The Dark Knight Rises Nolan...add Robin!!!!!!

[Mr. Earle]

You dont like Robin? Well, let me post Nighwing #153. Its the last Nighwing issue since after that Dick becomes Batman (Bruce is dead). Its technically a NW issue but it also shows features Tim and shows Dick's origin in a very dramatic way. But before i post it, let me explain the origin of the candle you'll see with this page from Nighwing #152:

And now, here is Nighwing #153 in links because all these images would be impossible to post here. Give it a read, its worth it!

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1224/nightwing153005.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5435/nightwing153006.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6042/nightwing153007.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/8320/nightwing153008.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8918/nightwing153009.jpg
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7457/nightwing153010.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4620/nightwing153011.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5477/nightwing153012.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9360/nightwing153013.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9288/nightwing153014.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6818/nightwing153015.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1755/nightwing153016.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6536/nightwing153017.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5691/nightwing153018.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2053/nightwing153019.jpg

 

[El Payaso]

"Why do we fall" is a bit cheesy for Bruce to say, but hell, i'd like to see him say his father's quote.

We're merely discussing possibilities on how to portray the Bruce-Dick relationship and the cheese is all over the place.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I don't think it's cheesy. It all depends on the context and how it is delivered. It wasn't cheesy in Begins for instance.

 

[El Payaso]

It was the king of cheese in Begins.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Listen pal, I'm the King of cheese! It wasn't cheesy I don't think.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I don't think it's cheesy. It all depends on the context and how it is delivered. It wasn't cheesy in Begins for instance.

It was a bit cheesy, but i can excuse it. Its a pretty nice quote to say to your kid often and teach him to never to give up. Batman is renowned for his perseverance so it was fitting.

 

[El Payaso]

It was perfect for a superhero movie, it sounded Biblic and it meant little.

Actually what irked me was that it sounded too much like a "with great power..." imitation. Spiderman had one so Goyer felt like Batman needed one too. But no.

 

[The Joker]

It was the king of cheese in Begins.

It was cheesey, but not the king of cheese in Begins. Not with lines like "Nice coat" around

 

[batpawn]

It was cheesey, but not the king of cheese in Begins. Not with lines like "Nice coat" around

don't forget 'It doesn't matter who we are underneath...'. ugh...

 

[Mr. Earle]

It was perfect for a superhero movie, it sounded Biblic and it meant little.

Actually what irked me was that it sounded too much like a "with great power..." imitation. Spiderman had one so Goyer felt like Batman needed one too. But no.

Everything good = Nolan
Everything bad = Goyer

Excuse me if i dont buy it. In the end, Chris Nolan was the director, the final say was his.

don't forget 'It doesn't matter who we are underneath...'. ugh...

I liked that one a lot!


So anyway, did anyone read the comic book i posted above? Jesus people!

 

[El Payaso]

It was cheesey, but not the king of cheese in Begins. Not with lines like "Nice coat" around

Oh yes. SOmehow my brain blocked that.

But even when that was the king, 'why do we fall' was the major of Cheeseville.

don't forget 'It doesn't matter who we are underneath...'. ugh...

Right again.

You see, those lines truly destroyed the movie for me, amongst some other details.

And I feel Robin would be a long cheesey line. Epic-sounding but eye rolling-worthy in the end.

Everything good = Nolan
Everything bad = Goyer

Excuse me if i dont buy it. In the end, Chris Nolan was the director, the final say was his.

Not only you're excused but I do agree with you. I actually blame Nolan as much as Goyer. But I believe that it was Goyer who wrote that line. And after watching TDK I think Nolan was seriously told to include the average superhero movie stuff like that: love interest, bad one-liners, etc.

But yes, Nolan is responsible.

I liked that one a lot!

As the 'why do we fall' one, very superhero-movie-like.

So anyway, did anyone read the comic book i posted above? Jesus people!

I did.

I have always said two things: in comic books, Robin, Batgirl or even Bat-Mite might work. And the less Robin Robin is in a movie, the better.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

So um, what is actually wrong with "very super hero movie like" lines in a, wait for it, super hero movie?

 

[Mr. Earle]

I did.

I have always said two things: in comic books, Robin, Batgirl or even Bat-Mite might work. And the less Robin Robin is in a movie, the better.

Thanks.

So um, what is actually wrong with "very super hero movie like" lines in a, wait for it, super hero movie?

I have no problem with them, as long as they are good. I mean, Nolan wanted Bruce to unmask to Rachel and imho that was a nice way. I prefer it to him taking off his cowl to say "hey Rachel, its me!"

 

[El Payaso]

So um, what is actually wrong with "very super hero movie like" lines in a, wait for it, super hero movie?

