Ahhh great post! Finally some further confirmation of Heath's Joker in the third film.
Maybe someone can find it, but I believe there was a quote from Aaron Eckhart that also said that the third film was going to feature Heath as well.
I never thought there was much doubt. His final scene with Batman in TDK always had the vibe that he would be back.
The fact Heath had plans for another movie means he must have had discussions with Nolan, otherwise he wouldn't be planning for it.
No idea? There was buzz after the first trailer, and he was signed for a third movie. It wouldn't be unlikely if Heath figured he would return to the role, with or without Chris. He loved the character so much, he most likely thought of a few ways to add this or that to the performance (whether those ideas would be rejected or not..)Of course he was. Actors don't plan for movies they have no idea they'll be in. Especially when they just got done finishing playing the role and have no idea how audiences will react to your character. There's no way Heath just assumed he'd be back again unless he and Nolan talked about Joker returning. His family certainly wouldn't have been aware of such plans for a future role unless something concrete had been discussed and he told them he was planning for it.
This thread's question has just been answered. Joker would have been back.
No idea? There was buzz after the first trailer, and he was signed for a third movie.
It wouldn't be unlikely if Heath figured he would return to the role, with or without Chris. He loved the character so much, he most likely thought of a few ways to add this or that to the performance (whether those ideas would be rejected or not..)
Something concrete? You're overthinking and reading too much into a quote from his sister.
Yes, of course he would have been back. That wasn't the question of this thread.
I think it's a bit of a leap to say that Heath was having in-depth discussions with Chris "I think about one movie at a time" Nolan about his role on the third film based on a comment from his sisters. I'm sure there may have been some loose conversations. I mean, obviously- they did not kill off his character. They clearly left room for him to return, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were some loose discussions/questions from Heath. I just have my doubts that Nolan was like, "this specifically will be your role in the third film and you will have X amount of screen time". I don't think he had those answers yet, nor was he focused on figuring out the answers.
Fun what if question
If Heath Ledger had returned for a TDK sequel, What other villains/characters could work well with him? Would he be the main source of conflict for the sequel or play a supporting role to another antagonist?
I'd love to hear some opinions.
I didn't say in depth. I said concrete. As in they discussed ideas for the Joker's return in the third movie. You can't make plans for a role unless you have some ideas as to where your character is going to be going. Otherwise you're just flying blind.
It had to be some kind of sizable role, too. If they were discussing a minor Crane in TDK/R sized type of role, then that requires no real planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo.
Heath could have very well had his own preliminary thoughts about where he wanted the character to go after TDK. After all, he and Nolan were extremely collaborative about bringing him to life from the beginning and Nolan let Heath have a ton of creative license with it.
We're talking about the very early, rough stages of the creative process here.
I have no doubt the role would've been bigger than a cameo
The conversation could've been as simple as "You know we'll have to bring you back in the next movie...". Heath then gets excited and starts thinking about ways he can make the role fresh for himself the next time around.
Similar to how Heath already had a take on the character in his head before Nolan ever handed him a script for TDK.
Ledger says that even though The Dark Knight is in preproduction and has yet to see a finished script for the film, he does have a good idea of what his Joker will be like.
"You know, I want it to be a very sinister kind of thing," he says. "It's so early that I'm trying to leave it open at this point and I don't want to be glued down to any one idea. I've been kind of trying to delay my commitment to the preparation process on that because I'm just trying to extend my holiday. I definitely have an image in my head and I definitely have something up my sleeve."
I'm pretty sure we all remember the buzz surrounding the first TDK trailer.Show me links to this buzz please.
