First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Rage]

I don't think that having Cap go AWOL will make the Armed Forces look like fools. They are using Steve in the best way they currently (at the time) know how. They may still be training him at the time or testing him at the time. The whole angle of Steve going AWOL to save a friend in need doesn't look bad on the military, but instead shows the courage of Steve to do the "right thing" over the following orders...

in The Adventures of Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty he constantly sneaks off the base he is assigned to and goes Nazi smashing (before he is properly trained) and it is only after finding this out that military gives him the costume and the shield... prior to that, they just had him hiding in a military base doing basic training... what's the difference? The difference is we'll get to see the suit soon (I would guess)

 

[roach]

I don't think that having Cap go AWOL will make the Armed Forces look like fools. They are using Steve in the best way they currently (at the time) know how. They may still be training him at the time or testing him at the time. The whole angle of Steve going AWOL to save a friend in need doesn't look bad on the military, but instead shows the courage of Steve to do the "right thing" over the following orders...

in The Adventures of Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty he constantly sneaks off the base he is assigned to and goes Nazi smashing (before he is properly trained) and it is only after finding this out that military gives him the costume and the shield... prior to that, they just had him hiding in a military base doing basic training... what's the difference? The difference is we'll get to see the suit soon (I would guess)

If they put him on a base and trained him I would be ok with that...I think it comes to if they treat it with dignity. Having Cap on stage embarrassed and itching to fight doesnt seem to dignify Cap.
I watched Watchmen today(which answers the age old question..who watches the watchmen...Me)...The scene where Dr Manhatten is created by the government...where he burns the symbol on his head and is given the name....thats what they should do for Cap.

 

[Rage]

In the comics... the idea of Captain America is actually Steve's and the costume is based on a couple of doodles he did in his sketch book. That is why he has no problems with wearing the costume in the Marvel Universe. I have no problem with the costume already existing as a propaganda tool that the army uses and they put steve in it... so long as he gives it his all while in it and begs the army to send him to the front instead (behind the scenes) Steve Rogers would do anything to serve his country (short of murder) and he would do what they asked of him and do it to the best of his abilities... but he would want to do more... and that is where I think the inner conflict/turmoil will lie.

 

[Webhead2006]

I was thinking about it, and I don't think it will end up like that. So he goes AWOL to save a friend, he impresses on the battlefield, and the government won't charge him or anything because he's kicking ass on the battlefield. In fact they would reward him with the round indestructible shield. As long is it isn't really forced or implied, it won't become anything like that.

I can easily see him easily being in war 20-30 minutes into the film, which would easily give another 1 and a half/hour and 45 minutes of exposition. Plenty of time to set up the rest of the film.

Yea i could see it going like that. We start off with steve being forced to do the whole USO thing while at this time govt is still trying to figure out how best way would be to figure out how to unlock the forumula from steve's blood. So they would be testing him while he is forced to be doing these shows.

Plus for all we know it could only be a few shows and not even a long period. Then we get to the whole point steve is getting sick of being on the sidelines and awol.

Then when he returns saving the day there. The govt finally sees it was wrong to keep him locked up pretty much. And then this is where we can get to the round shield being given to him and a more battle hardy suit for him to wear.

 

[afan]

I don't think that having Cap go AWOL will make the Armed Forces look like fools. They are using Steve in the best way they currently (at the time) know how.

The AWOL device alone does not make the armed forces look foolish. Steve's reason for going AWOL i.e. relegated to the USO, does.

If.....The Invaders are in the film (it has been stated that some are), they are being used in combat, and the Red Skull is the Red Skull we know and love, then we are dealing with a world that recognizes super-heroes. How then does an organization, that believes the most valuable use of a super-hero is in a theatrical production, not look foolish.

 

[Rage]

I think the reason Steve goes AWOL is to save either Peggy or Bucky... not because he is sick of sitting on the sidelines. I don't think he goes AWOL to stick it to the army... he goes AWOL because someone close to him is in trouble. I think that while going AWOL he will impress and inspire the troops and the government realize that they need this guy on the field of battle and not in the USO... so they give him a better shield and hook him up with the Invaders.

 

[Rage]

I am actually more concerned with the appearance of the Invaders and Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos than I am with Cap appearing in the USO... That seems like it could eat up a bunch of screen time and if what I think about the Marvel movieverse is true (that there were no Super Humans known to the public before IM and TIH) then explaining the Invaders might be difficult or contradict what has come before.

 

[roach]

but the point is if they already have this team of Invaders why not stick Rogers there instead of the USO tour

 

[OB12]

Maybe because the Invaders aren't superhuman, so unlike Rogers, they don't risk losing something that can't recreate.