They... uhm... ooh... errr... suck.

They rapidly became cliché, predictable and more and more hollow. It's like the love interest and so many time they look and feel forced.

 

[Sub-Zero]

no to robin, but dick grayson may work. remember the animated series episode "robin's reckoning" showed dick's origin perfectly, and that show never had him as robin until he was in college.

 

[Eddie Nashton]

here is a pic I messed around with. ^ hey Sub-Zero, are you on the DP board? I ask because of the "Not Penny's Motorboat thing above your avatar.

 

[Mr. Earle]

^ Wow, nice!!! I like it a lot!
You know, Robin wouldnt feel so cheesy if Batman had his comics suit (grey with underpants), Gotham was filled with people who have plant or clay powers, and finally if Gotham was part of a bigger universe filled with heroes in flashy suits.

But in a crime drama, a Heat 2 with batman of sorts, then sometimes even Batman himself felt cheesy.

 

[El Payaso]

^ Wow, nice!!! I like it a lot!
You know, Robin wouldnt feel so cheesy if Batman had his comics suit (grey with underpants), Gotham was filled with people who have plant or clay powers, and finally if Gotham was part of a bigger universe filled with heroes in flashy suits.

But in a crime drama, a Heat 2 with batman of sorts, then sometimes even Batman himself felt cheesy.

Yeah, well, if you cheese up everything then Robin won't be felt as cheesey. But if you gotta cheese up everything because of him it is much more recommendable to leave him out.

Thankfully Batman himself hasn't been cheesey at all in the Noilan movies so far.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yeah, well, if you cheese up everything then Robin won't be felt as cheesey. But if you gotta cheese up everything because of him it is much more recommendable to leave him out.

You re not cheesing up Batman if you present him the way he is supposed to be in the comics.

Thankfully Batman himself hasn't been cheesey at all in the Noilan movies so far.

Actually he felt out of place and cheesy in many cases during TDK, the way he would feel out of place in Heat, standing next to DeNiro's and Pacino's characters.

 

[El Payaso]

You re not cheesing up Batman if you present him the way he is supposed to be in the comics.

You're precisely cheesing him up if you pretend a realistic tone while having the ultimate crime fighter in tights with blue trunks over spandex.

Comics and movies, apples and cheese.

Actually he felt out of place and cheesy in many cases during TDK, the way he would feel out of place in Heat, standing next to DeNiro's and Pacino's characters.

...


and the examples?

 

[Mr. Earle]

You're precisely cheesing him up if you pretend a realistic tone while having the ultimate crime fighter in tights with blue trunks over spandex.

and the examples?

Besides Batman, Harvey's half face and the Joker, the movie could easily have been a Chicago crime drama, so yeah, they all felt out of place since the rest 95% of the movie elements didnt look anything like a comic book movie.

 

[El Payaso]

I guess you're not getting that "tone" doesn't mean that the movie was 100% realistic. It means that it was meant to be more believable/less fantasy-emphasized than the average superhero movie. And it was.

Besides Batman, Harvey's half face and the Joker, the movie could easily have been a Chicago crime drama, so yeah, they all felt out of place since the rest 95% of the movie elements didnt look anything like a comic book movie.

They felt out of place because you can compare many elements to some other movie and some others you can not (therefore labelling them as 'out of place')???

If Joker's white face, smile and green hair was magically explained with some unknown/unnamed chemical waste, then I'd have to admit some fantastic elements and tone going on (fantastic tone as in 'it might happen but we're not interested in fully explaining it'). But Glasgow smile and make up is easily believable, a realistic-toned Joker as the rest of the movie was.

And Batman's suit was ugly enough to be bought as a functional crime fighting suit (as some Swat suits are). The mask and the cape were also fully explained before. And that's why they're not 'out of place' elements. They're much more believable elements in these movies than 'comic book' elements. In fact they're still considered 'comic book' elements in Nolan movies only because we know that they were in a comic book before, not because they're 'out of place'.

In movies like Cape Fear DeNiro's face was burnt, so why not Harvey Dent's.

I'm sorry but your argument for 'out of place' is finding some random referent and then comparing Nolan bat-movies to that. It's only a matter of finding the "right" referent so we can make our 'out of place elements' list. Yeah, out of place... according to a whimsical comparison to this or that movie.

