Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 5

[Whiskey Tango]

http://fashionablygeek.com/accessories/plush-hobbit-slippers/

[YT]Kp7tSAALecg[/YT]

 

[Spider-Who?]

I got The Hobbit and The LOTR trilogy in paperbook. Now Jackson gave us three (rightfully extended) movies from a combined count of about 1,400 pages.

How the hell is he going to three movies from a barely 300 book?!!

As has been said before, Jackson will be taking much of what is in The Appendices to flesh out The Hobbit, as well as adding to/expanding upon scenes that might be more brief in the original text. And lets be honest here, if you cut out all the "unnecessary" history, descriptions and "the fellowship walking around" parts of LotR, the actual pages necessary to the plot would probably be around 600-900 pages.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Looks like Jackson has taken one from Cameron's playbook and made the real characters look CGI-ish so that the actual CGI assets will blend in better.

 

[CGHulk]

Looks like Jackson has taken one from Cameron's playbook and made the real characters look CGI-ish so that the actual CGI assets will blend in better.

 

[marcvader]

Are you guys sure he's not playing an elf?

 

[CGHulk]

Are you guys sure he's not playing an elf?

He's a dwarf.

 

[Marvolo]

Looks like Jackson has taken one from Cameron's playbook and made the real characters look CGI-ish so that the actual CGI assets will blend in better.

Say what???

Lol i love that gif.

 

[matrix_ghost]

Theaters Will Not Charge Extra for 48fps Showings of THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY

Good.
In this day an age when you even have to pay the extra 3-d surcharge for half assed 3-d , it's nice to see prices being kept the same.
Of course this has to do with the reception the 48fps got but still.
Too bad only a select amount of theaters will be able to play 48fps because i am curious how it really looks. WOnder just how many theaters worldwide will be able to play 48fps

 

[marcvader]

He's a dwarf.

I was being facetious.

 

[Farren]

Does anyone else really, really hate the little advertising banners that now appear on the bottom of images posted here?

I'm not seeing them. Maybe because I have ad-blocker?

 

[Kane52630]

This is pretty cool

[YT]U5rc-5FinU4[/YT]

 

[CGHulk]

I was being facetious.

Actually I assumed you were just being a troll.

 

[obin_gam]

 

[regwec]

Sting and Glamdring are the only Elven swords in these films that look even faintly European. I appreciate the efforts made to ensure that all of Middle Earth's peoples have varied typology in their material cultures, but I don't think that Tolkien intended Men, Elves and Dwarves to be so alien from each other. My feeling is that between Men and Elves, a sword was a sword; and between Men and Dwarves, an axe was an axe. Only the Orcs, who used scimitars, seemed to have a completely different military technology.

PJ's Elves are a bit too "Samurai" for my liking.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Love those two images.

regwec, I see what you are saying and I kind of agree. I think instead of the style of weaponary, it should be the material they are made up of that shows the difference.

 

[Abudefduf]

He looks so benevolent. Thorin, please forgive my sins.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Sting and Glamdring are the only Elven swords in these films that look even faintly European.

Both Gondor and Rohan are very European in their styles. Rohan's weapons are very much inspired by Celtic swords, and Aragorn's sword is pretty much a German bastard sword.

I appreciate the efforts made to ensure that all of Middle Earth's peoples have varied typology in their material cultures, but I don't think that Tolkien intended Men, Elves and Dwarves to be so alien from each other. My feeling is that between Men and Elves, a sword was a sword; and between Men and Dwarves, an axe was an axe. Only the Orcs, who used scimitars, seemed to have a completely different military technology.

regwec, I see what you are saying and I kind of agree. I think instead of the style of weaponary, it should be the material they are made up of that shows the difference.

That's extremely subtle for a movie though. I for one LOVE the design aesthetic for each race. Why would two completely different cultures/races make the same style sword or axe? It's like saying the Chinese and the Persians should both have used shamshirs, because a "sword is just a sword" (which it never is) I don't think that gives any credit to the vast differences cultures have and how their weapon designs reflect their own needs and fighting styles.

PJ's Elves are a bit too "Samurai" for my liking.

I personally don't see it. What about them says samurai to you?

 

[marcvader]

Actually I assumed you were just being a troll.

lol...
















though I was just a teensie lil bit.

