Official Wolverine And The X-men, Episode 7 "Wolverine Vs. Hulk" Discussion Thread
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Ratcrawler
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Nothing that hasn't been said before I guess. It looks like we'll hafta wait for the HVW dvd before we get to see any real action cuz that was pathetic. Made me wonder why Wolvie unsheathed his claws at all.
ChaoticPsylocke
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i still wanna link please!
cerealkiller182
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Furys always had his own agenda even though hes seen as a hero more than a villain especially when it came to Wolvie, they always seem to have a tumultuous relationship
TheVileOne
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Fury always does crap like that.
TNC9852002
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I literally just watched it.
It's episodes like these that remind you of why the series is titled the way it is.
But, I'm liking these crossovers, though.
-TNC
It's episodes like these that remind you of why the series is titled the way it is.
But, I'm liking these crossovers, though.
-TNC
DMRadz
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It's episodes like these that remind you of why the series is titled the way it is.
Yea...unfortunately. Although, this episode is the type of episode I hate on any show. It was just an episode that was a side ep not on the focus of the main plot. If the episode never existed, you wouldn't even notice if you watched the whole season.
ChaoticPsylocke
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did anyone else notice that during their fight logan popped out is claws like every three seconds without every putting them back in? i found it kind of annoying.
I literally just watched it.
It's episodes like these that remind you of why the series is titled the way it is.
But, I'm liking these crossovers, though.
-TNC
Could you please PM me the link to the episode?
TNC9852002
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I didn't watch it from a website...
and the website that I do know of, they don't have this episode yet.
-TNC
Dread
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Finally managed to catch the episode a few days ago, but hadn't gotten the chance to write about it until now.
After limiting the title character to a cameo appearence in favor of Nightcrawler, the show gets back to what you would expect; all Wolverine, all the time. You want extra X-Men, ha-ha, joke's on you. They just serve as supporting cast to Logan, and can easily be replaced for an episode or two, or in some cases three or four. Where is all the talk about the rest of the X-Men being destined to be written fully and fleshed out now, huh?
This episode does have a major milestone; despite a rivalry that goes back over 30 years, this is the first time that Wolverine and Hulk have appeared together in a network TV show. UPN wanted to have Logan guest star in their 1996 INCREDIBLE HULK series, but they couldn't get the rights. And the only cameo Hulk made in the X-MEN show in the 90's was a robot in the Danger Room that Juggernaut smashed in "JUGGERNAUT RETURNS" (which was Season 4 or 5).
This also is one of the few times a non-mutant superhero besides Captain America appeared in an X-Men show beyond a silent cameo. Virtually all of the X-Men cartoons until now have preferred to keep things simple; to quietly imply that mutants are the only superhuman beings on Earth (besides robots, cyborgs, aliens, or other-dimensional beings, of course). Most shows presumably find explaining why mutants are hated and virtually lynched in the streets while non-mutant superhumans are often cheered and cherished in comparison as too complicated. Also, for legal reasons, past shows had clashing network interests; characters appearing on another network or so on. Of course, the Hulk fits into the tones of the X-Men in many ways; Banner cannot control the Hulk much as most mutants struggle to control their powers, and he is hunted by the authorities. He also is misunderstood. Fred Tatasciore, who voices Beast and others on the show, reprises his role as the Hulk, which he has had through various DTV's and shows for several years now.
The episode, however, is a let-down. It isn't terrible, but it isn't great, and falls around the middle-of-the road, mediocre territory. The plot is predictable, Saturday Morning fare, and the action scenes are underwhelming. I've seen better action sequences from TMNT: FAST FORWARD.
Still, I wouldn't consider it the show's worst episode so far. I liked it more than the Gambit one. Just after a cool Kurt episode, it doesn't fly. Right now one could call it a symbol of W&TXM so far; after starting off with a lot of potential and some good moments, it settles for underwhelming mediocrity. EVOLUTION chose to sacrifice action for characterization; W&TXM waxes and wanes on it's stories and action quality. This episode didn't stack up, and neither have a few of the past episodes.
