Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Joe Rockhead]

Yeah, the key to me is diversity. The FF has always been interesting because they are a group of four very different people. Sue shouldn't be a 1960's house wife, but there's no need to force a mission role on her, particularly now that, in 2018 the idea of civilians going into space is very real.

A good writer can show her value to the team after the accident in an infinite number of ways. It doesn't need to be forced into the origin and she and Johnny don't need to be "mission critical". They weren't in 1961 and it makes far more sense in 2018.

And one thing I like about making her not part of the original mission is it would allow the other members to discount her importance and skills ... and allow her to show them how wrong they are to take her lightly.

THAT opens up some interesting story possibilities. Making her a member of the crew is much more familiar, much easier, and much less interesting to me.

Okay... let's turn the concept on it's ear. How about Sue is Reed's TV reporter girlfriend and Johnny her camera man?
Then he could invite them to observe and report on whatever experiment and they get caught up in the incident that gives them their powers.

As such -- they're not necessary elements of the space or dimensional trip or whatever, but they do serve a purpose after the incident in turning the 4 of them into celebrities. The media aspects touching on tv, radio, social media, etc.

Naturally, Ben turning into The Thing, he chafes at all the media hoopla - and Johnny constantly pushes the boundaries in chronicling their everyday life.

 

[2kt09]

Big Hero 6 are not the FF. Your example is poor. Further, what makes Reed and Sue different from, say, Hank & Janet if they're both scientists in the MCU? What is the source of their friction? It cannot be Reed's divided brain between Sue and science, because shouldn't she love science then as well? Shouldn't they be doing the research together? Where is the tension? The drama?

They all "speak the same language" or rather understand one another (even though their fields of expertise diverge) outside of Fred who he isn't at all as intellectually oriented as the rest of them.
I haven't watched Ant-Man & Wasp to answer that. The difference would be Reed has an unhealthy obsession.
The Hank Pym I'm most familiar with was a pacifist to a fault as in he wouldn't even want to join up with The Earth's Mightiest Heroes since he finds his work is more important...and he eventually has a mental breakdown which forces him to don other identities & "break out of his pacifism".

 

[Spider-Fan]

They all "speak the same language" or rather understand one another (even though their fields of expertise diverge) outside of Fred who he isn't at all as intellectually oriented as the rest of them.
I haven't watched Ant-Man & Wasp to answer that. The difference would be Reed has an unhealthy obsession.
The Hank Pym I'm most familiar with was a pacifist to a fault as in he wouldn't even want to join up with The Earth's Mightiest Heroes since he finds his work is more important...and he eventually has a mental breakdown which forces him to don other identities & "break out of his pacifism".

Watch Ant-Man and Wasp. Janet is a scientist in that movie. I have seen Big Hero 6. But you analysis still doesn't address my question: where is the drama in the FF? Big Hero 6 is not the FF. The FF won't be students at a smart school. So again, related to the property we're actually talking about...where is the drama?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Okay... let's turn the concept on it's ear. How about Sue is Reed's TV reporter girlfriend and Johnny her camera man?
Then he could invite them to observe and report on whatever experiment and they get caught up in the incident that gives them their powers.

As such -- they're not necessary elements of the space or dimensional trip or whatever, but they do serve a purpose after the incident in turning the 4 of them into celebrities. The media aspects touching on tv, radio, social media, etc.

Naturally, Ben turning into The Thing, he chafes at all the media hoopla - and Johnny constantly pushes the boundaries in chronicling their everyday life.

I kind of like that idea. I like the idea of them having different backgrounds and maybe having some tension because of those different backgrounds.

The thing I really want to avoid is:

Here's brilliant scientist, Reed Richards.

And his equally brilliant partner, Sue Storm.

And her brother, accomplished engineer, Johnny Storm.

And brave, outstanding test pilot, Ben Grimm.

They should have some flaws. They should have some differences. I don't want a picture-perfect team of accomplished individuals. I want them to be a bit of a hodge-podge and unlikely team like they were in FF #1.

