Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[Lightning Strykez!]

How did you equate all that mind-control crap with Xavier putting mental blocks in her mind? And Xavier didn't create the dual personalities either.

From what I recall the dual personalities came as a result of his manipulation...remember their "sessions" that he alluded to? So when considering the laws of cause and effect, Xavier would be responsible for the mental trauma she underwent--even if you consider it "indirectly".

I think you're looking for something that is definitely not there. But it's debatable, I suppose. It wasn't explicitly stated what effects Xavier's therapy had on Jean.

See my comments above. It was also stated that it was "unknown" how much Jean was aware of what he was doing. What we DO know is that once those circuit breakers were gone, she was extremely resentful of what he had done.

Although we had only a brief glimpse of her childhood, Young Jean Grey didn't appear to have mental problems, nor did her parents allude to that. But she certainly did have those problems post-Xavier. That's why he was working so dilligently to restore them...he realize that without those brakes in place now, she'd be unpredictably dangerous, hence his "you have no idea what she's capable of" comment to Logan.

Ok, now I see your point. I think, however, that no matter what I say, I'm not going to change your mind, so I'm not going to try.

Not necessarily. Actually, some of what I'm saying now is an amalgam of thoughts that my friends and I debated late into the evening last Friday. I've already adopted certain viewpoints of others on this matter because they made sense to me. It's like connecting the dots so-to-speak.

And that's the beauty of debate.

In terms of characterization, X1 and X2 have been pretty faithful to 616..

Erm, IMO in relation to Scott and Storm they weren't...especially in the characterization of the latter. But that's another topic.

Your trying to explain the actions of a schizophrenic? It doesn't matter which personality was dominant, Jean was still schizophrenic. You can't really explain the behaviour of someone like that.

Agreed. There is no "textbook" personality profile for schizophrenics. Some, however do have a more dominant personality--we can't deny that. Now, my statements are based strictly on judging what I saw in X3: it appears that the new Jean has a dominant personality type...one that is geared towards rebellion, defiance and revenge. Her ideals, loyalties, etc. were all but gone.

Would you agree that we really didn't see much of the Jean we knew in X1 or X2?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

& I am discussing what could have been had it not been for Studio Politics You have to admit that had the Studio not been complete *******s things would have turned out differently

Like I said...we're not discussing studio politics in this debate...we have countless other threads devoted to that. So let's stay on topic and investigate the storylines as we have them today.

Thanks.

 

[D-scythe]

Agreed. There is no "textbook" personality profile for schizophrenics. Some, however do have a more dominant personality--we can't deny that. Now, my statements are based strictly on judging what I saw in X3: it appears that the new Jean has a dominant personality type...one that is geared towards rebellion, defiance and revenge. Her ideals, loyalties, etc. were all but gone.

Would you agree that we really didn't see much of the Jean we knew in X1 or X2?

First, yes on the Storm thing. Second, I do agree we do not see much of "normal" Jean, but between this personality and her "dark" personality, the "normal" one seemed the most rational, most human, IMO. Dark Jean was more emotional, wild.

Second, IIRC, you said something about Jean's dark side being more like "young Jean" and revealing her inner most desires/etc. (If you didn't, then my bad). I don't exactly agree with that, simply because she does suffer from schizophrenia. Her "dark" personality obviously does lust for Logan, but we are shown no indication that his is in fact her deepest desire, or that this lust for him undermines her "love" (whether real or otherwise) for Scott. And because she is schizophrenic, all I'm saying that it doesn't really make sense to argue that dark Jean is just a manifestation of her deepest desires, and proof of her pseudo-love for Scott, simply because you can't make such statements about someone in such a mental state.

 

[XCharlieX]

Logan slowly making his way to jean was amazingly done. Quite horrific.

 

[undomiel]

People keep complaining about how powerful she is and how she could have killed him in an instant and all that other crap.

what you forget is the vengeful nature of the phoenix. She wasnt trying to kill him. She wanted to see exactly how far he would go, how hard he would try. She says to him "you would die for them?" She is clearly playing with him. She knows he loves her and that she can torture him with it.

