Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[mizeidman]

Something I said?

It's true though. Think about it.

Pro-Scott: It shoulda been Scott there for Jean.

Pro-Logan: He woulda never made it, cause no healing factor.

Pro-Scott: Phoenix coulda killed Logan with a thought, just like she demolecularized everything else instantly.

Pro-Logan: But she didn't because he was testing/playing with him.

Pro-Scott: So why couldn't Phoenix toy with Scott?

Pretty sure who won that one.



Um, yes? That's what fighter jets do. Go fast. BTW, 600mph is NOT fast for a fighter jet. Just so you know.

And in your Phoenix argument...she's still toying with Logan right? So again, why can't she toy with Scott?

I am not saying it should have been logan. I would have preferred scott, for dramatic purposes. However, you pro scott people love to think that she should have just obliterated logan, and wouldnt have been able to if it were scott. those of us who understand that X3 does not take place within the comic world understand that she wouldnt have had an issue killing scott either.

Regarding the phoenix torture argument, you clearly missed my point. It isnt that she cant toy with scott. She doesnt want to. Like I stated earlier: how many people do you know that would accelerate slowly on their newly acquired jet. Unfortunatly I am not knowledgable on fighter jet speeds, but I would venture to say that people would go as fast as they could as early as they could, and worry about the inbetween later.

Jean did the same. Use powers to the max first (i.e Scott) then toy around later (killing prof. slowly while manipulating the house and its inhabitants, degredate wolverine slowly while having total control over alcatraz island and its surroundings.

Whats sad is that I just said the exact same thing as I did last time. Perhaps this time you will pick up more than my fighter jet speed error.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Something I said?

It's true though. Think about it.

Pro-Scott: It shoulda been Scott there for Jean.

Pro-Logan: He woulda never made it, cause no healing factor.

Pro-Scott: Phoenix coulda killed Logan with a thought, just like she demolecularized everything else instantly.

Pro-Logan: But she didn't because he was testing/playing with him.

Pro-Scott: So why couldn't Phoenix toy with Scott?

Pretty sure who won that one.



Um, yes? That's what fighter jets do. Go fast. BTW, 600mph is NOT fast for a fighter jet. Just so you know.

And in your Phoenix argument...she's still toying with Logan right? So again, why can't she toy with Scott?

Did I also say that Scott should have been there for Jean? yes in a way but I didn't like the way he was written out of the movie. I've seen TAS version of the phoenix saga (both of them) and yeah I've said it many times that I prefer Scott bringing jean to her senses but still it didn't happen that way. I was disappointed...still am but what can u do? I knew there was gonna be changes to the story so it could fit wthin the movie-verse part of it. Again, I'm disappointed. As much as I like JELO, I can never get enough of JESO... er...LOL JESO hehe

anyway...blame the writers cause of Scott's role or blame fox.

anyway... I still liked the scene though. but thats my opinion. I think it adds closure to Jean/Logan's relationship or friendship whatever u wanna call it. case closed.

Jean dies to be with Scott in the end (if he did die)...hmmm. that i like too.

 

[D-scythe]

I am not saying it should have been logan. I would have preferred scott, for dramatic purposes. However, you pro scott people love to think that she should have just obliterated logan, and wouldnt have been able to if it were scott. those of us who understand that X3 does not take place within the comic world understand that she wouldnt have had an issue killing scott either.

Wait, full stop. Firstly, I'm not pro-Scott. In this case I am, but I'm pro-X-Men. Secondly, it shoulda been Scott instead of Logan - pick your reason, there are many to choose from. However, there are some pro-Logan people saying Phoenix would've killed Scott before he got close.

The counter-argument is that she coulda just as easily killed Logan. But she didn't, she let him get close. So why wouldn't she not kill Scott?

Regarding the phoenix torture argument, you clearly missed my point. It isnt that she cant toy with scott. She doesnt want to.

But she would want to toy with Logan so he can walk up and stab her?