 

[Crimz]

Watch Ant-Man and Wasp. Janet is a scientist in that movie. I have seen Big Hero 6. But you analysis still doesn't address my question: where is the drama in the FF? Big Hero 6 is not the FF. The FF won't be students at a smart school. So again, related to the property we're actually talking about...where is the drama?

It's not directed at me but here's how we can keep the dynamic with Sue being a doctor.

Sue knows and has long hours at work and Reed's passion is initially what attracted her to him. But she never brings her work home and it's never for as long as Reed locks himself away for. As soon as Sue gets home from a long shift all she wants to do is spend time with her husband, but he's too busy with an experiment. She understands that his work is important, but so is their relationship.

As you can see her frustration is the same as the comics and her career doesn't take away from that, it adds to it. Her being a doctor with long shifts adds to her wanting Reed to spend some time with her as they have such little time. Plus the difference is that he can take a break whenever he wants, but chooses not to, which adds to her frustration.

It also makes Sue less naggy and whiney as her complaints are a bit more understandable compared to unemployed Sue.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It's not directed at me but here's how we can keep the dynamic with Sue being a doctor.

Sue knows and has long hours at work and Reed's passion is initially what attracted her to him. But she never brings her work home and it's never for as long as Reed locks himself away for. As soon as Sue gets home from a long shift all she wants to do is spend time with her husband, but he's too busy with an experiment. She understands that his work is important, but so is their relationship.

As you can see her frustration is the same as the comics and her career doesn't take away from that, it adds to it. Her being a doctor with long shifts adds to her wanting Reed to spend some time with her as they have such little time. Plus the difference is that he can take a break whenever he wants, but chooses not to, which adds to her frustration.

Not arguing with Sue as a doctor. We're in agreement on that part. She can be a doctor just fine and keep the dynamic. I was talking about them both being scientists, which we both sort of agreed on earlier not being the best choice.

 

[Crimz]

Not arguing with Sue as a doctor. We're in agreement on that part. She can be a doctor just fine and keep the dynamic. I was talking about them both being scientists, which we both sort of agreed on earlier not being the best choice.

Yeah a scientist ruins the dynamic. They'd be together 24/7 as she could help him with his experiments which eradicates the drama. She is also the one who humanizes Reed more as she is the real people person of the team. She loses something if she is a scientist and it's part of my problem with Ultimate Sue (who was also a major a-hole), that's the Sue that the Fox films unfortunately used as a template.

 

[Dark Raven]

I kind of like that idea. I like the idea of them having different backgrounds and maybe having some tension because of those different backgrounds.

The thing I really want to avoid is:

Here's brilliant scientist, Reed Richards.

And his equally brilliant partner, Sue Storm.

And her brother, accomplished engineer, Johnny Storm.

And brave, outstanding test pilot, Ben Grimm.

They should have some flaws. They should have some differences. I don't want a picture-perfect team of accomplished individuals. I want them to be a bit of a hodge-podge and unlikely team like they were in FF #1.

They should make them all brilliant scientists. Then they can all be the 4 most intelligent people in the world. When Ben says to Reed to speak in English, it's only because Reed is speaking in Cantonese or Farsi, and an outside observer wouldn't understand and might feel left out so Grimm is trying to be considerate. Otherwise they'd all have a conversation in a different language all the time.

 

[2kt09]

Watch Ant-Man and Wasp. Janet is a scientist in that movie. I have seen Big Hero 6. But you analysis still doesn't address my question: where is the drama in the FF? Big Hero 6 is not the FF. The FF won't be students at a smart school. So again, related to the property we're actually talking about...where is the drama?

I'll pass.
Interaction of differing personalities.
Wasabi is a cuddly clean-freak. Honey is the fashion-savy girly-girl. Gogo is the athletic tomboy.
Hiro is the kid trying to be grown-up. Baymax is self-explanatory.
Fred geeks out the most over fandom-related fiction.

