Apocalypse Nightcrawler in the Apocalypse Movie

[GuestStar2004]

I dont buy that. He basically adopted it the X-men, he's not gonna abandon them just to rush to um raise a kid thats in his 20's?

It's not so much what the character would do its whether there would be time to explore xavier and his long lost son and his involvement with Teaching the x-men, how do you balance out the reason to have the x-men involved and their own development when xavier is wrapped up in his own problem that doesn't involve them

 

[SuperT]

I honestly didn't like that "memory erase" thing from FC. I like the movie overall, but that was a mistake on the writer's part, and it didn't even make sense.

Why didn't it make sense? Even though Moira was trustworthy (from our point of view) there's no saying the CIA couldn't ever break her down, follow or track her to get to Xavier.

He erased her memory in order to protect the X-Men, his school. etc. I thought it made perfect sense.

 

[ciscostudent561]

^ unless, as i've speculated, the reason why moira comes to him and reveals the details of kevin (proteus) is because it plays into the story that pertains to apocalypse.

Meaning, apocalypse has taken kevin and has turned him into a monster, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Now they can combine both things, charles and moira having a kid and the apocalypse. It gives charles further reason to fight and makes him more emotionally invested (and the audience).

There is a lot that they can do with this story, and most importantly, it wouldn't be charles having to "abandon them (the x-men) just to rush to um raise a kid thats in his 20's"! But instead, use the team that he has formed and trained to fight against the biggest threat to mankind and hopefully save his son in the process!

yeah!!!

 

[Super Jim]

Why didn't it make sense? Even though Moira was trustworthy (from our point of view) there's no saying the CIA couldn't ever break her down, follow or track her to get to Xavier.

He erased her memory in order to protect the X-Men, his school. etc. I thought it made perfect sense.

Because what Xavier should have/would have done is walk into the CIA facility and wipe the minds of all of those stuffed shirts of anything to do with the X-Men so that there would never have been a need to mind-wipe Moira because they never would have questioned her about it because they wouldn't have remembered it.

That's what someone with telepathic powers would really do.

And if there is information within the files already then he would be able to find that out and control whomever he needed to in order to have that information removed from the system so there would be no trace.

And further, if anyone ever came looking for them he would be able to use his powers and force them to do whatever he wanted, including forgetting all about them, unless, of course, they had some special helmet that only Magneto has.

 

[GuestStar2004]

There is only so much time you can spend with charles and his long lost son, magneto and his kids, mystique and Nightcrawler and the x-men doing their thing, infact which one of Them could be taken out of th story and not be effected by this theme?

it would probably be better to show charles being more like a father to the x-men rather then throw the newly recruited x-men in a story where charles finds out he has a son

Not that I think the parents theme will be a big one since the mystique and nightcrawer stuff Could end up limited more on her conscience then them hanging out as mother and son

 

[Super Jim]

^ but they all could have "real purposes"!

1. Quicksilver being Magneto's son would serve the purpose of giving a reason why he would join Erik. If they started with Quicksilver as either part of Charles' team (which makes some sense as Check would try to recruit known mutants) or with someone like Raven, it would give Quicksilver a reason to leave that team and go with Erik. Not much more is needed than that. And let's be honest here, people loved Quicksilver in DoFP so you know he's going to be in the movie.

2. Raven needs to have resolution with Erik. I mean, she left Charles to go with Erik and we know there were feelings there. Those feelings likely developed into something more. Makes a lot of sense that after the events of First Class that Raven and Erik were intimate. (side note - I'm just hoping they don't make Kurt Erik's or Hank's kid!!!!!). Then Erik goes and leaves Raven and ends up being imprisoned. Imagine how hurt she would have been and how abandoned she would have felt. Then, imagine that she either turned to another (Azazel) or he either forced himself or tricked her with the end result being Kurt. Now Raven would have been abandoned and blaming Erik for what happened with Azazel and her now being pregnant. Ultimately, once the baby was born (and she would have been living as the wife of some important dude named Wagner during that time), she would have been forced to leave and would have abandoned her baby with Margali. She then would have likely gone searching for Erik and stuff.

The point is that they wouldn't necessarily need to get into the whole Raven talking this out with Kurt stuff, but resolving things with Erik, and all of this coming out (with some scenes being flashbacks during Xavier's visit to the circus and his talk with Margali) makes a lot of sense and fits the story, as far as the (at least on from the perception of the writer/producers/director) need for resolution between Erik and Raven.

