Of Spiders and Men

[The Kid]

Hi

I think Spider-man 3 will definitely be an entertaining spectacle, worth all the money we'll pay to see Venom and Sandman brought to life on screen, and hopefully done proper justice though raimi's proven he can handle villains pretty well, so I'm not worried.

Where I'm unfortunately a bit apprehensive is in how my favorite comic character, Peter Parker/Spider-man, will be treated. So far I think he's been portrayed similar to the Lennie charcter in Of Mice and Men, with little of his scientific genius and patented wit found in the comic books. He sort of fumbles through his fights with little to no use of his high intellect to out-wit his opponents like Batman does in Begins when he out-wits Ra's in the end, good flick.

Goblin of course impales himself in the comic so I'm fine with that in spidey 1. But spidey 2 seemingly required no smarts on spidey's behalf when he went against his foes. What's going on, raimi? Don't get me wrong though, I loved the action as much as any spidey fan.

I would love even more though to see spidey be smart-spidey more than Ahnuld-spidey, last action spider. I always thought one of spidey's greatest strengths besides his spider powers was of course mind.

your thoughts?

 

[GoldGoblin]

I think we will see more of Peter's brain when he is hanging out with Dr.Connors in SM4.

 

[batman11]

Hi

I think Spider-man 3 will definitely be an entertaining spectacle, worth all the money we'll pay to see Venom and Sandman brought to life on screen, and hopefully done proper justice although raimi's proven he can handle villains pretty well so I'm not worried.

Where I'm unfortunately a bit apprehensive is in how my favorite comic character, Peter Parker/Spider-man, will be treated. So far I think he's been portrayed similar to the Lennie charcter in Of Mice and Men, with little of his scientific genius and patented wit found in the comic books. He sort of fumbles through his fights with little use of his high intellect to out-wit his opponents like Batman does in Begins when he out-wits Ra's in the end, good flick.

Goblin of course impales himself in the comic so I'm fine with that in spidey 1. But spidey 2 seemingly required no smarts on spidey's behalf. What's going on, raimi? Don't get me wrong though, I loved the action as much as any spidey fan.

I would love even more though to see spidey be smart-spidey more than Ahnuld-spidey, last action spider. I always thought one of spidey's greatest strengths besides his powers was of course his mind.

your thoughts?

Haha, I think he's a bit smarter than Lennie lol, but I understand you're point, we haven's seen the smart Spider-Man, and we've only tapped the surface of smart Peter (his conversation with Doc Ock in the begginning of Spider-Man 2 about Ock's experiment). Unfortunately, this movie and its setting and plot may not be capable of introducing smart Spidey, however if there is a Spider-Man 4 like Gold Goblin said, Pete would probably use his smarts when being with Connors all the time (if that indeed does happen). On a side note, I like the thread title!

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

well I think in spidey3 peter will trick venom and then bang the girders so that the symbiote comes off. what I also belive is that symbiote spidey will trick sandman and then have the water come pooring onto sandman. now we really didn't see that in spidey2 but trust me I think we will see more of it in spidey3. spidey will show his smartness more than once in spidey3, probably 3 times.

 

[chaseter]

^ I don't think he is going to bang the girders.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^ I don't think he is going to bang the girders.

he might not, he might do what he did in the comics and that is talk to the symbiote and have it flow off brock onto him.

 

[Spider-Girl™]

banging the girders seems like a cheap way out, but if all it does it weaken the symbiote then I am fine by that. I always thought that Peter's smarts (in the movie)lie in self preservation and focused on accomplishing his goal. Quick reflexes may help, but it's no good if you don't know how to use them.

The bicycle seen in '2' really through me off at first. I thought, oh since Peter can't even fix a simple bike then he must be pretty stupid. And then I realised that some "nerdy kids" are better with there brain then they are with there hands. I hope that in '3' that we see more off Peter's smartness.

PS:Sorry I just got home from school and I think I totally contradicted myself in my post.

 

[The Joker]

Where I'm unfortunately a bit apprehensive is in how my favorite comic character, Peter Parker/Spider-man, will be treated. So far I think he's been portrayed similar to the Lennie charcter in Of Mice and Men, with little of his scientific genius and patented wit found in the comic books. He sort of fumbles through his fights with little to no use of his high intellect to out-wit his opponents like Batman does in Begins when he out-wits Ra's in the end, good flick.

