Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Detective Conan]

Reed and Sue could definitely both be White, and have a 'Black' descendant down the line. Even if it's only 100 years later, or even 50.

The majority of us here will likely have descendants who don't look like the same race as us.

That’s assuming they even stick with the idea of Kang being a descendant of Reed and Sue. Also, on the flip side, if a white actor was cast in the role of Kang(like Channing Tatum or Dan Stevens) that still doesn’t mean black people or any person of color couldn’t conceivably be his ancestor either considering there are White Americans who do have Native American, and even black ancestry.

So casting a white actor in the role is no more conclusive evidence of MCU Reed and Sue being white than casting a black person is conclusive evidence of them being black. Reed and Sue can still be black or a POC and still have a white descendant, and vice versa.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Probably realising they look identical. If the film were based on a John Byrne storyline then everyone would definitely look identical.

If thats the case then I'm not sure how that scene is supposed supposed to play out unless you have two actresses who look that much alike. Works when you can draw faces.

 

[Dark Raven]

If thats the case then I'm not sure how that scene is supposed supposed to play out unless you have two actresses who look that much alike. Works when you can draw faces.

They can get the same actor for Wolverine, Reed Richards, Professor X, Johnny Storm, Wyatt Wingfoot, Franklin Richards and anyone else. The Byrne aesthetic will be a great cost saving scheme.

 

[Zarex]

Whats the context though?

This is from Hickman's run. Sue was chosen by the Tribes of Old Atlantis to act as their envoy in negotiations with Namor. He insisted she meet up with him on Utopia before traveling with his royal caravan to the summit.

The icy greeting no doubt came from Namor's long time infatuation with Sue and his on and off "Friends with Benefits" relationship with Emma.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

This makes sense I suppose.

 

[MCU King]

I'm not really sold on Reed with daddy issues.

Yep. I think it is bizarre to think every single descendant of yours will be the same 'race'. A thousand years from now you could easily have descendants from multiple races. Our whole concept on things like racial identity will no doubt be very different in a thousand years. Just look how much societies views have change on things like gender, race and sexuality in the last 100 years.

I mean I understand the reasoning why people think this way. It's because historically our societies were very much closed off before globalization, immigration, air travel and whatnot.

But now, it's true what we consider 'race' presently will likely change drastically in the centuries to come.

If Krasinski and Blunt had a child that married an African-American. And their child also married an African-American... they could easily have an offspring that looks like John Majors (who himself definitely has White ancestors if he did a DNA test).

We don't see this kind of lineage explored in films often, so it would be interesting if the MCU did it.

 

[Detective Conan]

We don't see this kind of lineage explored in films often, so it would be interesting if the MCU did it.

Yeah...
Here’s the deal: I think the idea of lily white heroes having an evil black descendant from the future might be viewed in a negative light by some. It’s not to say the idea isn’t doable, but I think it might be a bit jarring for some in the audience who don’t immediately catch on to the idea that Kang is a ‘distant relative from a possible future’ idea, if you know what I mean. Which is why I suspect Marvel will be tempted to streamline things, and will likely omit this element from his backstory entirely. Kang can absolutely be black Reed while Sue can still be white in the MCU, but there’s nothing that says Marvel has to have him related to the Richards.

 

[MCU King]

Actually, the MCU has done something like this before. And it worked out well.

The Michael Keaton reveal in Spider-Man Homecoming as Liz' dad. Audiences didn't see it coming because they assumed her father would be Black.

 

[Detective Conan]

Actually, the MCU has done something like this before. And it worked out well.

The Michael Keaton reveal in Spider-Man Homecoming as Liz' dad. Audiences didn't see it coming because they assumed her father would be Black.

That’s a good point, though in that case the bad guy was a white dude. I’m still not sure having an evil black guy descendant to good lily white heroes will play over so well. I think going in that direction might have some racial implications by having him related to good lily white superheroes that you wouldn’t have if he was just descended from black people. That being said, this discussion feels kind of moot as we have no guarantee Marvel will keep him a Richards. So I’ll simply digress and move on.