 

[roach]

I am actually more concerned with the appearance of the Invaders and Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos than I am with Cap appearing in the USO... That seems like it could eat up a bunch of screen time and if what I think about the Marvel movieverse is true (that there were no Super Humans known to the public before IM and TIH) then explaining the Invaders might be difficult or contradict what has come before.

They are introducing these international characters so it will do well over seas.
Just because there are no superhumans known to the public before IM and TIH doesnt mean they didnt exist. Perhaps the level of secrecy around the Invaders in on par with Delta Force or Seal Team 6.
My theory is that superhumans are around and active just not publicly known...why else would there be an Avengers Iniative if Tony is the first one???

 

[roach]

Maybe because the Invaders aren't superhuman, so unlike Rogers, they don't risk losing something that can't recreate.

then why put a superhuman on a team of regular humans????

 

[OB12]

I am going to say that Cap is not put there, he joins up with them after going AWOL to save Bucky.

 

[afan]

I think the reason Steve goes AWOL is to save either Peggy or Bucky... not because he is sick of sitting on the sidelines. I don't think he goes AWOL to stick it to the army... he goes AWOL because someone close to him is in trouble. I think that while going AWOL he will impress and inspire the troops and the government realize that they need this guy on the field of battle and not in the USO... so they give him a better shield and hook him up with the Invaders.

I think you and I agree that the act of going AWOL does not in and of itself make the Army/US command look foolish.

I am actually more concerned with the appearance of the Invaders and Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos than I am with Cap appearing in the USO...That seems like it could eat up a bunch of screen time and if what I think about the Marvel movieverse is true (that there were no Super Humans known to the public before IM and TIH) then explaining the Invaders might be difficult or contradict what has come before.

I agree totally, It's Cap's moment, but according to Johnston's quotes The Invaders are featured thruout the second half of the film.

but the point is if they already have this team of Invaders why not stick Rogers there instead of the USO tour

Yup.

 

[Rage]

Maybe Steve knows about the Invaders and that helps fuel his desire to get out there... and not remain in the USO.

 

[Rage]

They are introducing these international characters so it will do well over seas.
Just because there are no superhumans known to the public before IM and TIH doesnt mean they didnt exist. Perhaps the level of secrecy around the Invaders in on par with Delta Force or Seal Team 6.
My theory is that superhumans are around and active just not publicly known...why else would there be an Avengers Iniative if Tony is the first one???

That would work (and hopefully that is what they do)

 

[roach]

Maybe Steve knows about the Invaders and that helps fuel his desire to get out there... and not remain in the USO.

Scientist:"Rogers tests are off the chart. He is the pinaccle of human perfection...the strongest and fastest a human will ever be."
General:"Yeah but what do we do with him....we cant make anymore."
Politician:"Well Bob Hope is looking for a new comedy partner on the USO circuit."
General:"Well we were going to put him on the Invaders but since you pay the bills....USO it is

 

[Webhead2006]

well maybe the invaders dont form to after steve first appears. we dont know yet.

 

[Rage]

Scientist:"Rogers tests are off the chart. He is the pinaccle of human perfection...the strongest and fastest a human will ever be."
General:"Yeah but what do we do with him....we cant make anymore."
Politician:"Well Bob Hope is looking for a new comedy partner on the USO circuit."
General:"Well we were going to put him on the Invaders but since you pay the bills....USO it is

Perfectly logical Put the two most powerful men in America together... a sound plan

 

[Rage]

Scientist:"Rogers tests are off the chart. He is the pinaccle of human perfection...the strongest and fastest a human will ever be."
General:"Yeah but what do we do with him....we cant make anymore."
Politician:"Well Bob Hope is looking for a new comedy partner on the USO circuit."
General:"Well we were going to put him on the Invaders but since you pay the bills....USO it is

Sounds perfectly logical to me Why not put the 2 most powerful men in America together and team them up to fight low troop moral

 

[Infinity9999x]

Scientist:"Rogers tests are off the chart. He is the pinaccle of human perfection...the strongest and fastest a human will ever be."
General:"Yeah but what do we do with him....we cant make anymore."
Politician:"Well Bob Hope is looking for a new comedy partner on the USO circuit."
General:"Well we were going to put him on the Invaders but since you pay the bills....USO it is

I could easily see the logic being "he's the strongest and fastest human in the world."
"Yes, but how much can one man do?"

Of course they're later proven wrong, but it's easy to understand that logic. As fast and strong as Cap is, it's hard to imagine one man being able to do much against an army.

Of course if the Defenders are already formed by this point, the logic isn't quite so sound, but we don't know that situation yet.

 

[Dragon]

I could easily see the logic being "he's the strongest and fastest human in the world."
"Yes, but how much can one man do?"