Goblin of course impales himself in the comic so I'm fine with that in spidey 1. But spidey 2 seemingly required no smarts on spidey's behalf when he went against his foes. What's going on, raimi? Don't get me wrong though, I loved the action as much as any spidey fan.

I'm a little confuzzled.

You want Spidey to find a smart way to defeat his enemies, rather than use brute force, yes?? You mean like invent something to stop them, or use a situation to his advantage to stop them??

 

[shigsy2003]

I'm a little confuzzled.

You want Spidey to find a smart way to defeat his enemies, rather than use brute force, yes?? You mean like invent something to stop them, or use a situation to his advantage to stop them??

I think he is referring to the fact that so far Spidey has yet to use his brain in order to out think stronger super villians. He is never really put in a position where he has to think of a way to defeat the villians (other than force) as the solution presents itself for him.

In TOS "Doctor Octopus: Armed and Dangerous" episode Spidey went of about a dynamo, magnet and an electro-magnet - realising that, that should magnatise Doc Ock so Spidey can get to Felicia and JJ. Of course this doesn't work out and so he then decides to threaten Doc Ock's work - "your lifes work for my friends". He knows he can't get past him forcefully so he has to think of a solution.

Now Spider-Man 3 should introduce this aspect. Sandman will be impossible to beat or subdue by puer force as he is a natural substance that will require another natural substance to slow him down - science.

Venom should also take some brain power as he is FAR stronger than Spidey...although Harry coming to his rescue will probably cancel out the brain power requirements. although he should still have to think of a way of seperating Eddie from the symbiote.

 

[batman11]

I think he is referring to the fact that so far Spidey has yet to use his brain in order to out think stronger super villians. He is never really put in a position where he has to think of a way to defeat the villians (other than force) as the solution presents itself for him.

In TOS "Doctor Octopus: Armed and Dangerous" episode Spidey went of about a dynamo, magnet and an electro-magnet - realising that, that should magnatise Doc Ock so Spidey can get to Felicia and JJ. Of course this doesn't work out and so he then decides to threaten Doc Ock's work - "your lifes work for my friends". He knows he can't get past him forcefully so he has to think of a solution.

Now Spider-Man 3 should introduce this aspect. Sandman will be impossible to beat or subdue by puer force as he is a natural substance that will require another natural substance to slow him down - science.

Venom should also take some brain power as he is FAR stronger than Spidey...although Harry coming to his rescue will probably cancel out the brain power requirements. although he should still have to think of a way of seperating Eddie from the symbiote.

I agree with both parts. We know something involving water will happen to Sandman, thus incorporating science. With the symbiote and Venom however, as you said, Harry will probably be the one that saves Pete, requiring him to do little to nothing at all that involve brain power. Curse that New Goblin!

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I think he is referring to the fact that so far Spidey has yet to use his brain in order to out think stronger super villians. He is never really put in a position where he has to think of a way to defeat the villians (other than force) as the solution presents itself for him.

In TOS "Doctor Octopus: Armed and Dangerous" episode Spidey went of about a dynamo, magnet and an electro-magnet - realising that, that should magnatise Doc Ock so Spidey can get to Felicia and JJ. Of course this doesn't work out and so he then decides to threaten Doc Ock's work - "your lifes work for my friends". He knows he can't get past him forcefully so he has to think of a solution.

Now Spider-Man 3 should introduce this aspect. Sandman will be impossible to beat or subdue by puer force as he is a natural substance that will require another natural substance to slow him down - science.

Venom should also take some brain power as he is FAR stronger than Spidey...although Harry coming to his rescue will probably cancel out the brain power requirements. although he should still have to think of a way of seperating Eddie from the symbiote.

exactly, which is why I believe sandman and venom will be the first villians to make spidey have to use brain power to defeat them. the reason why in spidey2 Ock got defeated by spidey was because spidey tired Ock with punches and Ock got electracuted which was absoloutley brain power. but if the villians are completley unstoppable then spidey has to think of ideas to either trick or lure the villian into a trap. So I think spidey will tire venom down with punches towards the end of the fight but then try's to get the symbiote off of Brock. now for all we know Harry might stab venom so then that would give a distraction so that peter can find a way to some how defeat venom. now the more knowledgeyou have the more you can use it to your advantage and when it comes to venom, spidey is going to need it.