Between Sue & Reed specifically, the drama is from Reed taking more interest in his passion than Sue.
I don't know what they in particular want to add to her character relative to the youthful, playful Johnny and the cranky Ben.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'll pass.
Interaction of differing personalities.
Wasabi is a cuddly clean-freak. Honey is the fashion-savy girly-girl. Gogo is the athletic tomboy.
Hiro is the kid trying to be grown-up. Baymax is self-explanatory.
Fred geeks out the most over fandom-related fiction.

Between Sue & Reed specifically, the drama is from Reed taking more interest in his passion than Sue.
I don't know what they in particular want to add to her character relative to the youthful, playful Johnny and the cranky Ben.

If they have the same passion, then where is the conflict? That is the point.

 

[Flint Marko]

No offense 2KT09 but I legitimately don't think I've ever seen you make a comparison that makes much sense.

 

[2kt09]

If they have the same passion, then where is the conflict? That is the point.

The interest level in that passion. The "nuance" if you will. They characteristically shouldn't have the same personalities in the first place. Their methodologies to "science" shouldn't be similar especially if their expertise is different. I thought it was rather unusual that Fant4stic made Sue such a niche specialist, but they at least understood that being a "scientist" doesn't mean you'd have the same toolkit as another "scientist"...which goes back to BH6, where you have chemists, mechanical engineers, physicians, practical vs theoretical, etc.

 

[Dark Raven]

If Reed has more passion than Sue, then it stands to reason that sometimes Sue might have more passion than Reed. They might go through phases, as people usually do in real life. So Sue might end up spending all her time alone in the lab while Reed is off with the children. And that really makes them no different from each other.

 

[2kt09]

If Reed has more passion than Sue, then it stands to reason that sometimes Sue might have more passion than Reed. They might go through phases, as people usually do in real life. So Sue might end up spending all her time alone in the lab while Reed is off with the children. And that really makes them no different from each other.

That is the Incredibles/Incredibles 2 argument where if you switch the roles, you`d get the same movie twice. So...is that what happened?

 

[CaptainWagner]

I agree it's important for them to have different backgrounds, but they all need to "belong" on the mission. I think it could be interesting like this:

Reed: Ultra-High Concept Astro-Physics
Sue: Linguistics and Social Sciences
Johnny: Mechanical Engineer
Ben: Ace Pilot

I think it's important that Sue and Reed both be intelligent, but in drastically different fields that reflect their personalities. This both positions them for conflict but also makes themselves keys to each other.

 

[Silvermoth]

Love it CaptainWagner

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

Doctor who is exactly a good example of what not to do. Many people have said the women characters on that show are at their worst when they just point at things and say “what’s that?”

I disagree. They are some of the strongest female characters; if I were to make a comics comparison, I'd say the companion is the Jane Foster to the Doctor's Thor. They do point at things and say 'What's that, Doctor?' but they also have moments where they display bravery or intelligence (just not intelligence to match the Doctor's - unless it's Romana).

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

The Doctor is the main character and his assistants are his supporting cast. It's all about him and the assistant is the audience surrogate into his world and exists to develop him more.

Actually, the companion is usually the main character and we see the Doctor through their eyes. That has been the case since the very first episode in 1963, 'An Unearthly Child', where the story largely focuses on companions Ian and Barbara following the Doctor's granddaughter Susan Foreman after her day at school to unravel the mystery of her and her grandfather.

There's no reason why you couldn't make Sue Storm the main character who becomes fascinated with Reed Richards' isolated existence and tries to work out who he is. An easy way to introduce Johnny that way too, and Ben would be Reed's only friend.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Here's the thing... Is Reed Richards' intellect greater than Tony Stark's? I think most fans would say he's supposed to be smarter. Is Reed not just a theoretical physicist, but also a master of engineering, biological sciences, computer sciences, etc.? Would most say that he's been presented as such over the years? I say he has. Okay then, if you want MCU Reed to be that... Then why does he need anybody else on "the mission"? This is key for me. He's supposed to be this fantasy genius like Tony... Tony didn't need anyone else when coming up with the Iron Man armor or taking it for it's first test flight. Granted Tony is supposed to be more brazen than Reed. Still, my observation stands. Does Reed "need", if he's an accurate analog to the comics version in live action, to have anyone else doing what he's already capable of doing, that the point of his character is all about.