 

[Marvel united]

That’s a good point, though in that case the bad guy was a white dude. I’m still not sure having an evil black guy descendant to good lily white heroes will play over so well. I think going in that direction might have some racial implications by having him related to good lily white superheroes that you wouldn’t have if he was just descended from black people. That being said, this discussion feels kind of moot as we have no guarantee Marvel will keep him a Richards. So I’ll simply digress and move on.

Imho I think it's all about execution. It could be read wrong if it's done poorly but I think there is a way to do it and not insinuate something like so.

The idea of Kang being the first Richards in the MCU is pretty exciting to me and I'm kinda hoping they retain their connection. Reed finding this out at some point could be a huge moment. Kang is a genius and brilliance runs in the Richards bloodline

 

[MCU King]

Is Kang necessarily a bad guy though? I suspect he'll be another 'Loki'-esque figure who often switches from villain to ally.

 

[DawnWarrior]

Kang certainly has the reach to be a Loki-esque figure. I was expecting/hoping Doctor Doom to be that in Phase Five. Maybe there's room for both? Plenty of movies to go around nowadays. And Doom and Kang have clashed a few times, such as in the old 'Infinity War.'

 

[Silvermoth]

Looks great to me

 

[chamber-music]

Yeah...
Here’s the deal: I think the idea of lily white heroes having an evil black descendant from the future might be viewed in a negative light by some. It’s not to say the idea isn’t doable, but I think it might be a bit jarring for some in the audience who don’t immediately catch on to the idea that Kang is a ‘distant relative from a possible future’ idea, if you know what I mean. Which is why I suspect Marvel will be tempted to streamline things, and will likely omit this element from his backstory entirely. Kang can absolutely be black Reed while Sue can still be white in the MCU, but there’s nothing that says Marvel has to have him related to the Richards.

I'm black and I think people would be overly sensitive and projecting if they felt Kang was racist. Kang isn't killmonger, I doubt race will have anything to do with his motivations.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

I mean, it also depends what route they go for in his appearance, makeup/prosthetic/ fully CGI... will he even be identifiable/ or be seen as black character? if he's just some blue faced seemingly alien/god like character? will we even see him in his human forum? we don't know yet

not that I am saying his race should be hidden. but as some have pointed out the character is from a far distant future where race may not even be seen as simple as black and white, where an entirely new classification of "race" and what it means would be completely different from ours. so to call him a black character could be misleading

would you classify, Korath the Pursuer or Heimdall as black characters because they were played by black actors?

obviously if they go with a connection to Reed, then he would be humanized to some degree, and we might see his heritage or timeline, of what he once was before becoming the god like figure he is now...

but, yes, from a story telling POV/ to have the general audiences be able to make the connect/ identify with these characters having them share a similar appearance would be the easiest way of doing it, so I wouldn't rule it out just yet (tho it does seem like kinda lazy writing)

 

[Zarex]

I mean, it also depends what route they go for in his appearance, makeup/prosthetic/ fully CGI... will he even be identifiable/ or be seen as black character? if he's just some blue faced seemingly alien/god like character? will we even see him in his human forum? we don't know yet

not that I am saying his race should be hidden. but as some have pointed out the character is from a far distant future where race may not even be seen as simple as black and white, where an entirely new classification of "race" and what it means would be completely different from ours. so to call him a black character could be misleading

would you classify, Korath the Pursuer or Heimdall as black characters because they were played by black actors?

obviously if they go with a connection to Reed, then he would be humanized to some degree, and we might see his heritage or timeline, of what he once was before becoming the god like figure he is now...

but, yes, from a story telling POV/ to have the general audiences be able to make the connect/ identify with these characters having them share a similar appearance would be the easiest way of doing it, so I wouldn't rule it out just yet (tho it does seem like kinda lazy writing)

We don't usually see his face a whole lot in the comics, but Kang is just a guy with a cool blue face plate. I doubt Feige and company will do anything "future-y" with Mr. Major's actual face.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

I just want an official announcement.

We deserve that...