Of course they're later proven wrong, but it's easy to understand that logic. As fast and strong as Cap is, it's hard to imagine one man being able to do much against an army.

Of course if the Defenders are already formed by this point, the logic isn't quite so sound, but we don't know that situation yet.

But Cap's role was never to fight an entire army. It isn't like they'd place him atop a hill to take on all comers by his lonesome.

Cap's missions would be covert. He, simply by being alone could hit the enemy where they weren't looking.

Not to mention, that in his training they would place him in battle simulations against increasing numbers of soldiers as they'd want to know the limits of his abilities. So, while they wouldn't want him to have to battle an army, they'd know that he was certainly capable of defeating large numbers of enemy combatants.

And let's also be clear- even if they managed to replicate the super soldier formula- it's highly unlikely that the army would be able to sustain more than a platoon. The difficulty of finding suitable subjects, expense of caring for them
(It isn't like they could allow super soldiers to live in the suburbs after their military stint was over). the security risks (suppose one got captured and was made a test subject for the enemy) would mean that even under the best of circumstances, the super soldiers would only serve as covert operatives, and certainly not be fighting as a unit (imagine if they were all killed at once) So even they wouldn't be fighting the entire army.

Another thing to note- the army, in creating a mass of super soldiers would be in fact, creating the very Master Race that the Nazis were aspiring to create- and so would risk perpetuating the same problem. It would be very possible that the super soldiers could rebel, believing themselves to actually be superior and deserving to be in control. So that's another reason the army would want to keep their numbers small.

 

[Dragon]

Maybe because the Invaders aren't superhuman, so unlike Rogers, they don't risk losing something that can't recreate.

The Human Torch and Sub-mariner aren't superhuman?

 

[Dragon]

I'm talking about The Comedian's costume during the Vietnam war.

And it was just as outrageous as Cap's, not to mention not as protective since that Domino mask wouldn't do alot. Just because the color scheme was darker that makes it okay?

Okay so Spiderman's costume didn't have an extensive origin, but he did have his legit reasons in the film and it didn't just pop out of nowhere.

It was a style choice. Which is fine for Peter. But Cap's suit is more than that.

Like a USO show?

Nope. Like real victories on the battlefield; not singing and dancing.

Nah but I like NC's videos and he's pretty smart when it comes to films. But this could potential (note: potentially, not exactly) be the reaction of the some of the GA, but like you said it was also for laughs too.

Yeah, and like he said, he never read the comic so he's only judging cap based on a poor representation. It's like judging Spidey based on thec 70's TV series.

Also the NC loves comic book films as some of his most favorite comic books films are Batman 89', The Dark Knight, and Superman.

Those are all considered classic films that transcend the genre. People who have no interest in comics love them.

There is a huge difference to fighting crime and fighting in a war. Some people don't see a point to propaganda on the battlefield. Its efficient, but why?

They're both battlefields, accept one is between sovereign nations. And make no mistake, both use propaganda. What do you think Batman's approach is for? The reason for propaganda in a war is to not only help achieve a victory, but to win the hearts and minds in the aftermath of the victory. For the Nazis- having the Red Skull- a visual, physical representation of Death on their side, they served to give their victims the idea that they were in a hopeless position by opposing them. With Cap, the US wanted to bring hope- to establish an image that the US cause was good, friendly and honorable. They intended to bring those who were against the Nazis inspiration that the US was a savior and would help them rebuild their lives post-victory. That's why the bright colors.

The USO idea eases the transition of the suit the battlefield while also seeing how important propaganda would be on the battlefield.

How? If anything, the USO show presents the suit as a clown-costume meant to entertain, not inspire. Everyone here including you acknowledge that Cap singing and dancing would look silly.

And this isn't needed. All they have to do is show the Red Skull first. Establishing both what Cap will be up against and that costumes are already in use for propaganda. Then, showing Steve watch newsreels of Human Torch and Sub-Mariner would further establish costumed figures on the batlefield.

I'm not talking about Hulk. I'm talking about Abomination. Also, Banner was testing off previous versions of the SSS formula, and it had to come from somewhere.

The Hulk and Abomination come from the same formula. That's why Ross wants the Hulk captured. And- again- Blonsky's reaction shows that the Super Soldier formula is still not perfected. But back to the point- TIH happens decades later. They would, as I'd said have new technology for use in developing the formula that wouldn't have existed when Cap was first developed. And just like there was the one scientist that came up with the formula that was killed, they later have Bruce Banner who is able to refine the formula in ways his predecessors couldn't.

But the government would not just give up. Its not like they would be successful at creating another Super Soldier anyway.