 

[superkong 500]

Damn thorin looks just badass and a bit feral and orcrist is just beautiful. I bet he can chop two orc heads with one swing of it.

 

[regwec]

Both Gondor and Rohan are very European in their styles. Rohan's weapons are very much inspired by Celtic swords, and Aragorn's sword is pretty much a German bastard sword.

Yes, which is why I said that the "Elven" swords didn't look European, with the exceptions of Sting and Glamdring.

For the record, Rohan's material culture is Anglo-Saxon/Vendel, not Celtic. Aragorn's sword is late Medieval in inspiration, presumably because that allows it to be bigger and more impressive than everyone else's, which is a decision I find unimaginative.

That's extremely subtle for a movie though. I for one LOVE the design aesthetic for each race. Why would two completely different cultures/races make the same style sword or axe? It's like saying the Chinese and the Persians should both have used shamshirs, because a "sword is just a sword" (which it never is)

But that's precisely the point I seek to make: I don't think Tolkien intended the "good peoples" of Middle Earth to be that culturally alien to each other, because they all stress different aspects of Northern European language and culture. The Rohirrim speak a version of Old English, the Elves speak a version of Welsh (Quenya) or Finnish (Sindarin), and the Dwarves speak a variation of Old Norse. The material culture of these historic peoples varied little: they fought with swords, spears and axes that looked much alike, wearing mail and helmets that looked similar, carrying round wooden shields that shared a basic design.

Remember that Tolkien intended Middle Earth to represent an invented mythology for England. It follows, I think, that their material culture of its inhabitents should be drawn from the Northern European environment of which England was a part. That means straight swords and chainmail, not curved scimitars and scale armour.

Remember that Tolkien didn't pull "Elves" or "Dwarves" out of the air: there was a time when people believed in these beings. Certainly, they were considered to be strange and probably magical and different from ordinary men and women; but would a pagan Saxon in 609 AD really think of them as "foreign"? I think not. I think they would have been perceived as a hidden and ancient aspect of their own culture; just how leprechauns are seen in Ireland.

This is borne out by the fact that the only straight bladed Elvish weapons we see are Sting and Glamdring. Why? Because they are used by Bilbo/Frodo and Gandalf, who both clearly belong to the European style human culture, and the production team realised it would seem incongruous to have them use Asiatic-style Elven weapons. So these two Elven swords are conveniently totally different in design to all the others.

They have tried to go half way with Thorin's sword, and turn into a single-edged falchion type thing. It is the only sword of its type in any of the movies, which is silly.

I personally don't see it. What about them says samurai to you?

When at leisure, the Elves wear flowing kamishimo type robes, with high "Nehru" collars. When at war, they fight with Asiatic composite bows and Naginata- watch the prologue of FOTR in particular. The scale mail has a Persian origin, but the cultural influences are all from either south of the Mediterranean or east of the Steppes. That culturally aligns the Elves with the Easterlings and Haradrim, not the Men or Dwarves with whom they share a millennia-long history of alliances and cultural interaction.

Let me stress that I do understand why the decision was made to make the "races" all culturally separate, and Weta certainly made an impressive effort to realise their objective. But I don't think it is what JRR T intended, and it throws up problems when you have to have Gandalf using a sword that looks like Gandalf's sword, and therefore eccentric in the context of its Elven typology.

 

[regwec]

I realise that this is probably boring to most, but just to demonstrate that you can show variation in design without implying massive cultural differences, let's suppose that our man has a material culture based on the Anglo-Saxons, and our Elf's draws on the La Tene Celts:

Man

 

[regwec]

Elf

I think they would look different enough without seeming like they come from different continents, or their weapons needing to be unusual designs in order to be interchanged.

 

[Lucien]

Orcrist, translating to "Goblin Cleaver ", actually makes sense to me being a single-edged sword. I never thought of it as one but I love the design.

 

[Spider-Who?]

For the record, Rohan's material culture is Anglo-Saxon/Vendel, not Celtic.

Like most of the races, WETA used inspiration from various cultures. It would be more accurate to say that Rohan is very much a "northern europe"-inspired culture as both anglo-saxon/vendel and yes, celtic references can be found heavily in the design motifs. The designers have said this.

Aragorn's sword is late Medieval in inspiration, presumably because that allows it to be bigger and more impressive than everyone else's, which is a decision I find unimaginative.

