Official Contest of Marvels II Discussion Thread

[Phaedrus45]

Nope...check back after Wednesday of next week.

 

[Iceman]

Will do

I'm missing being involved in this now

 

[Phaedrus45]

I'm pretty jacked. I won an ebay auction for $20.00 on 3 Marvel Graphic Novels. They are God Loves, Man Kills, The Death of Captain Marvel, and Amazing Spider-Man: Hooky.



I used to own this, and am happy I found it. I would have paid 20 just for it. I asked the seller what prints they were, but he didn't understand the question at first. He claims they are all first prints. If so, it was a fantastic deal. (I'm hesitant, because he didn't seem too familiar with that concept.)

Also, I just received in the mail a copy of Daredevil 158 and 159. I had to pay 20 dollars for them, too, and they are only in Fine condition. But, it's nice to have them in my collection. For some reason, I've been able to get some decent deals on Daredevil comics lately.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

This season, when we made up the roster, we specifically wanted to select a certain type of Hulk. It wasn't going to be "the most recent" version, as the most recent was continually going through various changes. For that reason, we all voted and determined it would be "Savage Hulk" and that's why we didn't just specify the contest version as just "Hulk." This Hulk does not have the intelligence as you might have seen before. I'm positive JH will back this up; but, we'll wait to see what he also remembers.

You are saying this now whereas in December you told me this:

Well, as it says, "very similiar," but it doesn't say it is the Planet Hulk version. Planet Hulk is an ongoing storyline, and cannot be used. Basically, we were letting everyone know there are many versions of the Hulk, and that intelligence-wise, he's "very similiar" to the Planet Hulk version.

For reference, this post was made on the 1st of december on page 17 of the bracket thread.

My position is that we had already discussed this and unless you are going to give me an argument that you have changed your mind I think there is something wrong here. I am not an unreasonable sort and fundamentally, I do not think the level of intelligence of the Hulk should change too much about the character but you made a determining back in the early rounds and that determining should not change now that we are in the later rounds.

 

[Phaedrus45]

My position is that we had already discussed this and unless you are going to give me an argument that you have changed your mind I think there is something wrong here. I am not an unreasonable sort and fundamentally, I do not think the level of intelligence of the Hulk should change too much about the character but you made a determining back in the early rounds and that determining should not change now that we are in the later rounds.

This is one reason why we don't want to say directly like it's the Planet Hulk version. As you note, I say similiar; the problem lies in the fact that Hulk seemed to become a bit more intelligent as that storyline progressed. He was building on his past experience. Yes, he's "similiar," but that does not mean he's the same.

As I noted, he's not just the "Hulk Smash" Hulk....he's similiar to Planet Hulk, especially those early issues...but, he's not Planet Hulk, especially the one who became more intelligent as the series went on. (Again, this is why we say do not reference current storylines, because it will just lead to confusion, especially as the storylines progress and change the character somewhat.)

 

[Ahura Mazda]

This is one reason why we don't want to say directly like it's the Planet Hulk version. As you note, I say similiar; the problem lies in the fact that Hulk seemed to become a bit more intelligent as that storyline progressed. He was building on his past experience. Yes, he's "similiar," but that does not mean he's the same.

As I noted, he's not just the "Hulk Smash" Hulk....he's similiar to Planet Hulk, especially those early issues...but, he's not Planet Hulk, especially the one who became more intelligent as the series went on. (Again, this is why we say do not reference current storylines, because it will just lead to confusion, especially as the storylines progress and change the character somewhat.)

OK my only point is this is an intelligent hulk and not a stupid one. I am not claiming how intelligent he is just that he is not the stupid savage hulk of the early 80s. And the intelligence I was using was in reference to David's and Jones writings which preceded pak and Planet Hulk.

Also the uber mad I took was from being shot into space which happenned before Planet Hulk started and therefore from what you are saying should still be valid.

 

[Harlekin]

Lordy, I'm going to point this out once more. Either get rid of the Savage label or have Hulk be stupid. The savage Hulk has always been the incarnation that is dumb and wants to be left alone. BP is obviously not fighting Savage Hulk here. He's fighting 'current' Hulk.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Well, we haven't heard from JH yet. I do remember we wanted it to be "Savage" Hulk. It wasn't the current Hulk, especially since we continually saw different versions throughout the years before he was shot into space. We did want to give an idea of his intelligence by saying it was probably similiar to Planet Hulk; but, in my opinion, Planet Hulk Hulk seemed to become more intelligent as the story progressed. For this reason, we really shouldn't mention Planet Hulk.

This Hulk is not intelligent.

This Hulk is actually stronger than intelligent Hulk, especially the madder it gets. It is your "classic" Hulk, and I'm pretty positive that's what JH, Wiegeabo, Trigger and I determined when we chose him.