Now it just so happens that Logan's response gives Jean the break she needs to take over again for a moment, thereby dropping her own defenses. She asks him to save her, and he does, she is no longer stuck powerless in her own body.

in summation: the scene was kick ass. yes phoenix could have killed him in an instant, but phoenix wanted to torture him, test him, play with him. Isnt that more fun dramatically anyways?

Awesome post! (Sorry, I haven't been around for a few days, I'm just catching up). And I agree with you -- movies are about drama and emotion. The writers and directors want to elicit the greatest emotional response from the audience, something which these guys didn't do as well as they could have in this film. But the tragic-love Jean/Logan ending was what I had been hoping for, and one of the better scenes in the film.

And I agree with you that Phoenix could have easily killed Logan if she'd wanted to, but the point is that she didn't entirely want to. Heck, she could've more easily killed him in the medical room, but instead she just threw him up against a wall. I think Jean/Phoenix finds Logan less offensive to her than Scott and Prof. X because while they always wanted to control her, Logan only wanted to set her free. He, too, despises a cage.

 

[D-scythe]

And I agree with you that Phoenix could have easily killed Logan if she'd wanted to, but the point is that she didn't entirely want to. Heck, she could've more easily killed him in the medical room, but instead she just threw him up against a wall. I think Jean/Phoenix finds Logan less offensive to her than Scott and Prof. X because while they always wanted to control her, Logan only wanted to set her free. He, too, despises a cage.

Wow, dumbest post I've heard today. Congratulations.

 

[undomiel]

Wow, dumbest post I've heard today. Congratulations.

Why so hostile?

 

[D-scythe]

Why so hostile?

Time of the month.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Logan and Jean in the final battle was the best way to kick the memory of a dead man in his nuts!

And the last three line uttered by the two of them was the best way to pi$$ on Scott's grave.

Well done!

BTW, why wasn't the adamantium demolercurized along with the flesh?

 

[GhostPoet]

I thought the final scene was pretty dang intense. Jean in general looked freaky in her full form. But that final scene was just really emotional impacting. I mean, the theater was dead quiet when that went on.

I assume Logan's adamantium didn't demolecularize because it's so much stronger than bone, flesh and normal steel...she would have had to use much more power...and I think she was also hesitating when he starting moving towards her and not running away...her power wasn't fully centered on him.

I think inside she was fighting it...she wanted to die...but it was a conflict inside her...she had just enough strength to keep the Phoenix from destroying Logan.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Logan and Jean in the final battle was the best way to kick the memory of a dead man in his nuts!

And the last three line uttered by the two of them was the best way to pi$$ on Scott's grave.

Well done!

BTW, why wasn't the adamantium demolercurized along with the flesh?

If she wanted him dead, he would have been nothing but a smear on the cobblestones.

The reason he was not killed is because, much like a cat with a mouse, she was toying with him. She destroyed everything around him, yet he was untouched until he took a step forward. She was messing with him, just to see what he'd do, taking psychic swats at him with each step he took. She knew that he knew she could destroy him with just a thought.

 

[Goddessreicho]

*le sigh* I think its another inconsistancy. But, thats just me. Unless...*gasp* Jean's not all powerfull and can't break down adamantium. Hmm I wonder how she would fair against vibranium.

See there, Logan didn't have to stab her. He could have just beat her with a adamantium stick laced with vibranium. Tadaaaa problem solved!


Wow, that was kinda mean. :P

 

[Goddessreicho]

If she wanted him dead, he would have been nothing but a smear on the cobblestones.

The reason he was not killed is because, much like a cat with a mouse, she was toying with him. She destroyed everything around him, yet he was untouched until he took a step forward. She was messing with him, just to see what he'd do, taking psychic swats at him with each step he took. She knew that he knew she could destroy him with just a thought.

I was just talking about Scott in the first two comments...sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[Destiny Is Near]

one of the best scenes in xmen history

 

[Jan Irisi]

I was just talking about Scott in the first two comments...sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I wasn't addressing the Scott issue. I was addressing the question about the adamantium. If she wanted to destroy Wolverine, she could have, adamantium and all.