Like I stated earlier: how many people do you know that would accelerate slowly on their newly acquired jet. Unfortunatly I am not knowledgable on fighter jet speeds, but I would venture to say that people would go as fast as they could as early as they could, and worry about the inbetween later.

I sorta am, and no, that's not really how they operate. Don't want to sound snobby, you bring up a good point that I understand. I know what you're trying to get at, but I just don't see it.

Jean did the same. Use powers to the max first (i.e Scott) then toy around later (killing prof. slowly while manipulating the house and its inhabitants, degredate wolverine slowly while having total control over alcatraz island and its surroundings.

That is one possibility yes. But again, in terms of the pro-Logan argument, it does not support it. If Logan coulda made it to Jean, then so could Scott.

Whats sad is that I just said the exact same thing as I did last time. Perhaps this time you will pick up more than my fighter jet speed error.

Maybe. I have a different opinion, that's all, but I think that's fine. People should have different opinions.

Oh, for future reference, the top speed typically for most fighter jets is 1300 mph, approx. It depends on altitude, but 1300 mph is about twice the speed of sound.

 

[D-scythe]

Did I also say that Scott should have been there for Jean? yes in a way but I didn't like the way he was written out of the movie. I've seen TAS version of the phoenix saga (both of them) and yeah I've said it many times that I prefer Scott bringing jean to her senses but still it didn't happen that way. I was disappointed...still am but what can u do? I knew there was gonna be changes to the story so it could fit wthin the movie-verse part of it. Again, I'm disappointed. As much as I like JELO, I can never get enough of JESO... er...LOL JESO hehe

anyway...blame the writers cause of Scott's role or blame fox.

anyway... I still liked the scene though. but thats my opinion. I think it adds closure to Jean/Logan's relationship or friendship whatever u wanna call it. case closed.

Jean dies to be with Scott in the end (if he did die)...hmmm. that i like too.

No, I'm cool with what you're saying. You just rolled your eyes at me when I was proved that if Logan could make it to Jean, then so could Scott, that's all.

Again, not trying to be hostile or anything. Both sides of this discussion have their merits. I'm just pointing out contradiction in people's logic, and this time it's with the pro-Logan people.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

No, I'm cool with what you're saying. You just rolled your eyes at me when I was proved that if Logan could make it to Jean, then so could Scott, that's all.

Again, not trying to be hostile or anything. Both sides of this discussion have their merits. I'm just pointing out contradiction in people's logic, and this time it's with the pro-Logan people.

oh i see... so..we're cool right ?

 

[mizeidman]

Wait, full stop. Firstly, I'm not pro-Scott. In this case I am, but I'm pro-X-Men. Secondly, it shoulda been Scott instead of Logan - pick your reason, there are many to choose from. However, there are some pro-Logan people saying Phoenix would've killed Scott before he got close.

The counter-argument is that she coulda just as easily killed Logan. But she didn't, she let him get close. So why wouldn't she not kill Scott?



But she would want to toy with Logan so he can walk up and stab her?



I sorta am, and no, that's not really how they operate. Don't want to sound snobby, you bring up a good point that I understand. I know what you're trying to get at, but I just don't see it.




That is one possibility yes. But again, in terms of the pro-Logan argument, it does not support it. If Logan coulda made it to Jean, then so could Scott.



Maybe. I have a different opinion, that's all, but I think that's fine. People should have different opinions.

Oh, for future reference, the top speed typically for most fighter jets is 1300 mph, approx. It depends on altitude, but 1300 mph is about twice the speed of sound.

Phoenix wasnt toying with logan so that he could stab her. Like i said in my first post, the only reason he was able to stab her is because what he said somehow triggered jean to gain control of herself again, allowing her to drop any sort of defense. Perhaps the phoenix wanted logan to die right infront of her, maybe she wanted to watch the lights leave his eyes. Or maybe she was just having some fun.

I am by no means pro scott or wolverine, i consider myself pro x-men, and the only one I would favor is jean anyways. I believe scott could have made it to jean. It wasnt logans healing powers that let him get up there, she clearly let him. do we forget her telekinesis abilities do allow her to repel people or stop people? If she wanted him away he would have been away.

