Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 4

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[LOBO3315a]

The Necromancer is Sauron in disguise. He doesn't have his full power because Gollum still has the Ring. Bilbo finds the Ring, and should have it at the Battle of 5 Armies. Will be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out, as the Ring's influence only becomes stronger as it draws closer to Mt Doom.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

That's some pretty awesome news!

 

[RoboAmish]

Disliking this idea of Sauron being at the Battle of the Five Armies.

If he could lead the assault in person as the Necromancer, why didn't he bother leading the final battle at the Morannon in LOTR, because it makes about as much sense as this?

 

[Victarion]

So in terms of the books, after the Necromancer aka Sauron was ousted, he was left in a weakened state hence his seclusion in the Tower during LOTR?

 

[Figs]

So in terms of the books, after the Necromancer aka Sauron was ousted, he was left in a weakened state hence his seclusion in the Tower during LOTR?

That's what has me confused. In the beginning of LotR he basically exploded when he lost the ring. I thought after that all that was left of him was basically energy of some kind in the form of the great eye in Mordor.

Going by what appears to happen in the Hobbit movie, he explodes ages ago when losing the ring, then comes back somehow in disguise as the Necromancer. At least that's what I'm making out of it all.

 

[Destructus86]

So, i'm reading The Hobbit on my new kindle for the very first time. Really enjoying it!
I can see a few things i'm sure they will change in the film. Like the happy prancy elves singing. And possibly the lame Goblin song. And some of the dialogue.

 

[obin_gam]

That's what has me confused. In the beginning of LotR he basically exploded when he lost the ring. I thought after that all that was left of him was basically energy of some kind in the form of the great eye in Mordor.

Going by what appears to happen in the Hobbit movie, he explodes ages ago when losing the ring, then comes back somehow in disguise as the Necromancer. At least that's what I'm making out of it all.

So basically, Saurons carrier:
1. Have the ring and is supergod
2. Loses the ring and becomes mist
3. Manages to hide and rebild himself as The Necromancer
4. Gets driven by forces led by Gandalf to Mordor
5. Starting schemes to take revenge on Middlearth.
6. Gets destroyed by the ring getting destroyed.

?

 

[RoboAmish]

That's what has me confused. In the beginning of LotR he basically exploded when he lost the ring. I thought after that all that was left of him was basically energy of some kind in the form of the great eye in Mordor.

Going by what appears to happen in the Hobbit movie, he explodes ages ago when losing the ring, then comes back somehow in disguise as the Necromancer. At least that's what I'm making out of it all.

I wouldn't take the "Eye" too seriously, it's a VERY literal reading of the text by Jackson.

Sauron was merely a "spirit" for years but he was able to take a physical form in time as some sembelance of his power returned. The Necromancer was the first hint of Sauron taking physical form again and this somewhat carried over when he fled to Mordor. He did have a physical body in LOTR.

 

[Figs]

Oh ok, thanks for the explanation.

 

[regwec]

On the fence about the Sauron at the Five Armies thing.

The bad:

- Why must Sauron be at the center of all evil in Middle Earth? Orcs/goblins, wargs, trolls, barrow wights, mewlips etc all exist in the remote and gloomy corners of Middle Earth, waiting to do evil. I don't see why it has to be Sauron and not The Great Goblin who decides to take them to war.

- It cheapens Sauron, a bit. He should be the ultimate menace, so why is he showing his hand in this little squabble over a blingy rock?

- How does he get there? That takes a bit of working-in.

- Who does he face in the battlefield? Unless it's Gandalf, then there is no-one at 5 Armies who is comparable to Elendil, Isildur or Gil Galad. Okay, Sauron is weaker, but it diminishes his threat and again raises the question of why he has put himself at risk.

- The only reason I can deduce for his presence is that he knows Bilbo has the ring, and he has stalked the Hobbit from Mirkwood. This renders the passage of time between 5 Armies and LOTR inexplicable. Sauron knew the ring had been found, knew Bilbo had it, and would soon know where to find him. No one else knew what the ring was. Sauron would have the ring and be the ruler of the world in a few weeks. The whole business of the Nazgul's intelligence-gathering and the torture of Gollum need never have happened.

The good-

- The Hobbit was written before J.R.R Tolkien knew what the ring was. It's probably a good thing to introduce some foreshadowing/context.

- We don't know how The Necromancer will appear at 5 Armies. The best way of handling it, I think, would be to have him be in disguise. He could be a crooked, sickly and hooded traveller, passing through each army's camp in order to get closer to his prize. That could work.

- Really excited to hear BC as the voice of ultimate evil.

 

[LOBO3315a]

I wouldn't take the "Eye" too seriously, it's a VERY literal reading of the text by Jackson.

Sauron was merely a "spirit" for years but he was able to take a physical form in time as some sembelance of his power returned. The Necromancer was the first hint of Sauron taking physical form again and this somewhat carried over when he fled to Mordor. He did have a physical body in LOTR.