 

[weatherwitch]

If she wanted him dead, he would have been nothing but a smear on the cobblestones.

The reason he was not killed is because, much like a cat with a mouse, she was toying with him. She destroyed everything around him, yet he was untouched until he took a step forward. She was messing with him, just to see what he'd do, taking psychic swats at him with each step he took. She knew that he knew she could destroy him with just a thought.

Uhm, no. "I'm the only one that can stop her." He seems pretty confident that his healing ability is gonna save his ass. I liked the movie overall, but I found the ending lame. "Save me..." *gag* No. She should have imploded. Or something. It would have held more meaning if Jean had fought her way back on her own as opposed to Logan playing "white knight" and rescuing her from herself. But we got what we got.

 

[GhostPoet]

Uhm, no. "I'm the only one that can stop her." He seems pretty confident that his healing ability is gonna save his ass. I liked the movie overall, but I found the ending lame. "Save me..." *gag* No. She should have imploded. Or something. It would have held more meaning if Jean had fought her way back on her own as opposed to Logan playing "white knight" and rescuing her from herself. But we got what we got.

I'm pretty certain he wasn't counting on just his healing factor to save him. He had more of a connection to Jean than any of the current living X-Men...he was the only one who could stop her because of his healing factor AND because he had something with her. That's what made her hesitate from completely destroying him.

 

[Jan Irisi]

I'm pretty certain he wasn't counting on just his healing factor to save him. He had more of a connection to Jean than any of the current living X-Men...he was the only one who could stop her because of his healing factor AND because he had something with her. That's what made her hesitate from completely destroying him.

I was just going to say that. He felt that somehow he could reach "Jean". She didn't kill him in the lab, she didn't kill him in the forest, he could see that there was something in her that he could try to reach.

 

[undomiel]

Time of the month.

Okay, understood. But what did you mean by "dumb"?

 

[bruja_escarlata]

I saw the movie again yesterday and decided to pay more attention on the scene after reading this threat, and I have to admit that i liked it more....it was a pity it was not Scott but still quite intense....funny thing is that most of the people in the cinema didn´t wait for the credits to end...jejeje

 

[weatherwitch]

I'm pretty certain he wasn't counting on just his healing factor to save him. He had more of a connection to Jean than any of the current living X-Men...he was the only one who could stop her because of his healing factor AND because he had something with her. That's what made her hesitate from completely destroying him.

No. Wolverine did not. Among the living it should have been Storm--or hell, Beast, but again, we get what we get.

And seeing as how she vaporized the love of her life and her mentor, I'd wager that Wolverine mattered a wee bit less than they did.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Hi WeatherWitch! Haven't seen your posts in awhile. Hope your giving people a run for their money...

Let me make myself really clear here. Like plastic wrap clear. Logan and Jean each took out one of Cyclops's nuts in that last battle. Logan didn't mention Scott at all to her. Instead it was all about him and his feelings. And good ole Jean just forgot all about Cyke. It would have been nice to hear her final words be, "Scott!" Or, "I'm sorry, Scott" Something like that right before she died, then the look on Logan's face would have been PRICELESS!

The general public won't know nor will they care about the boundless love that Jean and Scott had for each other, after the last battle. And that blows!

 

[Jan Irisi]

No. Wolverine did not. Among the living it should have been Storm--or hell, Beast, but again, we get what we get.

And seeing as how she vaporized the love of her life and her mentor, I'd wager that Wolverine mattered a wee bit less than they did.

The "Jean" in question here was not the "Jean" who was the love of Scott's life. This particular "Jean" did in fact have some connection with Wolverine. This "Jean" was the one who practically raped the man earlier in the film. The other "Jean", the love of Scott's life would never, ever attempt or think of doing something like that.

 

[undomiel]

I was just going to say that. He felt that somehow he could reach "Jean". She didn't kill him in the lab, she didn't kill him in the forest, he could see that there was something in her that he could try to reach.

I agree with you two. She wasn't fully bent on killing him, and yes, Logan has a "connection" with her which is part of the reason why she won't kill him.

 

[Bullsear]

Lame.