AFTER the flight, the team of the Fantastic Four is very much informed by the mixture of personalities and the various aspects all of them bring to the table as super heroes both powers and characterizations. But before that... Sue and Johnny are regular folk. Not geniuses, not accomplished scientists or doctors. I think it's funny that finally getting the team into the MCU which everyone praises for "fidelity to the source" (which is frankly overstating things to be honest in my view but there's more than enough out there that DO make that claim) there now needs to be a superfluous change to Johnny and Sue that doesn't actually add anything in the overall scheme of things to the FF.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I wouldn't mind if johnny was a gifted engineer/mechanic. Same for sue being a a well trained medic. Ben can still pilot the ship.

 

[Crimz]

Actually, the companion is usually the main character and we see the Doctor through their eyes. That has been the case since the very first episode in 1963, 'An Unearthly Child', where the story largely focuses on companions Ian and Barbara following the Doctor's granddaughter Susan Foreman after her day at school to unravel the mystery of her and her grandfather.

There's no reason why you couldn't make Sue Storm the main character who becomes fascinated with Reed Richards' isolated existence and tries to work out who he is. An easy way to introduce Johnny that way too, and Ben would be Reed's only friend.

The companions aren't the main characters. The show is called Dr Who, not Rose Tyler or Amy Pond. The Dr is who often saves the day, the Dr is the one who has enemies, the Dr is the one who develops, the Dr is the one constant on the show. While companions come and go, the Dr is always there even if he has a different face.
The Fantastic Four are a team and it should not be the Reed show. Sue should not be like the doctor's companions, she should be Reed's equal.

Here's the thing... Is Reed Richards' intellect greater than Tony Stark's? I think most fans would say he's supposed to be smarter. Is Reed not just a theoretical physicist, but also a master of engineering, biological sciences, computer sciences, etc.? Would most say that he's been presented as such over the years? I say he has. Okay then, if you want MCU Reed to be that... Then why does he need anybody else on "the mission"? This is key for me. He's supposed to be this fantasy genius like Tony... Tony didn't need anyone else when coming up with the Iron Man armor or taking it for it's first test flight. Granted Tony is supposed to be more brazen than Reed. Still, my observation stands. Does Reed "need", if he's an accurate analog to the comics version in live action, to have anyone else doing what he's already capable of doing, that the point of his character is all about.

AFTER the flight, the team of the Fantastic Four is very much informed by the mixture of personalities and the various aspects all of them bring to the table as super heroes both powers and characterizations. But before that... Sue and Johnny are regular folk. Not geniuses, not accomplished scientists or doctors. I think it's funny that finally getting the team into the MCU which everyone praises for "fidelity to the source" (which is frankly overstating things to be honest in my view but there's more than enough out there that DO make that claim) there now needs to be a superfluous change to Johnny and Sue that doesn't actually add anything in the overall scheme of things to the FF.

Being the smartest man doesn't mean being great at everything. Reed has his field of expertise and it shouldn't be in everything to be the smartest man. Stephen Hawking was mainly a theoretical physicist, like Reed, and that didn't stop him from being considered one of the smartest men in the world.
Reed being great at everything is the weakness of the comics that should not be on film. It makes the others look like lackeys and the films should not repeat it. It's a product of the 60s having Reed be the only person that really does anything scientific on a team is all about scientific adventure. You can also look at the villains, most them focus on Reed instead of the team as a whole and that just shows the disparity between him and the others.

