Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[Angry Sentinel]

Hi AS, I miss your jokes man. How've you been?

Wonderful... except no-one's laughing around here anymore. Mostly I just annoy everyone now... oh well!

How about you... anything good?

Sorry, it was for Endeavor. All I was discussing was the scene itself. Not studio politics, not anything else. It was the scene itself.

It's cool, I don't deny that I have the same 'political' outlook as Endeavor, so I wasn't sure if you picked up on that and was talking to me. But I am willing to put it aside to join in this convo, and I have been speculating about some other motivations for our favorite split persona tk weilding mutant.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Sure, and as a scene within that film, given the context of the movie (much less all 3) it made no frikkin' sense. It was visually stunning, made reshippers gasp in delight and promoted Logan to ranking "hero" but was nothing but drivel in terms of usefulness and plot. Period.

If ya'all say so. For I is obvee-usly stoopid.............

 

[Sun_Down]

Sure, and as a scene within that film, given the context of the movie (much less all 3) it made no frikkin' sense. It was visually stunning, made reshippers gasp in delight and promoted Logan to ranking "hero" but was nothing but drivel in terms of usefulness and plot. Period.

How can you say it was useless to the plot? It was the damned climax of the movie, regardless of how much Cyclops fanboys hated it. So, no, there is no "period" about it.

 

[weatherwitch]

How can you say it was useless to the plot? It was the damned climax of the movie, regardless of how much Cyclops fanboys hated it. So, no, there is no "period" about it.

First off, not a Cyclops fanboy. Wolverine is my second favorite X-Man, and seeing him have moments of glory make me happy. That moment was contrived. It was useless to the plot. The entire Phoenix thing was that Jean had two personalities clashing within her mind. It would have been more reminiscent of the books, and hell, a better angle, to have her overcome the darkside of herself. That's my opinion. I didn't ask you to agree with it. I stated it. And as climaxes go, it was far too predictible.

 

[Endeavor]

... That moment was contrived. It was useless to the plot. The entire Phoenix thing was that Jean had two personalities clashing within her mind. It would have been more reminiscent of the books, and hell, a better angle, to have her overcome the darkside of herself. That's my opinion. I didn't ask you to agree with it. I stated it. And as climaxes go, it was far too predictible.

Excellent point. The redemption element was taken out of the Phoenix storyline, which is a crime in and of itself. But looking at it as a stand-alone story, without any fan sentimentality or pre-conceived notions, that scene is far inferior than what should have been done had storytelling been the most important factor in decision making.

 

[Endeavor]

Wonderful... except no-one's laughing around here anymore. Mostly I just annoy everyone now... oh well!

How about you... anything good?

Not much to laugh at recently, that's why we need ya, to lighten things up

 

[The Batman]

First off, not a Cyclops fanboy. Wolverine is my second favorite X-Man, and seeing him have moments of glory make me happy. That moment was contrived. It was useless to the plot. The entire Phoenix thing was that Jean had two personalities clashing within her mind. It would have been more reminiscent of the books, and hell, a better angle, to have her overcome the darkside of herself. That's my opinion. I didn't ask you to agree with it. I stated it. And as climaxes go, it was far too predictible.

There you go. And it wasnt from a Cyclops fanboy either.

 

[LoGaN's RuNNer]

Hated the scene. Should have Cyclops.

It wouldn't have worked with Cyclops! I doubt he would be able to, unless he stood really far back so her powers didn't effect him, and they yelled comments back and forth then he zapped her, I'm sure that would have worked on screen.

 

[Endeavor]

It wouldn't have worked with Cyclops! I doubt he would be able to, unless he stood really far back so her powers didn't effect him, and they yelled comments back and forth then he zapped her, I'm sure that would have worked on screen.

If you're saying it would only work with Wolverine because he's the only one that can survive Phoenix's power for that long, I think you should reconsider that train of thought... The only logical explanation for Logan being able to get close to Phoenix is that she let him (although admitedly they don't show that in the film). So with that in mind one must conclude that the scene could have been done with anybody who had a significant enough bond to Jean as for her to have 'interfered' in their behalf. It could have been Cyclops, Xavier, Storm or even Beast.