3. They wouldn't end up spening a lot of time with Charles and his son. It's not going to be Charles going and meeting him and all of the angst that comes with that. Instead it will likely be as I explained above, that Charle's son, that he didn't know about, has been taken by Apocalypse and turned into this monster. Yes, we'd get some resolution between Moira and Charles and find out about this (even if it was just one night back in 1962) relationship they had, and the resultant of that, but most of this stryline will be focused on Apocalypse and stopping him, meaning that it would serve the story.

In fact all three of these ideas would serve the story, if they do it the right way, meaning the time devoted serves both the emotional storylines, and the villain storyline.

Now just imagine if Proteus ends up dying during the battle with the X-Men at the end. Let's make it worse... Imagine if it is Xavier that causes the death of his son...

Ok, I went too far, but I think you can see how they can make all three of these parental plots serve the main storyline!

 

[GuestStar2004]

2. Raven needs to have resolution with Erik. I mean, she left Charles to go with Erik and we know there were feelings there. Those feelings likely developed into something more. Makes a lot of sense that after the events of First Class that Raven and Erik were intimate. (side note - I'm just hoping they don't make Kurt Erik's or Hank's kid!!!!!). Then Erik goes and leaves Raven and ends up being imprisoned. Imagine how hurt she would have been and how abandoned she would have felt. Then, imagine that she either turned to another (Azazel) or he either forced himself or tricked her with the end result being Kurt. Now Raven would have been abandoned and blaming Erik for what happened with Azazel and her now being pregnant. Ultimately, once the baby was born (and she would have been living as the wife of some important dude named Wagner during that time), she would have been forced to leave and would have abandoned her baby with Margali. She then would have likely gone searching for Erik and stuff.

you often speculate that she would be upset about eric and azazel was a rebound but not only has it never been said he left her but we kinda know where he went, he tried to save JFK and somehow got captured and put in prison, so either way she likely knew where he was and why he was there but didn't break him out, instead she went out to stop trask and get revenge for what he did to presumably angel,azazel and the other mutants

she also kicked erics ass so she could get a chance to kill stryker and handed eric over to charles i don't think there was any strong ex gf type feelings there

3. They wouldn't end up spening a lot of time with Charles and his son. It's not going to be Charles going and meeting him and all of the angst that comes with that. Instead it will likely be as I explained above, that Charle's son, that he didn't know about, has been taken by Apocalypse and turned into this monster. Yes, we'd get some resolution between Moira and Charles and find out about this (even if it was just one night back in 1962) relationship they had, and the resultant of that, but most of this stryline will be focused on Apocalypse and stopping him, meaning that it would serve the story.

there is alot of emotional implications with charles finding out he has a son that can't just be pushed to the side after, but as i said before he doesn't have to be proteus father in order for him to care about moira and want to help her, infact that type of thing has been done in movies several times in the past

 

[Super Jim]

^ Yes, we (the audience) knows where Erik went, but Raven doesn't. I don't believe that was known to the general public.

The point is that from Raven POV Erik, the man she loved (assumed) left her and never came back. This is what would lead to whatever happened (assumed) with Azazel and the birth of Kurt.

Yes, she (10 years later) got revenge (or at least tried to) for Azazel and Tempest and others, but that doesn't pertain directly to this discussion. The only thing I will give is that she did seem to be truly upset when she saw the pictures of Azazel, meaning possibly she had real feelings for him, but that can be changed, ret-con'd, or altered however they need to to fit the story.

Again, her actions in 1973 were 9-10 years after Erik "left her". Again, from her POV, her abandoned her, so sure, she would have "kicked erics ass" and "handed eric over to charles". I believe most would agree that based on the events of First Class Raven and Erik likely developed into something that would need to be resolved in this movie...

As far as the "emotional implications with charles finding out he has a son that can't be pushed aside after", all of that would be at the end of the movie. Once Moira comes to him and drops the bomb he'll need to focus on stopping Apocalypse and hopefully saving his son (that he didn't know about) in the process. As far as these emothional implications, it would be after the fact, which means after the credits role...

Yes, you are right, Proteus could still be Moira's kid and not be Charles', but why wouldn't you include that in this story? If you're bringing Moira to Charles for help then just go the extra step and drop the bomb that he is Charles' kid.

