out of my mouth. I apparently don't look like someone who cusses.

 

[terry78]

While your instincts may say go for the nerdy girl in order to avoid any "*****iness", sometimes they can end up like Daria and be just as snobby as the "hot chicks." So it's always a crapshoot. That's life.

 

[Watson]

While your instincts may say go for the nerdy girl in order to avoid any "*****iness", sometimes they can end up like Daria and be just as snobby as the "hot chicks." So it's always a crapshoot. That's life.

Exactly

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I never really understood what "nice guys" meant by "bad boys" (I think I've used the term in the past). I don't see a lot of girls hanging with "bad" boys. There doesn't seem to be a large contingent of girls chasing after serial killers, or rapists. In fact I'd gather that's why Jon Lajoie line of products don't sell very well...

I do see women putting up with guys who don't always tolerate their bullsh** (and vice versa). It's fairly normal to have disagreements or to complain about your significant other's less than desireable personality traits.

For example a "nice guy" may label some boyfriend a "jerk" because he goes and hangs out with his friends [sometimes] instead of spending all his time with the girl, but that's not really "bad" behavior. Parents and friends don't magically disappear from your life when a girl arrives, so it shouldn't strike anyone as odd that guys and girls will have occasions where they spend time with those people (and not together). Anyone can warp most normal behavior into something jerk-ish depending on how they wish to preceive the person. I think a lot of "women like jerks" is just a matter of projection. The "nice guy" projects all their negative traits onto whatever he preceives as his competition.

 

[E-Man]

Let me ask you this then, would the phrase "Good guys finish last" be a more true statement? These days, a person who does the right thing all the time will most often be shunned by those whose 'moral compass'es have a confused magnetic field. Unless they surround themselves by people of similar morals and ethics, they would have to deal with some social rejection.

Example, my co-worker is a really hard worker... strives for success and is genuinely what I would call a 'good guy'. But others see him as a kiss ass because he always has a very cheerful demeanor and that's all they see. They see him being friendly to people in higher positions, but it's hard not to do that when you are the low man on the totem pole (he has only worked here for a few years). From my experience with him, he is the epitome of a hard worker with strong work ethics... but others see him as just a kiss ass who uses his ability to appeal socially as a way to advance his career.

Probably doesn't compare to the pitiful loser example that most people have been using in this thread... but career advancement without peer acceptance is a hard thing to deal with sometimes.

See, i told you all that this thread might not have been about women. Everyone owes me a giant sized bag of cool ranch doritos now.

 

[Spider-Fan]

In my experience, people tend to try and justify their world views and not own up to their faults, so that is how you get the cliche of women wanting "the bad boy" over "the nice guy" when the reality of that is more often than not, the nice guy who loses to the bad boy lost because he was too passive or made no move/hid his intentions behind some cryptic veil. Usually if you can't find anyone that wants you, it is something you're doing wrong. Not everyone else. Isolated rejection might be the fault of who you hit on, but it is probably yours when it becomes a trend.

Everyone has a type, and you will be someone's type. There is someone for everyone. But, nothing gets handed to you if you don't try. That is the only sure fire way to fail, and I think too often, the nice guy is the guy who falls into this group of people who give up or just let the more confident guy step in the spotlight.