Yes, with or without Chris. This may be an assumption, because none of us know the fine details of his contract, but Bale and the gang had a 3 film contract. Bale even said this much promoting Batman Begins (on the Charlie Rose show along with Chris) that they had him for a few. If the studio wants Heath, Christian etc back...then they have to do it. They're under contract. That's my assumption. I could be wrong, but that's how i took it. So Heath doesn't have control over who would directing "Batman 3". Nolan could have returned, or walked away, and perhaps Heath would have been forced to return. Even without Nolan, i don't think Heath Ledger would return kicking and screaming.With or without Chris? Not in a million years do I believe for a second Heath would return to the role without Chris. Or any of the actors would for that matter. No way. This was Nolan's vision. His world. The Joker is the character they created together.
No, that is not the only remotely plausible scenario. It's all hearsay from a family member.So the only remotely plausible scenario where Heath had been making plans for a role he literally just finished is if he and Nolan discussed concrete plans for Joker coming back again.
If i ever said cameo, i didn't mean one little scene that has zero significance to the main story. Cameo, glorified cameo, hell even a supporting role. If it's a glorified cameo, i would mean more like one or two chunky scenes where the Joker is in Arkham Asylum. Heath prepared for his roles ahead of time. Quality over quantity. I don't think the size of the role matters to certain actors. Maybe Heath used his own logic, and thought Joker must be locked up in Arkham in the next film if/when he returns, so what would that be like? No makeup, straight jacket maybe? No use of his hands. Different physical forms of expression. Little things like this could have been in his excited mind, even privately, without even discussing it with another filmmaker. Especially knowing Nolan, who wouldn't think about these things halfway through the editing process. That's when Heath died, timeline wise. During editing. Nolan's next project was Inception. I seriously doubt his mind was on this or that possibility for another Batman movie.Yes, it is. If it was a minor role some of you were claiming it would likely have been, one which you likened to Crane in TDK and TDKR; http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=35123117&postcount=12
That wouldn't require much, if any planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo, and not even a cameo that has any significance at all to the main story. How much planning do you think Cillian Murphy put into sitting on a bench banging a gavel for two brief scenes lol?
Yes, exactly. He and everyone else with at least half a brain (which includes all of us here) had some basic ideas on where his character was going because of how TDK ended. Joker was on his way to Arkham Asylum. So of course he would have his own ideas. Even in private.You can't make plans for a role unless you have some ideas as to where your character is going to be going. Otherwise you're just flying blind.
It had to be some kind of sizable role, too. If they were discussing a minor Crane in TDK/R sized type of role, then that requires no real planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo.
I'm pretty sure we all remember the buzz surrounding the first TDK trailer.
Yes, with or without Chris. This may be an assumption, because none of us know the fine details of his contract, but Bale and the gang had a 3 film contract. Bale even said this much promoting Batman Begins (on the Charlie Rose show along with Chris) that they had him for a few. If the studio wants Heath, Christian etc back...then they have to do it. They're under contract. That's my assumption. I could be wrong, but that's how i took it. So Heath doesn't have control over who would directing "Batman 3". Nolan could have returned, or walked away, and perhaps Heath would have been forced to return. Even without Nolan, i don't think Heath Ledger would return kicking and screaming.
Nolan and Ledger may have created that version together, but they don't own the character, and if WB wanted to recast or get a new director, or if Nolan wanted to walk after TDK...then that's what would have happened.
No, that is not the only remotely plausible scenario. It's all hearsay from a family member.
If i ever said cameo, i didn't mean one little scene that has zero significance to the main story. Cameo, glorified cameo, hell even a supporting role. If it's a glorified cameo, i would mean more like one or two chunky scenes where the Joker is in Arkham Asylum.
Heath prepared for his roles ahead of time.
Maybe Heath used his own logic, and thought Joker must be locked up in Arkham in the next film if/when he returns, so what would that be like? No makeup, straight jacket maybe? No use of his hands. Different physical forms of expression. Little things like this could have been in his excited mind, even privately, without even discussing it with another filmmaker. Especially knowing Nolan, who wouldn't think about these things halfway through the editing process. That's when Heath died, timeline wise. During editing. Nolan's next project was Inception. I seriously doubt his mind was on this or that possibility for another Batman movie.