Aragorn's sword is a long sword, Germanic is origin, yes, but I would hardly call his more "impressive" than others. It's a fairly nondescript sword. And honestly, I find it funny that you want all of middle earth to be more European in design, but call aragorns long sword unimaginative.

I don't think Tolkien intended the "good peoples" of Middle Earth to be that culturally alien to each other, because they all stress different aspects of Northern European language and culture. The Rohirrim speak a version of Old English, the Elves speak a version of Welsh (Quenya) or Finnish (Sindarin), and the Dwarves speak a variation of Old Norse. The material culture of these historic peoples varied little: they fought with swords, spears and axes that looked much alike, wearing mail and helmets that looked similar, carrying round wooden shields that shared a basic design.

Remember that Tolkien intended Middle Earth to represent an invented mythology for England. It follows, I think, that their material culture of its inhabitents should be drawn from the Northern European environment of which England was a part. That means straight swords and chainmail, not curved scimitars and scale armour.

All very true, but I guess this is where you and I begin to differ in opinion:

Remember that Tolkien didn't pull "Elves" or "Dwarves" out of the air: there was a time when people believed in these beings. Certainly, they were considered to be strange and probably magical and different from ordinary men and women; but would a pagan Saxon in 609 AD really think of them as "foreign"? I think not. I think they would have been perceived as a hidden and ancient aspect of their own culture; just how leprechauns are seen in Ireland.

I believe you're putting too much of a historical context into a fictitious film. In Lord of the Rings, Elves ARE foreign - they're "not of" middle-earth (ie: europe). They are a mysterious and magical race, and the design motifs displaying this only helps illustrate this fact. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but I personally would HATE to see a Lord of the Rings film where everyone shared similar design motifs like you're suggesting. We are talking about VASTLY different RACES here, not different groups of human Europeans whose biggest differences are whose rule they follow.

This is borne out by the fact that the only straight bladed Elvish weapons we see are Sting and Glamdring. Why? Because they are used by Bilbo/Frodo and Gandalf, who both clearly belong to the European style human culture, and the production team realised it would seem incongruous to have them use Asiatic-style Elven weapons. So these two Elven swords are conveniently totally different in design to all the others.

Even though Sting is actually just a "simple" knife by Elven standards, I'll give you this one. But hey, it's the movies *shrugs*.

They have tried to go half way with Thorin's sword, and turn into a single-edged falchion type thing. It is the only sword of its type in any of the movies, which is silly.

We have yet to see the Hobbit, so it's kind of premature to say its the "only one". And to be fair, we only see one warrior dwarf in Lord of the Rings, and he doesn't even use a sword. But the single edged blade is not new to middle-earth as we see the orcs and other baddies using single edged weapons in the original films.

When at leisure, the Elves wear flowing kamishimo type robes, with high "Nehru" collars.

Minus inevitable similarities that come with robes, I just can't see it. Perhaps you're correct that WETA found some inspiration there, but I don't see it.

That culturally aligns the Elves with the Easterlings and Haradrim, not the Men or Dwarves with whom they share a millennia-long history of alliances and cultural interaction.

Yes but you have to remember, the Elves are isolationists for the vast majority of their time and consider themselves to be seperate from and better than the other races. They're very snobbish elitist to be blunt about it and take great pride in who they are. Keeping their culture from being "contaminated" by a lesser race's culture is very much in line with them. And using your reference, it would certainly make sense that such a vastly different and "otherworldly" race would look different and in the case of Tolkien inspiration, not of European influence.

Let me stress that I do understand why the decision was made to make the "races" all culturally separate, and Weta certainly made an impressive effort to realize their objective. But I don't think it is what JRR T intended, and it throws up problems when you have to have Gandalf using a sword that looks like Gandalf's sword, and therefore eccentric in the context of its Elven typology.

If giving Bilbo and Gandalf more european swords is the point of contention, I'll take it. Could Tolkien had envisioned elves, men and dwarves running around in the same gambesons and chain mail? It's possible, I'd concede even likely. But if that's the case, thank GOD John Howe and Alan Lee did their own thing, because for me, the designs of the cultures they created are a huge part of my love for the films. It would be a completely different (and to me, dull) experience if each culture were represented as similar as you're talking about.