To me, the Hulk of the 80's fits pretty well. He was not the "Hulk Smash" Hulk, as I remember.

But, as I said, we really need to wait for JH to come online and put in his two cents. I want to make sure I'm on the same page as him with my memory.

 

[Phaedrus45]

On a lighter note, I saw one of the worst previews ever for a movie: DOA: Dead Or Alive. Yep, the one based on the girl fighting game from X-Box.

Now, I can't wait to see the new John Cusack movie...can't remember the exact name, something like 2408. It's based on a Stephen King short story, and it's about a haunted motel room. Looks really nice and creepy.

 

[wiegeabo]

1408. And it's in a hotel.

But, yeah, I want to see that one too. I watched the first trailer at work and I jumped at the scene with the window. Trailers never make me jump. And my friend watched it after I did, and he jumped at the same part too.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Well, we haven't heard from JH yet. I do remember we wanted it to be "Savage" Hulk. It wasn't the current Hulk, especially since we continually saw different versions throughout the years before he was shot into space. We did want to give an idea of his intelligence by saying it was probably similiar to Planet Hulk; but, in my opinion, Planet Hulk Hulk seemed to become more intelligent as the story progressed. For this reason, we really shouldn't mention Planet Hulk.

This Hulk is not intelligent.

This Hulk is actually stronger than intelligent Hulk, especially the madder it gets. It is your "classic" Hulk, and I'm pretty positive that's what JH, Wiegeabo, Trigger and I determined when we chose him.

To me, the Hulk of the 80's fits pretty well. He was not the "Hulk Smash" Hulk, as I remember.

But, as I said, we really need to wait for JH to come online and put in his two cents. I want to make sure I'm on the same page as him with my memory.

I am going to wait for JH's ruling but I will state right now if I am all of a sudden told that my Hulk is the 80s Hulk, I will have a hard time with it.

I have used in all my write ups the current Hulk pre-Planet Hulk using things like him having suvived Johnny's nova flame with no scars. In my last match up against Genis-vell, it was quite clear. Nobody argued the Hulk incarnation stating that this was the Hulk of the 80s. Now against a much weaker character and in a very late stage I am being told different.

I do not think it is right because if we are negating all the story lines that have happenned since the 80s then there are allot of upgrades (intelligence was just one of them, other things are the ability to change at a whim) my character does not have, and he should have lost to Genis-Vell.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I went back over the things I said and I see the confusion. I did state in one post that it is Hulk from before he was shot into space. He was more savage...and, it's my belief that during Planet Hulk he seemed to go through changes as the story progressed. But, I did say we don't want to mention Planet Hulk when talking about Hulk, and it does seem like that's been done quite a bit.

Again, it's obvious that Planet Hulk at the end isn't the same Hulk as when it began. Him being shot into space is part of the Planet Hulk storyline, too. I can also take a look at those issues before that storyline began. The word in problem is "intelligent." That Hulk does want one thing: To be left alone. Also, the more angry he gets, the stronger he gets. He's not a complete moron who only says "Hulk Smash." But, I would not label him as intelligent, either.

I did send JH another PM. I'm sure he's just been away from his computer all weekend, and hasn't seen the original.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I went back over the things I said and I see the confusion. I did state in one post that it is Hulk from before he was shot into space. He was more savage...and, it's my belief that during Planet Hulk he seemed to go through changes as the story progressed. But, I did say we don't want to mention Planet Hulk when talking about Hulk, and it does seem like that's been done quite a bit.

Again, it's obvious that Planet Hulk at the end isn't the same Hulk as when it began. Him being shot into space is part of the Planet Hulk storyline, too. I can also take a look at those issues before that storyline began. The word in problem is "intelligent." That Hulk does want one thing: To be left alone. Also, the more angry he gets, the stronger he gets. He's not a complete moron who only says "Hulk Smash." But, I would not label him as intelligent, either.

I did send JH another PM. I'm sure he's just been away from his computer all weekend, and hasn't seen the original.

He was shot into space before Planet Hulk started. It was the last page of the previous storyline which had the Hulk battling a satellite in space. Its the one where you have Fury's comment saying the Hulk will adapt to anything. the last panel shows his spaceship splitting up and him going into a vortex. In the comic it then says next month: Planet Hulk. I am using that last panel to give the Hulk's state of mind.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I'm still saying that is not allowed to be used. The writers said that him being shot into space was to be the prologue to the Planet Hulk storyline when it came out, and that for readers of it, they wanted them to know when to start reading.

 

[Harlekin]

So that means we've got the actual, y'know, Savage Hulk in the BP match? Would you mind stating that in the thread itself Phaed?

 

[Ahura Mazda]

OK am I allowed to use the story line where he defeats the satellite in space. That is a whole sperate story line which is 3 comics long.