 

[The Kid]

Haha, I think he's a bit smarter than Lennie lol, but I understand you're point, we haven's seen the smart Spider-Man, and we've only tapped the surface of smart Peter (his conversation with Doc Ock in the begginning of Spider-Man 2 about Ock's experiment). Unfortunately, this movie and its setting and plot may not be capable of introducing smart Spidey, however if there is a Spider-Man 4 like Gold Goblin said, Pete would probably use his smarts when being with Connors all the time (if that indeed does happen). On a side note, I like the thread title!

Thanks, I try to make it interesting.

I think you might be right about this particular story not allowing Spidey to display his smarts very much. I actually thought someone might reply with similar sentiments when I was trying to think of a good thread to start because I don't really expect more than what we've already received and I'm not too sure if spidey will even need to use his mind against the thug sandman, the fool osborn, and the jerk eddie brock. That said, one of my beliefs is that he'll feel more loose and free in the black suit and at least deliver more of his spidey humor during battle. Whether it'll be witty is another matter.

 

[The Joker]

I think he is referring to the fact that so far Spidey has yet to use his brain in order to out think stronger super villians. He is never really put in a position where he has to think of a way to defeat the villians (other than force) as the solution presents itself for him.

In TOS "Doctor Octopus: Armed and Dangerous" episode Spidey went of about a dynamo, magnet and an electro-magnet - realising that, that should magnatise Doc Ock so Spidey can get to Felicia and JJ. Of course this doesn't work out and so he then decides to threaten Doc Ock's work - "your lifes work for my friends". He knows he can't get past him forcefully so he has to think of a solution.

Yes, I thought that's what he meant.

But, Ock and Goblin were emotional villains in the movies, with a connection to Peter. They were men he liked/respected. Their defeat had to be more than being smacked down by Spidey, or subdued by Spidey in some way.

Spidey beat Norman down until he begged him to stop, and then unmasked himself to Peter. Of course, Norman ultimately caused his own demise. Spidey electrocuted Ock which subdued him a bit, and allowed Peter the chance to reason with Ock and make him see the error of his ways.

I don't know, I guess pulling a wall down on Goblin, or electrocuting Ock when he tried to stab Spidey, could be concieved as quick and smart thinking.

Now Spider-Man 3 should introduce this aspect. Sandman will be impossible to beat or subdue by puer force as he is a natural substance that will require another natural substance to slow him down - science.

Yes, well if what we've heard is true, it won't be any science that beats Sandman.

Venom should also take some brain power as he is FAR stronger than Spidey...although Harry coming to his rescue will probably cancel out the brain power requirements. although he should still have to think of a way of seperating Eddie from the symbiote.

With Venom, he's no emotionally powerful villain. He's basically a meat head with a chip on his shoulder. If there's one villain who can be taken for good with simple brute force or whatever, it's Venom.

Peter could use his smarts there to stop him, especially with the intimate knowledge of the symbiote that he'll have.

 

[The Kid]

I think he is referring to the fact that so far Spidey has yet to use his brain in order to out think stronger super villians. He is never really put in a position where he has to think of a way to defeat the villians (other than force) as the solution presents itself for him.

In TOS "Doctor Octopus: Armed and Dangerous" episode Spidey went of about a dynamo, magnet and an electro-magnet - realising that, that should magnatise Doc Ock so Spidey can get to Felicia and JJ. Of course this doesn't work out and so he then decides to threaten Doc Ock's work - "your lifes work for my friends". He knows he can't get past him forcefully so he has to think of a solution.

Now Spider-Man 3 should introduce this aspect. Sandman will be impossible to beat or subdue by puer force as he is a natural substance that will require another natural substance to slow him down - science.

Venom should also take some brain power as he is FAR stronger than Spidey...although Harry coming to his rescue will probably cancel out the brain power requirements. although he should still have to think of a way of seperating Eddie from the symbiote.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Thank you for answering Ock for me.