 

[The Batman]

Awesome post! (Sorry, I haven't been around for a few days, I'm just catching up). And I agree with you -- movies are about drama and emotion. The writers and directors want to elicit the greatest emotional response from the audience, something which these guys didn't do as well as they could have in this film. But the tragic-love Jean/Logan ending was what I had been hoping for, and one of the better scenes in the film.

And I agree with you that Phoenix could have easily killed Logan if she'd wanted to, but the point is that she didn't entirely want to. Heck, she could've more easily killed him in the medical room, but instead she just threw him up against a wall. I think Jean/Phoenix finds Logan less offensive to her than Scott and Prof. X because while they always wanted to control her, Logan only wanted to set her free. He, too, despises a cage.

When did Scott want to control Jean? Please, tell me, i wanna know. I know you're heavily biased towards logan and jean, but now you're making up statements.

And everyone forgets that Logan loved the jean thats supposedly being controlled by charles and scott. He wanted to save Jean....not phoenix. He basically wanted Jean back in the cage too, or is everyone so in love with logan that they cant realize that?

 

[Jan Irisi]

When did Scott want to control Jean? Please, tell me, i wanna know. I know you're heavily biased towards logan and jean, but now you're making up statements.

And everyone forgets that Logan loved the jean thats supposedly being controlled by charles and scott. He wanted to save Jean....not phoenix.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that Logan wanted to save "Phoenix".

 

[Endeavor]

I haven't seen anyone suggest that Logan wanted to save "Phoenix".

That's what he's saying. Logan wanted to save the Jean persona, which would put him in the same hypothetical situation as Cyclops and Xavier, according to that other poster's statement. He wants the 'caged' Jean.

 

[The Batman]

Undomiel said that phoenix liked logan because he wanted to set her free...her definition of free being the phoenix, destroyer of worlds, when logan simply wanted the old, controlled jean back too.

And i'd like to hear how Scott wanted to control jean, especially since we havent gone into their relationship at all in these films. scott probably dosent even know what charles did to her

 

[Cyma]

I thought the scene was awesome. Even though I had my doubts with Scott dying and all, but it all played out nicely! The best parts had to be Wolvie getting torn apart and healing as he tries to reach her and the relieved smile on Jean’s face after poor Wolvie stabs her…..wow…..

Now to imagine what would’ve happened if Scott was in in Wolverine’s place

 

[The Batman]

I mean, the scene is cool for what it was, up until jean and logan started talking, but it shouldve been scott.

 

[undomiel]

I think she loved them both.

Bullseye! And that's what makes the drama of it all the more interesting. I have to reject the idea that Jean only has any feelings at all for Scott, and Logan is just madly in love with a woman who doesn't and never did care the tiniest little scrap for him.

 

[The Batman]

of course she loved them both...she just loved scott more....

 

[Jan Irisi]

Undomiel said that phoenix liked logan because he wanted to set her free...her definition of free being the phoenix, destroyer of worlds, when logan simply wanted the old, controlled jean back too.

And i'd like to hear how Scott wanted to control jean, especially since we havent gone into their relationship at all in these films. scott probably dosent even know what charles did to her

He wanted the old controlled Jean back, which is why he killed her? Setting her (the "real" Jean) free did not necessarily mean getting her back to where she was before. That is why Storm asked him (paraphrase) "Are you ready to do what you have to do?" She knew it was going to be necessary to kill Jean/Phoenix, but she wondered if he could do it.

We have no idea what Scott did or didn't know. It's possible he didn't know anything, but it is also possible he did know everything. We were never told one way or another.

In regard to Wolverine/Phoenix, I believe what that personality is attracted to, for lack of another word, is Wolverine's "wild side". His anger, his rage, his instability. In a way, he is not that different from her. When he pulls away from her, she responds to him "Look at you...he's tamed you" Which is true. He had been "tamed". She was looking for an animalistic Logan, ready to do what she obviously wanted to do when she woke up. But he pulled away, realizing it was wrong, something was wrong with the situation.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Edit...First off, not a Cyclops fanboy. Wolverine is my second favorite X-Man, and seeing him have moments of glory make me happy. That moment was contrived. It was useless to the plot. The entire Phoenix thing was that Jean had two personalities clashing within her mind. It would have been more reminiscent of the books, and hell, a better angle, to have her overcome the darkside of herself. That's my opinion. I didn't ask you to agree with it. I stated it. And as climaxes go, it was far too predictible.