 

[pavlov]

With Quicksilver and Nightcrawler being the respective lost children of Magneto and Mystique, shoehorning Xavier's lost son would make it convoluted and contrived. It's been said that XMA would deal with legacy. I thing Chuck should concentrate on his X-men - his surrogate children and true legacy.

 

[Super Jim]

^ As I've already explained, his focus would continue to be on his team, but by making it where Moira has to come to Charles for help because Apocalypse has taken her son and transformed him into some monster, it pertains to the story, deal with legacy for Charles, and keeps the focus on the X-Men fighting against the forces of Apocalypse (which would lead to Charles saving his kid).

See, if you're going to do the whole "lost children of Magneto and Mystique" thing, then why wouldn't you include Moira and Chalres' kid as well. Just fits the legacy theme, IMO!

 

[pavlov]

The problem is that this isn't a mini-series. You don't have the luxury of time to tell a compelling, well-rounded story if you shoehorn everyone in the 120-minute time frame.
We already have the following to develop in the limited screen time:

1) Chuck and his role as a patriarch to his students
2) the relationships among the students
3) magneto, his brotherhood, and his relationship with his child(ren)
4) mystique and whatever she's up to + her relationship with Kurt
5) Apocalypse's origin, his rise and motivation
6) the transformation of the new horsemen

If you add Proteus, it takes away the emphasis on Xavier's fatherly role to the X-men. You would have to establish a backstory for their relationship to make the aduction, transformation and eventual rescue of his son compelling. Focus is important, otherwise, the X-Men would end up as just glorified cameos.

 

[EnDz0n3]

It's not the fact that he erased her memory or that she kept it from him it's more the case of when was the conception? Or will the producers just say well stuff happened at the mansion that you really didn't get any small hint about in 1963 but it's not till now we wish we had shown something because all we have now is one characters word to say yeah something secretly did happen off screen didn't you know?

In the end even if you wanted to say Moira had proteus it wouldn't have to be charles kid in order for it to be revelant, she may go to charles for help and charles may care enough to wanna help Moira anyway

To reveal charles has a son it makes the x-men's involvement pointless really since charles will be busy worrying about his own kid he just found out exists to take time to teach or worry about them

But aren't you one of the posters on here who's advocating for them to reveal that something happened between Mystique and Azazel offscreen, between FC and DOFP. How is it different in this instance?

 

[psylockolussus]

Agreed!

 

[GuestStar2004]

But aren't you one of the posters on here who's advocating for them to reveal that something happened between Mystique and Azazel offscreen, between FC and DOFP. How is it different in this instance?

Mystique left with magneto, azazel and co at the end of FC, then we don't know what happened for 10 years

with charles and Moira he erased her memory at the end of FC so unless they say he continued to see her after FC then something must have happened during the events of FC for it to work and we didn't really see anything to suggest they got that close

 

[Super Jim]

^ I'm not sure I would agree with that. Yes, for this concept to work it would mean that Moira and Charles were intimate during the events of First Class, prior to Cuba.

That is definitely in the realm of possible.

But when you say that "we didn't really see anything to suggest they got that close" I'm not so sure I agree. I don't think anyone would argue that there was a mutual attraction there and that both of them definitely (especially on the beach) showed that they had feelings for each other.

So just because they didn't show Charles walking over to Moira before they got on the jet and say "you were amazing last night" doesn't mean something couldn't have happened.

It would be very simple for them to exposition this during Apocalypse. Moira seeks out Charles and data dumps about how this evil dude that calls himself the Apocalypse has taken her son Kevin. Charles then says something intuitive like, "Moira, why didn't you tell me?". That leads to the whole exposition of 'It was just that one night', 'Everything changed after Cuba', 'You weren't in a place to be a father', and 'I felt so guilty for what I did to you'. That leads to the whole 'It wasn't your fault', 'I'm sorry that I wasn't there for you' and so on.

Now you've got a reason to have Moira in the movie, Proteus doesn't take away a lot of screen time since he is part of Apocalypse's forces, once Apocalypse is defeated and Kevin is saved (unless he ends up dying) all of the resolution happens offscreen after the credits roll. Effectively this becomes part of the Apocalypse battle so it enables the whole "legacy" theme for Charles and doesn't take away from his role as Patriarch of these new, young X-Men!

Again, this is all speculation on my part, but for those who are adamantly against this as a possibility I have to ask you, what other reason would they have for forcing Moira into this story???????????????????????????????