Oh the last paragraph is bliss. Yesssssssssssssssss, that's why I love VENOM. He's actually everything spider-man is and more, except where it really matters, the mind.

Wow, if raimi had spidey out smart venom, I'd faint in the theater.

 

[batman11]

exactly, which is why I believe sandman and venom will be the first villians to make spidey have to use brain power to defeat them. the reason why in spidey2 Ock got defeated by spidey was because spidey tired Ock with punches and Ock got electracuted which was absoloutley brain power. but if the villians are completley unstoppable then spidey has to think of ideas to either trick or lure the villian into a trap. So I think spidey will tire venom down with punches towards the end of the fight but then try's to get the symbiote off of Brock. now for all we know Harry might stab venom so then that would give a distraction so that peter can find a way to some how defeat venom. now the more knowledgeyou have the more you can use it to your advantage and when it comes to venom, spidey is going to need it.

Refer to the bolded part of the quote, I don't think that this is possible, Venom is a beast, and its gonna take more than some punches from Spidey to slow him down!

 

[shigsy2003]

Yes, I thought that's what he meant.

But, Ock and Goblin were emotional villains in the movies, with a connection to Peter. They were men he liked/respected. Their defeat had to be more than being smacked down by Spidey, or subdued by Spidey in some way.

Well thats what we are saying: we don't want the villians just to be smacked down by Spidey. We want Spidey to stop using all the muscles except for the brain. Obviously he has to fight sometimes but it would be nice if he had to to think of ways to defeat them. Rather than well both killing themselves. In 2 he speaks of intelligence but never really lets it show.

Spidey beat Norman down until he begged him to stop, and then unmasked himself to Peter. Of course, Norman ultimately caused his own demise. Spidey electrocuted Ock which subdued him a bit, and allowed Peter the chance to reason with Ock and make him see the error of his ways.

Again this isn't really showng how clever Peter is supposed to be. Electrocuting Ock would seem the most obvious thing to do with the tentacles being metal and all, and of course Norman did all the work for Spidey.

I don't know, I guess pulling a wall down on Goblin, or electrocuting Ock when he tried to stab Spidey, could be concieved as quick and smart thinking.

I guess but this is rather general. A brick wall is likely to stop a few people, he hasn't had to find something specific to stopping the Goblin.

Yes, well if what we've heard is true, it won't be any science that beats Sandman.

I assume here you are talking about his daughter. Which if true while slightly disappointing still won't detract from Peter's intelligence as we know for a fact he uses water against Sandman at some point in the film. This should subdue him for a bit as strength will get him no where.

With Venom, he's no emotionally powerful villain. He's basically a meat head with a chip on his shoulder. If there's one villain who can be taken for good with simple brute force or whatever, it's Venom.

I am not sure I understand this. Are you saying Spidey could beat Venom with pure brute force? If so how? Venom is far stronger than Spidey could ever hope to be, if Spidey is stupid enough to think he can win in a straight fight against him then he deserves to lose. In TAS, knowing Venom is to strong he leads him to the rocket launch base hoping that "the roar of the rocket forced the symbiote of Brock". Again using his brain.

Peter could use his smarts there to stop him, especially with the intimate knowledge of the symbiote that he'll have.

Exactly, he will have no choice but to use his smarts....but we are forgetting Harry comes to his rescue. Curses. Still I am keeping hope alive that Spidey will have to find a way to force the symbiote of Brock.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Refer to the bolded part of the quote, I don't think that this is possible, Venom is a beast, and its gonna take more than some punches from Spidey to slow him down!

not if spidey see's Harry get punched. spidey will then get raged up with anger and take it all out on venom. I mean almost all of the fight venom will kick the crap out spidey almost leaving him left for dead. but spidey has to get the upper hand on venom sometime in the fight, I mean spidey has to overcome venom in the fight no matter what and in fact it works out for the best if it starts with punches. though I think spidey will be so hurt he can barley stand.