After limiting the title character to a cameo appearence in favor of Nightcrawler, the show gets back to what you would expect; all Wolverine, all the time. You want extra X-Men, ha-ha, joke's on you. They just serve as supporting cast to Logan, and can easily be replaced for an episode or two, or in some cases three or four. Where is all the talk about the rest of the X-Men being destined to be written fully and fleshed out now, huh?
This episode does have a major milestone; despite a rivalry that goes back over 30 years, this is the first time that Wolverine and Hulk have appeared together in a network TV show. UPN wanted to have Logan guest star in their 1996 INCREDIBLE HULK series, but they couldn't get the rights. And the only cameo Hulk made in the X-MEN show in the 90's was a robot in the Danger Room that Juggernaut smashed in "JUGGERNAUT RETURNS" (which was Season 4 or 5).
This also is one of the few times a non-mutant superhero besides Captain America appeared in an X-Men show beyond a silent cameo. Virtually all of the X-Men cartoons until now have preferred to keep things simple; to quietly imply that mutants are the only superhuman beings on Earth (besides robots, cyborgs, aliens, or other-dimensional beings, of course). Most shows presumably find explaining why mutants are hated and virtually lynched in the streets while non-mutant superhumans are often cheered and cherished in comparison as too complicated. Also, for legal reasons, past shows had clashing network interests; characters appearing on another network or so on. Of course, the Hulk fits into the tones of the X-Men in many ways; Banner cannot control the Hulk much as most mutants struggle to control their powers, and he is hunted by the authorities. He also is misunderstood. Fred Tatasciore, who voices Beast and others on the show, reprises his role as the Hulk, which he has had through various DTV's and shows for several years now.
The episode, however, is a let-down. It isn't terrible, but it isn't great, and falls around the middle-of-the road, mediocre territory. The plot is predictable, Saturday Morning fare, and the action scenes are underwhelming. I've seen better action sequences from TMNT: FAST FORWARD.
Wolverine is plucked from another showdown with the MRD by Nick Fury and SHIELD, who all dress in funky Micromax helmets. This Nick Fury is African American like in Ultimate, but doesn't resemble Samual L. Jackson, which technically only happened once ULTIMATES started with photorealistic artist Bryan Hitch; Ult. Nick Fury had previously appeared in Ult. X-Men's second arc. He manipulates Wolverine into a rematch with the Hulk in the Canadian wilderness by threatening to deliver sensitive X-Men information to the senators who are hunting them. Logan naturally isn't thrilled, but agrees.
I can't say how well this episode ties into the HULK VS. DTV until I see the actual DTV, but for now the episode works fine on it's own. It alluded to a past conflict between Logan and Hulk years ago, before Wolverine was an X-Man and in a more primative version of his costume; there are two blink-and-miss flashbacks to this, and Hulk growls, "Hulk remem-ber yoooouuu!" This is the least of the episode's problems.
SHIELD agents in the area are hunting a creature called the Wendigo, or several of them, and Hulk is in the way, fighting the monsters as well. Wolverine has a fight with the Hulk, and that is where the issues start. He pops and sheathes his claws about once every minute, and it gets very distracting. This sometimes happened in the 90's series, but this was like 15 times in 10-15 minutes. It was ridiculous, why not just leave the claws out? Wolverine also is not allowed to cut anyone, which is shocking considering Hulk and the Wendigo's are clearly inhuman looking enough that BS & P usually isn't as stringent against violence; UPN got away with quite a few blows to the head in their '96 show, as did the FANTASTIC FOUR with The Thing and Hulk. This is 12 years later and censors on violence are not as strict. There is really little excuse for that, or the lame way Hulk is defeated (Wolverine shoves a grenade in his mouth, and that's it; Hulk passes out. It didn't even look especially powerful, nor was it a gas grenade).