Yes, exactly. He and everyone else with at least half a brain (which includes all of us here) had some basic ideas on where his character was going because of how TDK ended. Joker was on his way to Arkham Asylum. So of course he would have his own ideas. Even in private.
His sister said HE had plans. There's no proof that he was talking with Chris, and until i hear more about that, i refuse to believe there was anything "concrete" as you put it.
Flying blind is perfectly fine for an actor who is brainstorming ideas in their head. That's the process. Experimentation, which he did back in the day when he got the role in the first place. Some ideas stick, some don't.
A sizable role? Sure. But a sizable role for the Joker could include one single scene that lasts 5 or 10 minutes. If Joker is in a new situation (like being locked up) then for an actor like Heath or Daniel Day Lewis or even DeNiro...that could require some planning. One actor may not plan for a cameo. Another actor might. One actor may not do too much planning for a huge role. The other actor would feel like it's a must.
This argument is getting out of hand lol.
The sister's quote is, "I know Heath had plans for another Batman". That does not automatically translate into him actively planning anything. That can easily just mean that Heath was aware that he'd be back and was looking forward to the phone ringing from Chris Nolan again in the not too distant future, and nothing more than that. I believe her, but I don't take it literally in that he was already actively preparing for the role. "Plans" can also just mean like...I have plans next weekend. It was something he was prepared to block out his schedule for, because he knew he had one of the best experiences of his career on TDK. To say that Nolan gave him detailed notes on what his character would be up to in the next film...I find it unlikely and I think that's kind of a big leap. Especially with Nolan being notoriously secretive, and notoriously not too concerned about sequels when he's working on a given film.
I will reiterate once again, all I'm going to take from this is that it just makes it more sad knowing that Heath was looking forward to coming back. And I think it also squashes the "The Joker role killed Heath" myth once and for all. He clearly had the time of his life and was excited to return.
Joker and Scarecrow like in Knightfall. I loved their team up;
I was talking about buzz about Joker's performance after the first big TDK trailer.Sure, buzz of excitement about the movie. Not buzz that Joker will be in the third movie. Nobody was even thinking of the third movie when the first trailer came out. So if there was buzz about Joker being in the third movie, lets see some proof of it.
None of us know. We've heard that he was signed for another film.Not may be an assumption, it is an assumption. Why would you assume Heath would come back without Chris if he was not obligated to do so? He never mentioned he was contracted to do a second movie in any interview he did.
That is a very different to being contractually obligated to coming back like Bale.
Not if he was obligated to return. Also, it is a possibility that he would return if Nolan was producing, and another talented director took Nolan's place.Obviously they don't own the character, but this version was their baby. A product of their creative collaboration. So I fully believe if Heath had the choice he wouldn't be entertaining another Batman movie unless his collaborator and fellow visionary Chris had discussed it with him.
I'm not saying she's lying. But it is the definition of hearsay. There isn't proof. So it could have been Heath just excited and talking about VERY basic plans for the future IF and when he returned to the role. No matter who's directing. It's just talk, and it doesn't confirm he ever talked to Chris about characterization or storyline ideas for a third movie. You're putting that into it because you want to believe that Joker was always going to be in a huge role in the sequel to TDK. Most likely because you weren't happy with some of TDKR. You're usually a very technical individual and correct posters when they don't deliver absolute facts, proof etc. But here, you kinda seem willing to stretch this out a bit.Yes, it is the the only remotely plausible scenario. It may be hearsay, but what reason is there to believe it is untrue? Why would the family lie? And 9 years later, too. There's nothing to be gained from it. It's a more credible source than anything we've had on this.
It doesn't require much prep or planning, correct. But it may still require prep and planning depending on the actor and if they're having some fun thinking up ideas for said cameo. You or i were not in Ledger's head, we don't know his process.You likened it to Crane's cameos in TDK and TDKR. Which are small brief cameos. A cameo is a cameo, and it doesn't require much prep or planning, especially when the next movie is YEARS away.