I'm not saying they would give up. But there's but so much blood they can draw from Steve. They continue experimenting with it, but they'd still send him into battle. They'd realize that there are strategies that would be best served with a lone operative of Steve's capabilities.

No, I'm not talking about from a narrative standpoint, but from a structural standpoint as in the USO scene would be precursor to Cap's introduction to the battlefield. Plus its shifts the tone to a more lighthearted and possibly humorous tone before shifting back to a more serious film like Iron Man did when there Jericho missiles attacking that village. In fact I think both the the testing of his suit, and that scene are comparable.

The testing of the armor was humorous, not silly, which again pretty much everyone here agrees Cap singing would be. And the armor tests were also dynamic and exciting. What part of the USO show will be? There can certainly be humor in training and testing of Cap. You can find humor anywhere.

Why so cynical? I just agreed with you that there shouldn't be singing and dancing.

Not being cynical. Just honest.

 

[Rage]

(It isn't like they could allow super soldiers to live in the suburbs after their military stint was over). the security risks (suppose one got captured and was made a test subject for the enemy) would mean that even under the best of circumstances, the super soldiers would only serve as covert operatives, and certainly not be fighting as a unit (imagine if they were all killed at once) So even they wouldn't be fighting the entire army..

Thinking too much into it. The main objective is to get stronger, faster, smarter soldiers... and get them in the field ASAP! And the original idea WAS to have platoons of these guys to fight in combat... not do covert missions. For someone who seems to take a hardline stance on wanting to stick to cannon... you are going off reservation on this one. While it makes sense... its not what the plan was.

Another thing to note- the army, in creating a mass of super soldiers would be in fact, creating the very Master Race that the Nazis were aspiring to create- and so would risk perpetuating the same problem. It would be very possible that the super soldiers could rebel, believing themselves to actually be superior and deserving to be in control. So that's another reason the army would want to keep their numbers small.

Someone watches too much Star Trek (that is a story line involving Khan that ran through the original, the second motion picture and a few episodes of Enterprise) Like I said above... the government wants to get the upper hand in combat situations and creating superhumans and the ramifications aren't even part of the equation at that point.

The Hulk and Abomination come from the same formula. That's why Ross wants the Hulk captured. And- again- Blonsky's reaction shows that the Super Soldier formula is still not perfected. But back to the point- TIH happens decades later. They would, as I'd said have new technology for use in developing the formula that wouldn't have existed when Cap was first developed. And just like there was the one scientist that came up with the formula that was killed, they later have Bruce Banner who is able to refine the formula in ways his predecessors couldn't.

The Hulk was an entirely different experiment than the mutated or subpar version of the SSS that Blonsky took.

 

[Infinity9999x]

But Cap's role was never to fight an entire army. It isn't like they'd place him atop a hill to take on all comers by his lonesome.

Cap's missions would be covert. He, simply by being alone could hit the enemy where they weren't looking.
Not to mention, that in his training they would place him in battle simulations against increasing numbers of soldiers as they'd want to know the limits of his abilities. So, while they wouldn't want him to have to battle an army, they'd know that he was certainly capable of defeating large numbers of enemy combatants.

And let's also be clear- even if they managed to replicate the super soldier formula- it's highly unlikely that the army would be able to sustain more than a platoon. The difficulty of finding suitable subjects, expense of caring for them
(It isn't like they could allow super soldiers to live in the suburbs after their military stint was over). the security risks (suppose one got captured and was made a test subject for the enemy) would mean that even under the best of circumstances, the super soldiers would only serve as covert operatives, and certainly not be fighting as a unit (imagine if they were all killed at once) So even they wouldn't be fighting the entire army.

Another thing to note- the army, in creating a mass of super soldiers would be in fact, creating the very Master Race that the Nazis were aspiring to create- and so would risk perpetuating the same problem. It would be very possible that the super soldiers could rebel, believing themselves to actually be superior and deserving to be in control. So that's another reason the army would want to keep their numbers small.

The original plan of the SS project was to create an army of super soldiers, at least that what I've always been lead to believe. So Cap wasn't supposed to fight alone to begin with. This is what causes the hesitation for them to put him into action.

Also, I think it would work if they show us scenes of Cap being put into small battles the government knows we'll win. Small-risk situations (as small risk as war can be) where Cap isn't really allowed to do much, but it looks good because "Captain America" got us another win. Even if he wasn't allowed to do anything.

And I don't know why you think the cost of housing the soldiers after the war would be too much. The soldiers would likely only be known by the men they fought with. After the war the gov't would either relocate them or incorporate them into the government as super spies. Not a big deal at all.

As I said, I'm pretty sure the entire purpose of the SS project was to create an army of super soldiers, not just one.