The team should be treated as complete equals and that means that Sue and Johnny should have roles on the expedition that gave them their powers. Roles that will carry over to when they officially become the Fantastic Four. For me that should be Johnny as the engineer and Sue as the teams doctor.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Here's the thing... Is Reed Richards' intellect greater than Tony Stark's? I think most fans would say he's supposed to be smarter. Is Reed not just a theoretical physicist, but also a master of engineering, biological sciences, computer sciences, etc.? Would most say that he's been presented as such over the years? I say he has. Okay then, if you want MCU Reed to be that... Then why does he need anybody else on "the mission"? This is key for me. He's supposed to be this fantasy genius like Tony... Tony didn't need anyone else when coming up with the Iron Man armor or taking it for it's first test flight. Granted Tony is supposed to be more brazen than Reed. Still, my observation stands. Does Reed "need", if he's an accurate analog to the comics version in live action, to have anyone else doing what he's already capable of doing, that the point of his character is all about.

AFTER the flight, the team of the Fantastic Four is very much informed by the mixture of personalities and the various aspects all of them bring to the table as super heroes both powers and characterizations. But before that... Sue and Johnny are regular folk. Not geniuses, not accomplished scientists or doctors. I think it's funny that finally getting the team into the MCU which everyone praises for "fidelity to the source" (which is frankly overstating things to be honest in my view but there's more than enough out there that DO make that claim) there now needs to be a superfluous change to Johnny and Sue that doesn't actually add anything in the overall scheme of things to the FF.

I can pretty much assure everyone here that we've all put FAR more thought into the origin than Stan and Jack did. All they needed was a modern, high-tech, science-fictiony way to give their mis-matched group of characters superpowers.

And that's all an FF film needs, and it can be done in an infinite number of plausible ways.

But the key is to keep the nature of the team. We should have a group of characters that shares key characteristics of the group we know.

IMO, the most important thing is the characters, and the mission should be written/updated in a way to make sense with the characters, not vice-versa.

 

[Dark Raven]

If they make Sue and Johnny mother and son, then they can be like Dr Beverley Crusher and Wesley Crusher, her genius son in Star Trek: TNG

Reed can be a cross between Captain Picard and Data, and Ben can be a cross between Riker and Worf.

 

[2kt09]

I can pretty much assure everyone here that we've all put FAR more thought into the origin than Stan and Jack did.

This was months after the first and second manned space travels, so they obviously wanted to exploit that in the quickest way possible (the commies in reality did beat US). Yes, they did just decide to be superheroes in such a short span. Every writer since threw more into the equation if an origin must be told.

• Corman F4 barely knew what to do with the Storms given they were barely rationalized in their comic intro's (Can Sue & Johnny come out to play...in space?) and had the rocket fail because of Doom.
• Ultimate F4 changed it to Stargate, definitely looked military/government funded, after they focused more on Ben & Reed as kids.
• Story F4 modernized the original origin: Vic is Elon Musk, Reed's dead broke with a dream to capture the rays for scientific advancement, Sue has been working for Vic as lead researcher, Ben is a pilot, and Johnny is a former pilot. The cosmic rays in this case is more like a rare astronomical event, but they hadn't realized how soon they would actually come in contact.
• Trank F4 goes back to Ultimate, except they kept the original motivation of doing what they were told not do and paying the price for it.

What is quite the curveball is that there have been multiple alien invasions, some of the MCU heroes including Spider-Man have already gone to space + met the folks guarding the galaxy, Strange can open up to any dimension, Thor has visited other realms, and they're constantly adding to the fact that this or that revolutionary discovery has already been made decades prior to The Avengers, including the upcoming Cap Marvel.

 

[Flint Marko]

I think it's funny that finally getting the team into the MCU which everyone praises for "fidelity to the source" (which is frankly overstating things to be honest in my view but there's more than enough out there that DO make that claim)

How is that overstating things? No one is arguing they stick to the source material to the absolute letter every single time, but they clearly do a better job of this than anyone else making superhero movies. It's pretty easy to see why they are regularly praised for it.