It's not relevant if i have that information or not. I don't follow every detail of his process and career, but i do know that he was dedicated. Character actors, method actors usually are. It's not out of the question to think of Bale, Ledger, Daniel Day Lewis, Hardy to name a few...having fun thinking of ways to approach a character they love. Cameo or lead role. Maybe he did this for every single role. Maybe he didn't.Yeah, roles where he was a main character. Name me a cameo type role you know of that he prepped for years in advance.
1. Why not? He's on his way to Arkham. Batman as a symbol wins, gets what he wanted at the very end, so Gotham could benefit. Sure Joker could escape in the third film, as the story progresses. But they weren't working on the story in that way. Joker would be sitting in a cell when we first see him, that much Heath should have known. I mean, nothing is concrete as you put it. There's no proof that Nolan said to him "hey when the next movie starts, Joker is let loose!". There's no proof of conversation with Chris. So if he had some plans, he wouldn't be writing the third movie in his head. That's not his job. He's an actor. He would look to what is obvious, and that is, Joker is on his way to Arkham...Batman wins the battle. So obviously he's in a cell when we first see him.Two things;
1. Why would Heath assume Joker would be locked up in the next movie? Was Crane locked up in Rises after being captured in TDK? Is the possibility of Joker escaping an option Heath didn't think was possible? We're talking about a franchise that had two major prison breaks in it.
2. Nolan first approached Hardy about playing Bane while they were still doing Inception. So this claim he doesn't think about future movies while working on another one is baloney. There's no reason to believe Ledger and Nolan didn't have discussions about Joker's return for a third movie and what he may get up to.
Well, even though i think all of that was delivered at the end of TDK AND TDKR. The final scene in TDK is non-linear. As Gordon says his little speech, the shots are minutes later. They hunted him after he ran out of sight from Jim and his son. The dogs chased him. And then in TDKR we see more of that happen, eight years later. In fact, Batman is a symbol, and so Batman did endure the hate from the public for 8 years.And Batman was a wanted fugitive at the end of TDK, with Gordon saying they'll hunt him because he can take it. So we all expected to see Batman being hunted, hated, and enduring it because he's this watchful protector Dark Knight.
But we didn't get that. Rises jumped ahead 8 years, and didn't show an enduring Batman being hunted. It showed a broken reclusive Bruce who has not been Batman for years, and has basically given up on the world.
So if Bale prepped for the third movie based on what the ending to TDK, he'd have been wasting his time because he was prepping for the wrong kind of role. Which is why I don't think he did until he talked to Nolan. Because you can't prep and plan for a role if you have no idea where the character is going.
Same goes for Heath. He wouldn't be making plans for a second round as the Joker unless he had something concrete from Nolan to plan with.
Because actors could have their own little plans for their characters. Character work is key with good actors. Even the smallest details. Even if it's one scene for a director they admire.Yes, and why would he have plans unless he had some concrete reason to be making plans? I don't care if you believe it. That's your choice. But logic dictates he wouldn't be planning for a role he had no idea what it would be. Is Joker locked up? Free? Is he going to try and expose the Dent cover up? Is he going to go after Batman? Is he going to go after Gordon? Is he going to team with another villain?
Indeed. And he knows he's going to be locked up. I'm saying that would be enough.Brainstorming and experimentation based on something you KNOW. You have some kind of ground work or foundation for where your character is going to go, and then you brain storm and experiment on different ways you could do it.
I'm surprised, Joker. I thought for sure you'd say the Penguin.
I was talking about buzz about Joker's performance after the first big TDK trailer.
None of us know. We've heard that he was signed for another film.
Not if he was obligated to return. Also, it is a possibility that he would return if Nolan was producing, and another talented director took Nolan's place.
I'm not saying she's lying. But it is the definition of hearsay. There isn't proof.