 

[Loganbabe]

And it's funny how some people are seeing things that just aren't there. And judging from your name, it's obvious who you're rooting for

So I guess you´re the one enlightened enough to show us how things are supposed to be?
An opinion is an opinion. I can agree with someone else´s opinion, but I also have my own opinion. And you´re judging people´s opinions based on their screen names.

 

[mizeidman]

well not to get into this one, but when your screen name is logan babe, i would use my normal human cognitive abilities to decide you probably like logan, and support him. I dont think that is unreasonable.

 

[D-scythe]

Haha, I don't know what we're discussing about then, Darkness, Mizzy. Basically we're saying the same thing. Anyway, if I said anything offensive (I really didn't mean to, just wanted to point out some stuff) then my bad.

Just for the record, if I did not know who Cyke, Jean or Logan was, that scene would have been fun to watch.

So I guess you´re the one enlightened enough to show us how things are supposed to be?

An opinion is an opinion. I can agree with someone else´s opinion, but I also have my own opinion. And you´re judging people´s opinions based on their screen names.

I stated opinions were fine. But when you make statements like "some people just don't see it," you can't really blame me for taking some offense, can you?

 

[mizeidman]

thats for damn sure.

damn james mardsen for going over to superman, you know this is really his fault.

 

[Hulkster]

It's not James Marden's fault, because in X2 he had all the time in the world but look at what Fox did to him, they reduced his role.

 

[Radagast_Prime]

It's not James Marden's fault, because in X2 he had all the time in the world but look at what Fox did to him, they reduced his role.

Exacty, but at least in God loves man kills hes not at the core of the story thats the only reason I didn't have such a problem with his screen time. But with Dark Pheonix there is no excuse!!

 

[GambitXremy]

they took alot of the jean logan relationship from grant's run on new x-men

 

[Loganbabe]

well not to get into this one, but when your screen name is logan babe, i would use my normal human cognitive abilities to decide you probably like logan, and support him. I dont think that is unreasonable.

Of course I like and support Logan, but it doesn´t mean that everything I say will be anti-Scott or something. It´s ridiculous.
That´s what I said about judging people´s opinions because of their screen names. My name could be "mizeidman", or "pinkfrog" or whatever. I never pay attention to people´s names, only to what they say - or write.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Nothing to think about. It's just your opinion. Xavier never mind-controlled Jean, just put in mental blocks. Jean coulda very well fell in love with Scott for Scott.

???

If Xavier tampered with her mind to the point of creating dual personalities "in their sessions", he did indeed "mind-control" Jean. Her psyche was no longer unadulterated after he got through with her. He conditioned her, and suppressed half of her conscience. Let's not delve into semantics here...

And "bad" Jean never told Logan she loved him either (despite many instances where she coulda done so), but you conveniently omitted that fact..

I omitted nothing. I don't believe Jean loved Logan either. She lusted for him and that's where it ends. I'm questioning whether she ever truly loved Scott...in other words which "Jean" is the true version of her self had Xavier not tampered with her?

Jean's loyalties in X3 were virtually nonexistent. The only way she was stopped in this film was not via reasoning or appeals to her common sense (areas where Xavier and Erik failed) but death at the hands of Logan. That means that her attachments to the people in her life before meant zero overall in this saga.

The 616 Jean is not like that. Spontaneous, proud, exuberant, out-going maybe, but rebellious? Defiant? But this is the movies, meh.

Why are you bringing up 616? This entire trilogy has been a major departure from the source material. It'd be best to debate this based on evidence in the actual films; the comics have little relevance here.

Oh yeah Lightning, it was established she was schizophrenic too. Thanks for leaving that part out as well. But hey, whatever matches your opinion right?

Keep the personalization out of this convo please. If you're going to debate, do so without the jabs. I am fully aware that the character is schizo, and never implied she wasn't.

Now, regarding your comment on schizophrenia: What percentage was shown of "Jean" vs. Dark Phoenix in this film? I'd say 95% of what we saw was Dark Phoenix...from the moment she woke up in Xavier's lab to her death in Act III.