 

[Harlekin]

Logically, that wouldn't apply. That wasn't Savage Hulk.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Again, I'm sorry it's taking so long. I really want to confer with JH about this before we make a decision. Plus, I want to look at the Hulk comics prior to him being shot into space. I'm really hoping he looks at this tonight. I'll make you two a deal, though. If it takes a while, I'll make sure debating doesn't end until you guys have two full days to debate properly. (Just in case he's really busy and won't be on in the next 24 hours.)

 

[JewishHobbit]

Okay guys... reminder..... was out of town on a non-hot tub camping trip!!! Enough PM's! I got home last night and played with my daughters and wife all night since I missed them and went to bed and went to work this morning and just got home. Havne't been around to get online.

Okay, that said, I will give my opinion on the Hulk thing. Phaed is correct in stating that this is Savage Hulk and not Pre-Planet Hulk. When he was comparing him to the Pre-Planet Hulk, he was making a point that this Savage Hulk is not the dumb idiot Hulk that he's steriotyped as, but a Savage Hulk with the ability to think decently. He's changed so often in the comics that Phaed was trying to just give a mentally it compare our Hulk to so we know where we stand. He is NOT the Pre-Planet Hulk, but his ability to think is something similar to that time frame. Basically, he's no Professor, but he's not quite the dumb nitwit Savage hulk either. We chose him to be somewhere between the two, which he's been (I believe) kinda sparatically through the years here and there. Ahura's mentioning and quoting from Pre-Planet Hulk prior to now has been a mistake on Phaed and my behalves for not catching it and correcting him... but that does lead into a problem we've created.

We did state that it was Savage Hulk, but I don't recall saying he was from the 80's (I think we assumed it, but never actually made it law). I think the fault is ours for not actually giving him a specific time frame. Especially since it can effect matches due to experience and locations and such. We should probably quickly find the timeframe in his history when he does match what we label him as (Savage with some intelligence). This sucks for everyone tramendously and it should have been caught earlier, but oh well. Let's figure it out real quick so Ahura and Harl can have their match done right.

Out of curiosity... how Savage and Intelligent was Hulk just prior to Planet Hulk? Does he fit the bill?

 

[Phaedrus45]

He might...that's why I wanted to look at those issues. The problem I had is before all this, Hulk was constantly going through many different identities due to Banner's psyche. Plus, Marvel did the lame "character is going to die" bit, saying Banner had cancer or something. I know when we were making the character lists, at times he's be Joe Fixit, Intelligent Hulk, or Savage Hulk. It was becoming really screwed up. Anyway, I have a ton of Hulk from issues 301 to recent. I'll try to find a recent one that would have what we envisioned.

 

[JewishHobbit]

For the record, if it fits, I'm not against him being Pre-Planet Hulk. Though the Prelude lead right into Planet Hulk and everything, it's comparable to Drax's mini to Annihilation. It led into it, but wasn't a part of it. I'm actually thinking it may be alright, provided the character's savagry fits what we wanted for his character.

 

[Harlekin]

Considering the pre-Planet Hulk issues had a Hulk that Banner could willingly turn into it, and was essentially a mixture of all the personalities, I don't think he counts.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Considering the pre-Planet Hulk issues had a Hulk that Banner could willingly turn into it, and was essentially a mixture of all the personalities, I don't think he counts.

That happenned during the Bruce Jones run and started at least a full year before Planet Hulk even started. that was not something new just in that 3-story comic line.

If I understood JH correctly, I can use thos story lines and therefore Banner can willfully turn into the Hulk.

 

[Harlekin]

Yeah, I know. Read this again though: Savage Hulk. Savagery is defined mostly by a lack of control. Having control over his transformations and being a mixture of the different incarnations means he's not SAVAGE Hulk.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Yeah, I know. Read this again though: Savage Hulk. Savagery is defined mostly by a lack of control. Having control over his transformations and being a mixture of the different incarnations means he's not SAVAGE Hulk.

As you well know there are 4 main incarnations of the Hulk:

Savage Hulk

Professor Hulk

Grey Hulk

Banner

There are loads of splinter incarnations as well.

The Savage Hulk character has evolved over the years to now know himself. He is a seperate personality yet accepts that Banner is a part of him. When Banner transformed during the Bruce Jones run to fight the Abomination, it was the Savage Hulk persona that took over.

This is still the Savage Hulk but the current version of him. This has been the Hulk really since the Heroes Reborn universe. I was never let to believe anything different until you brought this up. Now I am reading that people had different intentions. Yet this was never made clear before and nothing had been said throughout all the battles I have had previously.

This is the ability the Savage Hulk/Banner now have. It is also like his ability to beathe underwater which he achieved during David's run.

The character is better then he was and that is one of the reasons he was number 1 on my list and Thor was number 2 (that was a difficult decision).