Logan doesn't trust Fury and is aware that Banner can be cooperative. While Hulk recalls Wolverine, Banner doesn't. Banner claims that SHIELD brought him in to "cure" the Wendigo monster, but their chopper went down and Banner wants to reclaim the cure he invented to rid himself of the Hulk. The SHIELD agents the Wendigo took down turn into furry servants, not unlike werewolves. Banner has a youthful, mousey design and it isn't bad.
Wolverine gets into a fight with the Wendigo pack while Banner struggles to find his case of cures. The Hulk quickly re-emerges and Wolverine proves virtually useless in a fight until he grabs a tranq gun with the cure-darts, and virtually drops all of the furries. He backs down to the Hulk and the green guy leaves him alone in a very awkward sequence. Where's Logan's struggle with his own berserker fury? Gone. Nowhere. It makes him a much more generic clawed hero.
The Wendigo turns out to be a SHIELD experiment gone wrong. Because children are not allowed to see nudity, when people shift back, all of their clothes are intact with barely a hole in them. Wolverine sets up Hulk to attack SHIELD while resting peacefully in a crator after being thrown a good mile. Hmm...
The animation sometimes was inconsistant with the bulky figures; for every move that was good, there were 2-3 moves in the fight that stank or were underwhelming. Hulk probably got in some of the best moves, and a bit of it was left off-camera. Marvel cartoons have usually been hampered by lackluster fight sequences. Before this was rightly blamed on crushing censorship, but it's 2008 and it isn't as crushing. TMNT gets away with a lot more violence on ****ing Fox for chrissakes. There's no excuse for a lack of storyboard pacing skill, which is what it comes down to. Aside for ULTIMATE AVENGERS and SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, Marvel animation has never even tried to match the heights reached even in not-as-great DC animation like SUPERMAN: DOOMSDAY in terms of fight sequences.
I can't say how well this episode ties into the HULK VS. DTV until I see the actual DTV, but for now the episode works fine on it's own. It alluded to a past conflict between Logan and Hulk years ago, before Wolverine was an X-Man and in a more primative version of his costume; there are two blink-and-miss flashbacks to this, and Hulk growls, "Hulk remem-ber yoooouuu!" This is the least of the episode's problems.
SHIELD agents in the area are hunting a creature called the Wendigo, or several of them, and Hulk is in the way, fighting the monsters as well. Wolverine has a fight with the Hulk, and that is where the issues start. He pops and sheathes his claws about once every minute, and it gets very distracting. This sometimes happened in the 90's series, but this was like 15 times in 10-15 minutes. It was ridiculous, why not just leave the claws out? Wolverine also is not allowed to cut anyone, which is shocking considering Hulk and the Wendigo's are clearly inhuman looking enough that BS & P usually isn't as stringent against violence; UPN got away with quite a few blows to the head in their '96 show, as did the FANTASTIC FOUR with The Thing and Hulk. This is 12 years later and censors on violence are not as strict. There is really little excuse for that, or the lame way Hulk is defeated (Wolverine shoves a grenade in his mouth, and that's it; Hulk passes out. It didn't even look especially powerful, nor was it a gas grenade).
Logan doesn't trust Fury and is aware that Banner can be cooperative. While Hulk recalls Wolverine, Banner doesn't. Banner claims that SHIELD brought him in to "cure" the Wendigo monster, but their chopper went down and Banner wants to reclaim the cure he invented to rid himself of the Hulk. The SHIELD agents the Wendigo took down turn into furry servants, not unlike werewolves. Banner has a youthful, mousey design and it isn't bad.
Wolverine gets into a fight with the Wendigo pack while Banner struggles to find his case of cures. The Hulk quickly re-emerges and Wolverine proves virtually useless in a fight until he grabs a tranq gun with the cure-darts, and virtually drops all of the furries. He backs down to the Hulk and the green guy leaves him alone in a very awkward sequence. Where's Logan's struggle with his own berserker fury? Gone. Nowhere. It makes him a much more generic clawed hero.