Her schizophrenia seemed pretty consistent in one direction--towards evil, wouldn't you agree? Yes, she recognizes people like Logan etc. Yes, she has momentary lapses in memory. But aside from that, she's on a warpath. She did not think twice about killing Charles...and only a glimmer (what I'll call 5%) of her desire to be "saved" showed through. Let's revisit the facts:

She killed Xavier.

She killed Scott.

She tried killing Logan.

And if Storm had approached her, Jean certainly would've killed her too.

She did not help her fellow X-Men in Act III.

She recklessly supported Magneto to the very end.

There was no remorse.

When I see such behavior it's hard for me to believe that she would ever have joined Xavier's cause--let alone having that major foundation in common with Scott--if Charles hadn't dinked with her mind in the first place.

 

[Malus]

When I see such behavior it's hard for me to believe that she would ever have joined Xavier's cause--let alone having that major foundation in common with Scott--if Charles hadn't dinked with her mind in the first place.

Agreed. It's hard to imagine this Jean ever played "happy school" with Scott & company...
Of course they can always go back to the comics, and what we saw in X3 wasn't Jean at all, but rather a physical manifestation of the Pheonix - albeit with traces of Jean, and that's what Xavier and Wolverine were actually appealing to.
Jean Grey is still at the bottom of the lake, in that "energy coccoon" that Xavier hypothosized she could have created.

(I think it's worth noting that "Jean" emerged from the lake immediately following Scott's outburst of rage.)

After all, that is just how she was brought back in 1986. The Jean Grey/Pheonix that destroyed an entire planet of Asparagus people and later took her own life on the moon to keep from losing control again...that was not Jean. And theoretically, neither was the character we saw in X3.

Just a thought.

 

[britrogue]

I liked it. It would have been better if it was Scott and not Logan, but there you go, it still worked.

 

[The Batman]

i was about to tell LS he was full of crap...till i realized he had a point, and realized he wasnt trying to say she loved logan more. she didnt. she just wanted to bang him, nothin more, nothin less....

I honestly doubt Jean loved scott in the movies sometimes...

 

[TrailerMusic]

I'm surprised after 3 pages that people here are actually talking about JEAN vs. Logan, when what we've seen in X1 and X2 was clearly never the *true* Jean.

Ladies and Gents: We must remember that X1 and X2's "Jean" was a biproduct of Xavier's manipulation. The calm, controlled version was brought to the fore via his training and mental blocks.

The "Jean" we saw at the end of X3 was a total match personality-wise to the Young Jean Grey we were introduced to at the film's outset: Rebellious, defiant, somewhat disrespectful and full of life and rage. THAT was the "Jean" that subconciously was always drawn to Logan; therefore the attachment X1/X2's "Jean" had to Scott was as superficial as the pseudo-facade Xavier produced in her over the years.

So while the surface Jean loved Scott dearly, we have to admit that that person was GONE in X3. Don't believe me? Well, if that "Jean" was anywhere near reality Professor X--the man whose forehead she kissed compassionately as a father figure--wouldn't have been demolecularized.

Bottom line: The real "Jean" HATED Charles Xavier...and had likely done so from childhood. She resented him and all that he stood for. Subtract his cunning mental blocks and all of that came to the fore. So what does that say for whatever loving attachment she had for Scott Summers? It's all superficial my friends...all of those relationships were based on a lie.

Something to think about.

It would have been JUST AS EASILY to re write things in Scotts favor & had him in Logans place at the end. But you seem to ignore the fact that FOX had an agenda & letted their obsession with the Character of "Wolverine" get in the way. They messed up one thing they could have EASILY GOT RIGHT & change it to fit the Movies but as I said FOX had an agenda & Wolverine is their Main Character.

Bottom Line: You make it sound like it would be impossible to have Scott be the one to stop Pheonix in the Movie when it isnt & as I said FOX had an agenda & Wolverine is their Main Character

Something to think about.