Yeah, the Eye wasn't Him in the book, it was just a tool he used to search for the Ring. Made more sense rather than having Him physically running around all over the place, looking for it.

 

[The Morningstar]

Yea, Benedict Cumberbatch is awesome. Have you heard his Alan Rickman impression?

 

[Drz]

I must have missed it, where does it say Sauron is at the Battle of the Five Armies?

 

[RoboAmish]

I must have missed it, where does it say Sauron is at the Battle of the Five Armies?

New possible spoilers (from CBM)
Holy Smokes! Benedict Cumberbatch Reveals A Major Change to the Finale of THE HOBBIT

During a Sherlock Homes set visit with the actor, Empire Magazine was able to pry a piece of juicy info from Benedict about The Hobbit If you're familiar with The Lord of the Rings than read the quote below carefully and try to figure out what the spoiler is.

I’m playing Smaug through motion-capture and voicing the Necromancer, which is a character in the Five Legions War or something which I’m meant to understand. He’s not actually in the original Hobbit.


When he says, "Five Legion War" he is referring to The Battle of Five Armies which is the final conflict in The Hobbit.

Readers will know that the Necromancer is Sauron, and that Gandalf disappears halfway through (the book of) The Hobbit to lead a coalition force and drive the Necromancer out of his Mirkwood stronghold. But in the book they dispatch the Necromancer back to (as it turns out) Mordor well before the Battle of Five Armies. Here, however, it looks like he's going to turn up to the finale in person, presumably at the head of the goblin and Warg army, and face Gandalf's team there.

On the fence about the Sauron at the Five Armies thing.

The bad:
- It cheapens Sauron, a bit. He should be the ultimate menace, so why is he showing his hand in this little squabble over a blingy rock?

This is essentially my main problem with it. I know there was the deeper meaning of the Quest of Erebor dispatching Smaug so he wouldn't be an issue and all, but really, the Battle of the Five Armies is a footnote in the history of Middle Earth. Why would Sauron play his cards at such a point?

 

[Victarion]

Are sure the Five Legions references the Battle of FIve Armies? It could refer to a gathering of the races Gandalf and the White Council bring into the Necromancer's stronghold.

Also, I understand that the Eye was a literal reading; I meant to ask: Is Sauron's defeat--while he is under the alias of the Necromancer--the reason that he didn't physically appear in LOTR?

 

[RoboAmish]

Are sure the Five Legions references the Battle of FIve Armies? It could refer to a gathering of the races Gandalf and the White Council bring into the Necromancer's stronghold.

Certainly conceivable but unlikely I think. But Cumberbatch seems unfamiliar with the text so he could just be getting mixed up.

Also, I understand that the Eye was a literal reading; I meant to ask: Is Sauron's defeat--while he is under the alias of the Necromancer--the reason that he didn't physically appear in LOTR?

No, in fact, he's probably even more powerful in LOTR. But he probably feels that he isn't strong enough to face the combined forces of Men yet and won't venture out until he's reclaimed his Ring. He's cautious and leaves the dirty work to his minions.

 

[Drz]

Man i dearly hope Sauron aint gonna be at the 5 Army battle, i was actually cool with the idea Sauron vs. Aragorn was gonna happen, because i disliked the whole literal-Eye thing hehe, but yeah if Sauron was at the battle and would know about who has the ring, it creates a massive plothole.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

but yeah if Sauron was at the battle and would know about who has the ring, it creates a massive plothole.

You don't think, among the hundreds of people who've read the script, that someone would have noticed something like that? Relax.

 

[regwec]

He isn't been unreasonable in thinking it a possibility that a plot hole might be permitted in order to deliver more "pay off" by having Sauron turn up at the end.

I think that Peter Jackson may, while treating these movies as parts 1/5 and 2/5 chronologically, also treat them as his final Middle Earth movies in general. It is possible that he might want to show the "big bad" of the entire franchise in the last Middle Earthian movie he releases.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Maybe he'll permit a few boom mikes in critical shots too, or maybe Bilbo will trip over a set of dolly tracks. I don't see it happening.

You're talking about, what 60-70 years of Sauron knowing exactly who has the Ring and where it is? That's not the sort of casual oopsie one just permits, that's a massive error. There's no way.

 

[craigdbfan]

I think in all likelihood BC got a bit confused and was referring to the White Council evicting the Necromancer (Sauron) from Dol Goldur. Which takes place a little after/during (varies from The Silmarillion and the LOTR appendices) the Battle of the 5 armies.

Seeing as BC is voicing both Smaug and the Necromancer it's easy to see how he kind of mixed the entire event into one.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

That would be my guess.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The info is actually pretty old I believe.

However, I think it is possible that the connection between Smaug and Sauron will be mentioned and that the army of goblins and wargs could belong to Sauron.