 

[batman11]

not if spidey see's Harry get punched. spidey will then get raged up with anger and take it all out on venom. I mean almost all of the fight venom will kick the crap out spidey almost leaving him left for dead. but spidey has to get the upper hand on venom sometime in the fight, I mean spidey has to overcome venom in the fight no matter what and in fact it works out for the best if it starts with punches. though I think spidey will be so hurt he can barley stand.

I dunno, I personally feel the only way Spidey will get the upper hand is if Harry comes and distracts Venom by fighting him with pumpkin bombs and his glider, but thats just me. Then after this the symbiote may begin to leave Venom as it is taking to much pain from Harry (especially the "fiery" bombs, symbiote is afraid of fire) and may even try to go back to Spidey, I really don't know anymore I guess thats a good thing though, all the more reason to see the film!

 

[shigsy2003]

not if spidey see's Harry get punched. spidey will then get raged up with anger and take it all out on venom. I mean almost all of the fight venom will kick the crap out spidey almost leaving him left for dead. but spidey has to get the upper hand on venom sometime in the fight, I mean spidey has to overcome venom in the fight no matter what and in fact it works out for the best if it starts with punches. though I think spidey will be so hurt he can barley stand.

Lets refer to the trailer. We see Spidey lying on the floor costume torn to shreds with Venom's webbing around his neck. Spidey raises his hand (and the camera even pull focuses as does so) pleading for help from someone who is observing. It wouldn't take a rocket scienctist to conclude that this someone is Harry, debating whether or not to help Peter. Deciding to he swoops down, Venom takes his attention of Spidey and decides to get Harry out of the way, thus giving Peter some time to contemplate how to stop Venom. He will either figure it out to late and Harry gets killed OR just as Venom is about to deliver the final blow Spidey has an ingenious idea (maybe taunts Venom to get his attention) and puts his plan into action. Going from Comic and cartoon lore it should hve something to do with sound or fire.

Obviosuly all speculated but Spidey will only get the upper hand when Venom is concentrating on something else. This isn't like Norman saying "I'm gonna finish her nice and slow" Spidey getting angry and then nailing him...that approach won't work this time, Venom is far stronger.

Strategically Spidey will have to use the time Venom isn't focusing on him and think of something.

Roll on May 4th when we can see how wrong I really am..LOL.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I dunno, I personally feel the only way Spidey will get the upper hand is if Harry comes and distracts Venom by fighting him with pumpkin bombs and his glider, but thats just me.

thats what the script summary said as well which makes sense, so I'm not saying Harry can't do that because he can and it's a very useful distraction in my book. but what I was thinking is that harry comes and hits venom with his glider and throws pumpkin Bombs at him but then venom jumps out of the way of the pumpkin bombs and punches spidey once then goes to do it another time but then harry comes in the way of peter and takes punch (which was said in the script summary) which preety much kills him though Harry can be so close to death but not yet dead. then peter yells or something and runs towrds venom charging him with punches and kicks and with everything he has in his power but then venom punches spidey and knocks him out. so then Venom says something like, "say good night.....parker!", but then harry comes up from behind barley standing and stabs venom with his sword which makes the symbiote go off of brock but instantly kills brock. then the symbiote flows over peter almost then peter fights it off and the symbiote crawls away. or maybe while venom is distracted by harry, peter makes a vibration noise with something to weaken venom. I really don't know if harry will be the one to shank venom or not. I mean spidey has never killed anybody so I don't think he would actually kill eddie brock, which is making me wonder if harry will be the one to kill him or not. what do you guys think?

 

[batman11]

thats what the script summary said as well which makes sense, so I'm not saying Harry can't do that because he can and it's a very useful distraction in my book. but what I was thinking is that harry comes and hits venom with his glider and throws pumpkin Bombs at him but then venom jumps out of the way of the pumpkin bombs and punches spidey once then goes to do it another time but then harry comes in the way of peter and takes punch (which was said in the script summary) which preety much kills him though Harry can be so close to death but not yet dead. then peter yells or something and runs towrds venom charging him with punches and kicks and with everything he has in his power but then venom punches spidey and knocks him out. so then Venom says something like, "say good night.....parker!", but then harry comes up from behind barley standing and stabs venom with his sword which makes the symbiote go off of brock but instantly kills brock. then the symbiote flows over peter almost then peter fights it off and the symbiote crawls away. or maybe while venom is distracted by harry, peter makes a vibration noise with something to weaken venom. I really don't know if harry will be the one to shank venom or not. I mean spidey has never killed anybody so I don't think he would actually kill eddie brock, which is making me wonder if harry will be the one to kill him or not. what do you guys think?