 

[Detective Conan]

I just want an official announcement.

We deserve that...

An official announcement from Marvel about the FF won’t happen for a while. Certainly not before Phase 4 starts, but we may hear news from trade outlets about Marvel hiring writers or even them hiring a director but we need to get through the Phase Four slate first(which includes the Disney Plus shows). Everything is in flux right now.

We won’t get a FF film until either 2024 or 2025 at this rate.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

An official announcement from Marvel about the FF won’t happen for a while. Certainly not before Phase 4 starts, but we may hear news from trade outlets about Marvel hiring writers or even them hiring a director but we need to get through the Phase Four slate first(which includes the Disney Plus shows). Everything is in flux right now.

We won’t get a FF film until either 2024 or 2025 at this rate.

So far away

 

[MCU King]

That's a good timeframe honestly.

Launching F4 and maybe X-men from 2025 onwards will basically extend the MCU's industry dominance for another decade after that.

There will be no need to reboot Iron Man and others.

 

[metaphysician]

I'm not really sold on Reed with daddy issues.

Yep. I think it is bizarre to think every single descendant of yours will be the same 'race'. A thousand years from now you could easily have descendants from multiple races. Our whole concept on things like racial identity will no doubt be very different in a thousand years. Just look how much societies views have change on things like gender, race and sexuality in the last 100 years.

Hell, "race" as a concept didn't even *exist* until about 500 years ago. Prior to that, societal lines were set along ethnic or religious lines, if not on purely localized "clan" affiliation. The concept of race as a broad identifying factor, separate from specific national or religious affiliation, wasn't really a thing until after the start of the transatlantic slave trade.

 

[metaphysician]

Yeah...
Here’s the deal: I think the idea of lily white heroes having an evil black descendant from the future might be viewed in a negative light by some. It’s not to say the idea isn’t doable, but I think it might be a bit jarring for some in the audience who don’t immediately catch on to the idea that Kang is a ‘distant relative from a possible future’ idea, if you know what I mean. Which is why I suspect Marvel will be tempted to streamline things, and will likely omit this element from his backstory entirely. Kang can absolutely be black Reed while Sue can still be white in the MCU, but there’s nothing that says Marvel has to have him related to the Richards.

All valid issues. However, there is also the flipside: if Kang is a meaty, substantial villainous role, would denying it to a black actor because of theoretical racist connotations be an actual improvement on things? Consider the whole "Carl Anderson as Judas" deal. Yes, they cast the main "villain" as a black guy. . . and the role was the role of a lifetime, and *the* performance praised and remembered to this day for the whole opera.

So, its kind of a tough walk to balance. You don't want to play into obvious negative racial cliches, but you also probably want to normalize racially-diverse casting. The win condition is when a villain being played by a black guy, simply means the villain is being played by a black guy.

 

[metaphysician]

Is Kang necessarily a bad guy though? I suspect he'll be another 'Loki'-esque figure who often switches from villain to ally.

Ehhh. . . could he theoretically be remade into an ambiguous figure? Sure. But as he exists in the comics, I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. He's not a mustache twirling puppy kicking villain, but he usually is fundamentally selfish and ruthless in his ambition, in a way that, oh, Dr Doom isn't. If I had to analogize him to anyone, he's a somewhat nicer and less casually murderous Hela. Just like Hela, he fundamentally wants to rule all because its suits his ego; he's just more pragmatic and less murdertastic about it.

 

[Marvel united]

We don't usually see his face a whole lot in the comics, but Kang is just a guy with a cool blue face plate. I doubt Feige and company will do anything "future-y" with Mr. Major's actual face.

Wait, you mean they're gonna paint Jonathan's face blue and call it a day? Nah bruh It's a mask, not skin. I expect Marvel to add some sort of technological spin to it i.e






It's like Terry Mcginnis' mask from Batman Beyond

 

[Zarex]

Wait, you mean they're gonna paint Jonathan's face blue and call it a day? Nah bruh It's a mask, not skin.

I know, bruh. I said he had a blue face plate, not a blue face.