 

[GuestStar2004]

In the realm of film making story telling it's not a great thing to have to explain a missing story element from a first film in a 3rd sequel in the need to explain something they didn't even hint too, it's sounds like a desperate move to explain something they didn't plan out ahead of time, it would be seen as contrived

Infact yes contrived is the only word needed for how it would be seen

 

[GuestStar2004]

Again, this is all speculation on my part, but for those who are adamantly against this as a possibility I have to ask you, what other reason would they have for forcing Moira into this story???????????????????????????????

well no one says they are forcing her into the story

and as i said even if she does have a son it wouldn't have to be charles kid for her to go to him for help about her mutant child

Remembering of course they they could either go closer to the comics or keep to her CIA roots or completely change that all together

 

[SuperT]

Again, this is all speculation on my part, but for those who are adamantly against this as a possibility I have to ask you, what other reason would they have for forcing Moira into this story???????????????????????????????

And you know her character is being forced in how? I don't know, maybe she's in this movie because she's a pretty significant character to the creation of the X-Men and they've come up with a story that makes sense for her inclusion.

Moira being present doesn't mean they have to go with the Proteus storyline at all.

 

[Super Jim]

Is that why they included her in DoFP?

She's "a pretty significant character to the creation of the X-Men" so she should have been in DoFP, right?

Look, we already have so much in this movie. Resolution of Charles, Erik and Raven's triad of relationships, the formation of the new, young X-Men, what's going on with Wolverine, Magneto's plans, mansions/Danger Room/other Beast invention stuff, Apocalypse's rise, the Horsemen stuff, a few battles including one major climax, Quicksilver, Gambit, and so much more.

So again, including Moira, a character that was not important enough to be included in DoFP means that there is a specific purpose. Obviously when I asked "what other reason would they have for forcing Moira into this story" I was asking for specific ideas, not some response as vague as "a story that makes sense for her inclusion".

Simply put, give me a "story that makes sense for her inclusion" that doesn't include Proteus, based on everything we know?????????????????????????

 

[SuperT]

Is that why they included her in DoFP?

She's "a pretty significant character to the creation of the X-Men" so she should have been in DoFP, right?

Look, we already have so much in this movie. Resolution of Charles, Erik and Raven's triad of relationships, the formation of the new, young X-Men, what's going on with Wolverine, Magneto's plans, mansions/Danger Room/other Beast invention stuff, Apocalypse's rise, the Horsemen stuff, a few battles including one major climax, Quicksilver, Gambit, and so much more.

So again, including Moira, a character that was not important enough to be included in DoFP means that there is a specific purpose. Obviously when I asked "what other reason would they have for forcing Moira into this story" I was asking for specific ideas, not some response as vague as "a story that makes sense for her inclusion".

Simply put, give me a "story that makes sense for her inclusion" that doesn't include Proteus, based on everything we know?????????????????????????

Once again, you're making assumptions based on nothing. Moira not being in DOFP has no bearing or indication on what her role in Apocalypse other than the fact that they found a need or place for her in it. It doesn't imply that her role is going to be some earth-shattering story arc for the entire franchise.

For all we know, she could simply have her facility on Muir Island by now and just work with the team to take down Apocalypse. You're reading way too much into things that aren't even there or have even been hinted at.

 

[Super Jim]

So I ask you to give us a "story that makes sense for her inclusion" and again you come back with a vague answer, though this time you added "she could simply have her facility on Muir Island by now and just work with the team to take down Apocalypse"?

Really, that's your answer?

You're telling me it's so important to add Moira into this story, with everything else that will be going on, taking away screen time from Apocalypse, the new X-kids, the battles, and so forth, just to have Moira "work with the team to take down Apocalypse"? That it?

Sorry, but I'm looking for a specific story that makes sense for including Moira with all of this other stuff going on. Give me something?

 

[marvelrobbins]

Xavier could summon her to come to mansion.She has often worked with him at mansion
In comics.Her being in film doesn't mean you have to have Muir island.

 

[x-er]

She's CIA so I'm picturing her investigating Apocalypse's origins and somehow teaming up with Charles. It also doesn't matter how she's being pulled back in since Rose Byrne rocks, so...


My question here is why Nightcrawler is not with the X-Men in 2023.

 

[Duran Man]

He was at church.

 

[psylockolussus]

I dont know about that maybe Logan just didnt see him after he woke up.