I dunno about whether it will be Harry or Peter to kill Venom, but I know that the symbiote will definitely try to attach itself to Peter in that fight, hence the scene in the leaked trailer where Peter is lying down in a ripped costume without a mask, and the symbiote has attached itself to his face, pulling at his eyes and stuff. Whatever happens, it will be one wickedly cool scene thats for sure! t:

 

[The Joker]

Well thats what we are saying: we don't want the villians just to be smacked down by Spidey. We want Spidey to stop using all the muscles except for the brain. Obviously he has to fight sometimes but it would be nice if he had to to think of ways to defeat them. Rather than well both killing themselves. In 2 he speaks of intelligence but never really lets it show.

While I agree he should use more brains to match his brawn in the movies, I don't see what more he could have done in the Ock situation. They were in a warehouse.

He had to stop Ock and the reactor. To get to the reactor, he had to get thru Ock. And save MJ.

Again this isn't really showng how clever Peter is supposed to be. Electrocuting Ock would seem the most obvious thing to do with the tentacles being metal and all, and of course Norman did all the work for Spidey.

Electrocuting him was the ONLY thing to do. The power cable was right there, and Spidey was about to get stabbed.

And with Norman, he was down, but not out. Spidey had him beaten physically. It's why he pulled the sly stunt with the glider. He knew Peter had him cornered.

I guess but this is rather general. A brick wall is likely to stop a few people, he hasn't had to find something specific to stopping the Goblin.

Alot of Spidey's tricks can stop alot of people.

I assume here you are talking about his daughter. Which if true while slightly disappointing still won't detract from Peter's intelligence as we know for a fact he uses water against Sandman at some point in the film. This should subdue him for a bit as strength will get him no where.

Well, I think in the water incident, he's not trying to subdue Sandman. He's trying to kill him. He's symbiote Spidey then, and is mega pissed about the Uncle Ben thing.

Snamdna looks like he's in real pain in that water.

I am not sure I understand this. Are you saying Spidey could beat Venom with pure brute force? If so how? Venom is far stronger than Spidey could ever hope to be, if Spidey is stupid enough to think he can win in a straight fight against him then he deserves to lose. In TAS, knowing Venom is to strong he leads him to the rocket launch base hoping that "the roar of the rocket forced the symbiote of Brock". Again using his brain.

No, I'm saying all Spidey needs is to beat down Venom somehow. He doesn't need to confront him as a person, or reason with him etc like he did with Norman, Otto, and probably will with Flint Marko and Harry, too.

Brock is really nothing to him. He's just going to take him down somehow. And that will be that.

 

[E.Brock]

exactly, which is why I believe sandman and venom will be the first villians to make spidey have to use brain power to defeat them. the reason why in spidey2 Ock got defeated by spidey was because spidey tired Ock with punches and Ock got electracuted which was absoloutley brain power. but if the villians are completley unstoppable then spidey has to think of ideas to either trick or lure the villian into a trap. So I think spidey will tire venom down with punches towards the end of the fight but then try's to get the symbiote off of Brock. now for all we know Harry might stab venom so then that would give a distraction so that peter can find a way to some how defeat venom. now the more knowledgeyou have the more you can use it to your advantage and when it comes to venom, spidey is going to need it.

if spidey even comes close to gaining the upper hand on venom by using physical force then i will walk out of the theater

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

if spidey even comes close to gaining the upper hand on venom by using physical force then i will walk out of the theater

that wouln't be right. anyway I'm thinking like Harry will distract venom or something like someone else on here said. I mean Venom is MUCH stronger than spidey so yeah spidey shouldn't exactly gain the upper hand. venom is indeed spideys most toughest villian so I'm thinking harry will help peter try defeat Venom.

 

[War Party]

if spidey even comes close to gaining the upper hand on venom by using physical force then i will walk out of the theater

Well that would be stupid.