Oh boy, Oh Boy, this is where I wanted to get to. Let us let their own script do the talking against ...errr for them...


Prof X to a young Jean Grey: The question isn't of having great power, but whether you control it, or allow it to control you.

Prof X to an out of control Jean Grey right before poofiness: Don't let it control you!


talk about bad foreshadowing...nowhere in those scenes do I see them setting up the idea that Jean would need Wolverine to 'save' her??

Now, ask yourself why would a writer do that? Even a hack wouldn't make such a mistake. I think there is an alternate script ending out there that was made into poofiness by some MIF's.


MIF = Men In Fox... yes I know it's lame

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Edit...
In regard to Wolverine/Phoenix, I believe what that personality is attracted to, for lack of another word, is Wolverine's "wild side". His anger, his rage, his instability. In a way, he is not that different from her. When he pulls away from her, she responds to him "Look at you...he's tamed you" Which is true. He had been "tamed". She was looking for an animalistic Logan, ready to do what she obviously wanted to do when she woke up. But he pulled away, realizing it was wrong, something was wrong with the situation.

Ok, you're ideas were going good until you got to this scene...

So if Logan had been tamed... then he would want the tame Jean, right. And if he wanted the tamed Jean, then it is likely that he had reversed his position and begun to agree with the professor and felt it might be better if Jean were back to what she was before...right?

Don't believe me, let's check the script again....

Wolverine in med lab to a 'faltering' Jean: Look at me, concentrate, the professor can 'FIX' this.

 

[Endeavor]

And AS hits another one out of the park...
This scene made no sense even when looking at the story in and of itself, as I stated before.


Here's another aspect to consider:
Check out http://www.waltonian.com/media/stor...te200605311731&sourcedomain=www.waltonian.com and http://www.dailynexus.com/news/2005/9540.html . These are real-life examples of normal people surviving multiple stab wounds. Let's think about this for a moment and bring it into the movie universe.
Here we have a superpowerfull mutant who has proven to be able to not only do the unimaginable with her powers, but more specifically, survive millions of gallons of rushing water thrashing her about a rocky countryside. We are supposed to accept that this goddess as Magneto calls her, can be instantly killed by something as insignifant (when compared to the flood she survived in X2) as 3 knives in her gut? Something that not only have other, less powerfull mutants been shown to survive (Mystique?!) but that a normal human is also capable of surviving? Talk about a gaping illogical loophole!

 

[Jan Irisi]

Ok, you're ideas were going good until you got to this scene...

So if Logan had been tamed... then he would want the tame Jean, right. And if he wanted the tamed Jean, then it is likely that he had reversed his position and begun to agree with the professor and felt it might be better if Jean were back to what she was before...right?

Don't believe me, let's check the script again....

Wolverine in med lab to a 'faltering' Jean: Look at me, concentrate, the professor can 'FIX' this.

At that point I think he was desperate to help her in any way he could. Yes, that "tamed" Jean was the persona he loved, and he wanted nothing more than to have "her" back. I believe over time he came to realize that maybe that wasn't what was best for her. When he was calling to Jean he was working from his gut. Yes he wanted her back. It was only after he was able to think about what she had said to him, to think about how out of control she was, how many people had been killed by her, how she begged him in the infirmary to kill her, and after what Storm said to him before the final conflict (when she asked him if he was ready to do what he needed to do, or something to that affect), it was then he saw that the only solution was that he would ultimately have to kill her to save her.

 

[FaT_tONle]

That's why she threw away Logan once he tried to "control her"... I don't think what Logan was trying to do was much different that Proff X and Cyclops... I think Jean probably tried to hold back on all three deaths... they should've extended that Cyke scene but that would've downgraded the Xavier scene... we assume that they shared at least a moment before BAM... finally Jean was able to hold back the Pheonix on Logan... that to me is redemption...

 

[lordofthenerds]

I liked it. It would've been better if Cyke got added in the mix though.

 

[weatherwitch]

The entire endscene goes against what was set up throughout the movie--including Logan himself. "If your with us, be with us."
"...I'm not going to let that happen. We stand together, X-Men, all of us..."

"You'd die for them?"
"No...." WTF?!? No??? Did he just say no?

Yes, contrived and useless to plot.