 

[The Batman]

like i said...people here have NO imagination.

its funny that scott managed to stop phoenix in the comics....didnt even get scratch doing it!

Something to think about before ignorantly saying only logan could help her.

 

[D-scythe]

If Xavier tampered with her mind to the point of creating dual personalities "in their sessions", he did indeed "mind-control" Jean. Her psyche was no longer unadulterated after he got through with her. He conditioned her, and suppressed half of her conscience. Let's not delve into semantics here...

How did you equate all that mind-control crap with Xavier putting mental blocks in her mind? And Xavier didn't create the dual personalities either.

I think you're looking for something that is definitely not there. But it's debatable, I suppose. It wasn't explicitly stated what effects Xavier's therapy had on Jean.

I omitted nothing. I don't believe Jean loved Logan either. She lusted for him and that's where it ends. I'm questioning whether she ever truly loved Scott...in other words which "Jean" is the true version of her self had Xavier not tampered with her?

Ok, now I see your point. I think, however, that no matter what I say, I'm not going to change your mind, so I'm not going to try. The movie left many things open to interpretations.

Why are you bringing up 616? This entire trilogy has been a major departure from the source material. It'd be best to debate this based on evidence in the actual films; the comics have little relevance here.

In terms of characterization, X1 and X2 have been pretty faithful to 616.

Now, regarding your comment on schizophrenia: What percentage was shown of "Jean" vs. Dark Phoenix in this film? I'd say 95% of what we saw was Dark Phoenix...from the moment she woke up in Xavier's lab to her death in Act III.

Her schizophrenia seemed pretty consistent in one direction--towards evil, wouldn't you agree? Yes, she recognizes people like Logan etc. Yes, she has momentary lapses in memory. But aside from that, she's on a warpath. She did not think twice about killing Charles...and only a glimmer (what I'll call 5%) of her desire to be "saved" showed through. Let's revisit the facts:

She killed Xavier.

She killed Scott.

She tried killing Logan.

And if Storm had approached her, Jean certainly would've killed her too.

She did not help her fellow X-Men in Act III.

She recklessly supported Magneto to the very end.

There was no remorse.

When I see such behavior it's hard for me to believe that she would ever have joined Xavier's cause--let alone having that major foundation in common with Scott--if Charles hadn't dinked with her mind in the first place.

Your trying to explain the actions of a schizophrenic? It doesn't matter which personality was dominant, Jean was still schizophrenic. You can't really explain the behaviour of someone like that.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

I did .

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I did .

Me too!!

-pounces- Im gonna see x-men3 again today! yay...my dad is coming with me

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

It would have been JUST AS EASILY to re write things in Scotts favor & had him in Logans place at the end. But you seem to ignore the fact that FOX had an agenda & letted their obsession with the Character of "Wolverine" get in the way. They messed up one thing they could have EASILY GOT RIGHT & change it to fit the Movies but as I said FOX had an agenda & Wolverine is their Main Character.

What are you talking about? Who said that wasn't the case? From what I can tell no one in this thread insinuated that...in fact, we're not even talking about FOX's "agenda".

We're discussing the depth of love Jean had for Scott in these films, versus her lust for Wolverine (But since you bring it up, I would like to point out that Singer and Shuler-Donner's fascination with Logan's backstory is what motivated them to put him front and center as the franchise's posterboy. In a way, X3's simply following the character arc already put in place six years ago).

Bottom Line: You make it sound like it would be impossible to have Scott be the one to stop Pheonix in the Movie when it isnt & as I said FOX had an agenda & Wolverine is their Main Character

Something to think about.

Um...

I think you may have jumped into the middle of a debate without reading the context of this discussion. You might want to reread everyone's thoughts--including mine--because you seem to be on a different topic here. We're not talking about studio politics...we're discussing movie canon.

 

[TrailerMusic]

We're not talking about studio politics...we're discussing movie canon.

& I am discussing what could have been had it not been for Studio Politics You have to admit that had the Studio not been complete *******s things would have turned out differently