 

[GaiusBaltar]

You know, I gotta side with El Payaso on this one. I didn't feel Batman being out of place because the first movie spent so much time trying to properly introduce him that once we were back in Gotham, all that work was done. In fact, for the people that hadn't watched Begins, TDK was kinda comic-booky and not that serious from take one. Bat-logo, guys in clown masks killing one after the other, school bus arriving right on time, fake grenade, bat-signal lighting up, dealers and junkies scared of Batman, the Scarecrow, the Tumbler on remote.... and not just the beginning... fast-forward and you will get a whole new level of an almost impossible Joker plan coming to fruition like dominoes tumbling each other.
And, to be fair Mr. Earle, I think you're cherrypicking. In "Heat" I didn't see guys gliding in Hong Kong, helicopters crashing down in the middle of the street, 18-wheelers doing somersaults, bad guys posing as a nurse, out-of-this-world sonar devices, etc., etc. Batman, Two-Face and the Joker did not really feel out of place there. They weren't regular comic-book material, but they didn't belong in Heat either.

 

[The Joker]

You know, I gotta side with El Payaso on this one. I didn't feel Batman being out of place because the first movie spent so much time trying to properly introduce him that once we were back in Gotham, all that work was done. In fact, for the people that hadn't watched Begins, TDK was kinda comic-booky and not that serious from take one. Bat-logo, guys in clown masks killing one after the other, school bus arriving right on time, fake grenade, bat-signal lighting up, dealers and junkies scared of Batman, the Scarecrow, the Tumbler on remote.... and not just the beginning... fast-forward and you will get a whole new level of an almost impossible Joker plan coming to fruition like dominoes tumbling each other.
And, to be fair Mr. Earle, I think you're cherrypicking. In "Heat" I didn't see guys gliding in Hong Kong, helicopters crashing down in the middle of the street, 18-wheelers doing somersaults, bad guys posing as a nurse, out-of-this-world sonar devices, etc., etc. Batman, Two-Face and the Joker did not really feel out of place there. They weren't regular comic-book material, but they didn't belong in Heat either.

Well said

 

[Crook]

Since you've noted that you've said your last word on Rachel, I'll refrain from responding to that subject to drive this topic back on track. But if you do wish to see my response to it, I'll type it up for ya if I have the time, in a pm or something. Anyway:

I believe Robin's "fitness" in this story universe is a million times more debatable than the Joker's. Some opposers and supporters have good rationale, many other have none, but this thread is not 111 pages long for nothing.

Half the threads are so long because there are simply too many people that come and go over the years to continue the debate. I myself have taken a break from threads such as these, but it never fails to consistently bring up the same 3 or 4 discussions, just reworded and with different posters.

There is a point in that Robin is more difficult to handle compared to Joker, but they tackle the creative realm from opposite ends. Joker can be introduced almost at any point in Batman's life, as time plays little issue on their relationship. Functioning as the main villain, he also works because an entire story can be crafted around him as the antagonist.

Dick is a supporting character so it's trickier to gauge when and where he should come in. Especially on film. Not only do you have to introduce him, but you have to develop his weighty backstory, AND you'd have to juggle the main plot of the film. So I definitely understand the resistance towards that type of pressure. But hey, I'm not a writer so I couldn't care less how difficult it is. It's up to them to make sure a quality product is put out. I just want it to work.

I see myself more inclined to accept the one in bold, the latter, but that means Robin's "fleshing out" would probably be helmed by another director. In that case, Nolan would be setting the grounds for a character someone else is going to develope, yet these initial steps may turn into a creative straight-jacket for the latter. Nolan has admitted he doesn't like making things that depend on a subsequent film for full appreciation... he doesn't like working with sequels in minds. I don't see him taking decisions that would affect other people's work.

There's also the fact that the series doesn't need to particularly have an endpoint based on a number. Hollywood is obsessed with trilogies for some reason, even though there is absolutely no basis to that numerical value from a storytelling perspective. If Nolan decides to solely focus on Dick, I would suspect he isn't intent on leaving the franchise with 3. This isn't exclusive to Dick of course, it could apply to the likes of Selina and (previously thought) Harvey.

Which is exactly my main problem. I'd be even more worried if the Robin storyline is completely fleshed out and his character perfectly established, but consuming too much of the rest of the movie, especially with Batman's story being in such a delicate place right now that (IMO) could be better explored in different avenues.

Yeah, it's a catch-22 almost, but you gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.

I wasn't "pleased" with Batman becoming more of a supporting character in TDK, or Two-Face being a glorified cameo, but on the other hand I got a whole lot of Joker and fully fleshed roles from Harvey and Gordon, which I did not expect so soon. It's a balancing act, no doubt. It's not gonna be perfect, but I've grown to accept flaws as long as it's heavily outweighed by the positive aspects.

With Robin, I know Batman's lonely solo act will be sacrificed, and screentime is gonna have to be divided more. It's not something I'm happy to lose, but given the writer is equipped to not make me miss it as I'm in that story...they've succeeded.