So it could have been Heath just excited and talking about VERY basic plans for the future IF and when he returned to the role. No matter who's directing. It's just talk, and it doesn't confirm he ever talked to Chris about characterization or storyline ideas for a third movie. You're putting that into it because you want to believe that Joker was always going to be in a huge role in the sequel to TDK. Most likely because you weren't happy with some of TDKR. You're usually a very technical individual and correct posters when they don't deliver absolute facts, proof etc. But here, you kinda seem willing to stretch this out a bit.
It is not the only remotely plausible scenario. That's just not true.
Also, i believe her. But you're adding things to her quote like speaking to Nolan and exaggerating his plans. Facts are facts. And all we have is Heath himself, as an individual, had his own plans for the next movie. Nothing more, nothing less.
It doesn't require much prep or planning, correct. But it may still require prep and planning depending on the actor and if they're having some fun thinking up ideas for said cameo. You or i were not in Ledger's head, we don't know his process.
My point exactly. The movie was years away. The guy isn't stupid. If he has a contract to fulfill, and is aware that Chris may or may not return after Inception...then i doubt there would be plans beyond the basics of "Joker is likely trapped in Arkham, what can i do with that since the character is limited physically?". That's just an actor having some fun planning. This could be the exact scenario. You can't say that it HAS to be more than that. Come on man. That would be you adding to the story. And you could be right. But it's not one way.
It's not relevant if i have that information or not. I don't follow every detail of his process and career, but i do know that he was dedicated. Character actors, method actors usually are. It's not out of the question to think of Bale, Ledger, Daniel Day Lewis, Hardy to name a few...having fun thinking of ways to approach a character they love. Cameo or lead role. Maybe he did this for every single role. Maybe he didn't.
1. Why not? He's on his way to Arkham. Batman as a symbol wins, gets what he wanted at the very end, so Gotham could benefit. Sure Joker could escape in the third film, as the story progresses. But they weren't working on the story in that way. Joker would be sitting in a cell when we first see him, that much Heath should have known. I mean, nothing is concrete as you put it. There's no proof that Nolan said to him "hey when the next movie starts, Joker is let loose!". There's no proof of conversation with Chris. So if he had some plans, he wouldn't be writing the third movie in his head. That's not his job. He's an actor. He would look to what is obvious, and that is, Joker is on his way to Arkham...Batman wins the battle. So obviously he's in a cell when we first see him.
Well, even though i think all of that was delivered at the end of TDK AND TDKR. The final scene in TDK is non-linear. As Gordon says his little speech, the shots are minutes later. They hunted him after he ran out of sight from Jim and his son. The dogs chased him. And then in TDKR we see more of that happen, eight years later. In fact, Batman is a symbol, and so Batman did endure the hate from the public for 8 years.
But i already know you disagree with that, which is fine. So let's say plans changed and "we never saw him being hunted". OK. So, plans change right? If Heath had his own plans, or plans with the director, then it doesn't mean that any of that would have came to fruition.
All this talk of prep and planning. "Heath had plans", that's it. He could have been wasting his time. The Bale comparison falls flat too, because we don't know where he went after his final scene. But we do know where Joker is going. THAT is pretty concrete. Bruce, not so much. So Bale wouldn't be planning anything. Heath however, could have. And there is no proof that he would have had anything more than a cameo. There's just no proof. Even if i think it's a few key scenes, and you think it's bigger than that...it could have been a cameo.
Because actors could have their own little plans for their characters. Character work is key with good actors. Even the smallest details. Even if it's one scene for a director they admire.
You're jumping ahead. Just stop at "locked up". Everything else you listed may come later in a story that wasn't written yet. All they know is Joker is locked up. And with that little information, yes, an actor can have some plans, brainstorming ideas. You're talking story when you say going after Batman, Gordon, exposing etc. An actor will plan for movement, nuance, surroundings, lighting. There's a lot Heath could do in one room with a handheld. Look at what Hopkins did with his limitations.
Indeed. And he knows he's going to be locked up. I'm saying that would be enough.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that 10 second little chase to the Bat-Pod at the end of TDK is what they were referring to when they said Batman will be hunted and can endure it?