The Wendigo turns out to be a SHIELD experiment gone wrong. Because children are not allowed to see nudity, when people shift back, all of their clothes are intact with barely a hole in them. Wolverine sets up Hulk to attack SHIELD while resting peacefully in a crator after being thrown a good mile. Hmm...
The animation sometimes was inconsistant with the bulky figures; for every move that was good, there were 2-3 moves in the fight that stank or were underwhelming. Hulk probably got in some of the best moves, and a bit of it was left off-camera. Marvel cartoons have usually been hampered by lackluster fight sequences. Before this was rightly blamed on crushing censorship, but it's 2008 and it isn't as crushing. TMNT gets away with a lot more violence on ****ing Fox for chrissakes. There's no excuse for a lack of storyboard pacing skill, which is what it comes down to. Aside for ULTIMATE AVENGERS and SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, Marvel animation has never even tried to match the heights reached even in not-as-great DC animation like SUPERMAN: DOOMSDAY in terms of fight sequences.
Still, I wouldn't consider it the show's worst episode so far. I liked it more than the Gambit one. Just after a cool Kurt episode, it doesn't fly. Right now one could call it a symbol of W&TXM so far; after starting off with a lot of potential and some good moments, it settles for underwhelming mediocrity. EVOLUTION chose to sacrifice action for characterization; W&TXM waxes and wanes on it's stories and action quality. This episode didn't stack up, and neither have a few of the past episodes.
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TheVileOne
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They are fleshing out other characters in recent episodes.
Based off this episode by itself, it doesn't really connect with Hulk vs. Wolverine at all. There are too many contradictions.
Dread
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I see. Like I said, not meshing with HULK VS. was the last of the episode's problems, and didn't matter to me anyway.
Yeah, the show has fleshed out some other characters, but the team has been limited for the last 3 episodes. Emma was great in "African Storm", but has done little since. Beast has been out for 3 episodes, as have Cyclops and Iceman. Both of them are bare bones characters (Iceman an eager hero, and Cyclops a mute sissy). Nightcrawler got a great focus episode, but he hasn't been back either, and that's no more than Gambit got. You've once said that the show places more focus on stories and action that on the intense character interaction of Evolution, and that's correct. The dilemma is that means the episodes usually are only as strong as the action or stories.
I disagree with the idea that this was the show's worst episode, though. It wasn't horrible. Just too underwhelming and average.
Every show is allowed some mediocre or even bad episodes for a first season (especially within the first 13 episodes); the only worry is if they start to pile up. Only SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN appeared to transcend that rule.
In making Logan the star, they verge on making him more generic. There's no berserker rage struggle. He has the dark past, but it doesn't come up much. He sometimes does something unorthodox, but so does every single team leader in virtually any TV show, even friggin' Power Rangers. With Logan as the star, who he was depended on how he interacted with others, and that is hit or miss, as he can't be a rebel and a leader. I am starting to fear that in the zeal to capitalize on the X-Men's most popular character, he has become less than he could be. There was potential here in this episode, but it came for naught.
Still, getting Wolverine vs. Hulk on a TV show is worth the novelty.
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Dread
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It's Wolverine. Every X-Men show has an episode or two about Logan's dark past. It's a given. It's like Spider-Man and missing a date. It's standard procedure.
DMRadz
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It's Wolverine. Every X-Men show has an episode or two about Logan's dark past. It's a given. It's like Spider-Man and missing a date. It's standard procedure.
They might have stories involving things from his past, but I don't see too many flashback stuff. I think the tone was set when Xavier basically said the world is doomed if Wolverine doesn't lead the X-Men in preventing this future. They are going to focus on Wolverine doing things to lead and prevent and not what's happened in his life. After all, its not debuting in the USA until the movie is due out. When the movie is out, the past will be covered leaving them no point to really touch upon his past in this series.
TheVileOne
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Nightcrawler just had an episode.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
DMRadz
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Man of little words
fatcomputernerd
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I thought it was a good episode
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