Civil War Past Events Driving Path to Civil War

[TheVision]

I dont agree with many things in life but they are still true.

If youre a cop or a soldier as a life choice and theres no war or crime to fight you serve no real purpose. Its not so much about craving war, but youd rather be taking on some challenge than doing something besides that. If Steve was really an artist at heart he would be painting or drawing when he wasnt fighting and planning to do that as a backup life. He doesnt do that. Hes actually a pretty lonely figure when hes not Avenging.

"The guy who wanted a family life, kids, stability went into the ice 70 years ago, sometimes I think another guy came out" - Cap

Another good example to make my point is Bruce Banner. Given the choice he wouldnt want anything to do with Hulk or being an Avenger. He's a scientist who lives to help people using his intellect. Now hes lonely because of what happened to him. If he wasnt Hulk he would def be married w/ kids etc. Cap is not that, hes a guy who was made to be a fighting machine and he wanted that position, it wasnt forced on him.

 

[TalismanRing]

It was WWII. Almost every man of his age in his country wanted to fight.

Again being an Avengers doesn't mean he doesn't want peace. Hill or Ultron saying otherwise doesn't make it so and frankly what Hill says is insulting. That he would rather their be war and death so he has a place. Come on. That's completely the anti-thesis of the man that Steve Rogers is. Steve's weapon of choice is a SHIELD because he wants to protect and save people. The sad thing is there will never be a time of complete peace; that there are people who want to do something to alleviate the pain and suffering and protect others does not mean they crave the chaos.

And no I don't interpret his face in the dream as being afraid the war is over. His face tells me that he knows it's not over, that he can't have Peggy, that he can't go home. Not that he doesn't want to go home. His look in the plane after is of loss and devastation and not acceptance and peace. At Clint's farm there's still a look of longing on his face for what he thinks he can't have. That at the end of the movie that he believes he can't have it doesn't mean he doesn't want it. But Steve Rogers is not one to wallow in what he can't have and will make do with what he does have.

 

[TheVision]

I predict Cap is f***d in Infinity War. If he emerges from that alive and starts an art gallery or retires, I'll eat my shoe.

 

[Rote]

Well, in his mind he maybe doesn't love the war, but again, it's the way he is, he can't help it. That is the part of his struggle - to accept himself as he is.

His look in the plane after is of loss and devastation and not acceptance and peace.

Yes, I believe this was a hard thing to accept about yourself in one second. He struggled with it, but at the end had to admit it. After all, why he can't have it? He was SO in love with Peggy, you want to say, that now he lost her and the family with another girl isn't an option? With all my love for Steggy, I see it VERY far-fetched.

That at the end of the movie that he believes he can't have it doesn't mean he doesn't want it.

And about wanting or not wanting, he said so himself:

“I will miss you, Tony.” “Yeah, well it’s time for me to tap out. Maybe I should take a page out of Barton’s book. Build Pepper a farm, hope nobody blows it up.”
“The simple life.”
“You could go with that.”
“I don’t know,” says Cap. “Family, stability, the guy who wanted all that went into the ice seventy-five years ago. I think someone else came out.”
“You all right?”
“I’m home.”

So, you assume, that Steve Rogers is lying to Stark?

If anything, Barton's example should made him believe, that he can have both: family and being the soldier. But on the contrary, Cap understood, that's not an option for him. He doesn't want it.

 

[TheVision]

Cap doesnt lie. Pretty sure thats a constant in his story.

I think theres always a possibility Caps future could change. But its just looking more to me like he'll go out on the battlefield rather than living a normal life. Just my opinion. And in a way, so what? Hes a great character either way. Itll be sad but at some point Cap will be gone in the MCU.

 

[TalismanRing]

The dreams weren't things as they wanted them to be - most were fears and nightmares. So I don't see how leaving Peggy behind, and seeing all his friends shot and dead and at the end standing alone among "empty chairs and empty tables" means that the life he'd rather have. Nor do I buy that Steve Rogers loves war.

Steve doesn't lie - except by omission or when he lies on enlistment papers or lies to himself.

I still can't believe people would rather Steve be dead than live a full and happy life. WTF? Why is everyone so gung ho for a character they supposedly love to die and stay dead who has never died and stayed dead in the comics for the 75 years of his existence?

 

[Rote]

The dreams weren't things as they wanted them to be - most were fears and nightmares. So I don't see how leaving Peggy behind, and seeing all his friends shot and dead and at the end standing alone among "empty chairs and empty tables" means that the life he'd rather have. Nor do I buy that Steve Rogers loves war.

Exactly. There were no dead bodies in the vision. Empty chairs and empty tables appeared ONLY after Peggy asked him to imagine the life without the war. He turned away from her to look to the hall, where he saw glimpses of the war at the start. Before that she asked him to dance, but he wasn't eager to do it. He tries after, but can imagine only like 3 seconds of them dancing without music, can't imagine them kissing. I think, it's Whedon's fault, that he made this vision unclear and ambiguous, but ALL the other stuff in the movie telling, that Steve can't live without the war. Yes, he doesn't like it about himself, but that's the whole point - to accept his true self. Yes, he wanted the life with Peggy, but now he understood, that he couldn't live it. The biggest evidence is, again, Barton's family: Steve saw, that it's possible to be the soldier and to have a family, but admitted in the end, that's not an option for him, not what he truly wants, not the man he is now.

For the record: I don't want Steve dead. He's my favorite character. But I also see no point to deny the meaning of his arc in AoU.

 

[TheVision]

Its just like many people. They couldve gone one way but they missed the window and theyre now who theyve become and probably wont change. Thats life. Cap def couldve married Peggy, left the Army, had a family and done something like the other vets but it didnt go that way. Although with his powers, it would be tough to just retire too.

 

[Rote]

And I don't understand, why people measure the happiness of the others only by themselves. There are people who need family and simple life for it,but also there are completly different people. That's fine. Why Steve has to be ordinary and generic in this as the majority?

 

[TalismanRing]

I don't see him as hesitant to be with Peggy in that vision at all. He's confused and then he pulls her too him and then he sees bloodied people sitting around him and then it fades away into "empty chairs and empty table" which has become an anthem for dead comrades and the feeling of loss of being the last one left standing.

Steve is still a young man with a world of gifts and a lot to offer. No windows are closed to him unless he wants them closed and his life is not predestined to end bloody and young. It doesn't even end that way in the comics so again why the blood lust for it to end that way on film?

I'm not measuring the happiness of Steve by my own (far from it) by seeing that Steve while finding temporary contentment does not seem happy. If we're going by what actors say Evans has said, he wants more for Steve in his personal life.

 

[Rote]

I don't see him as hesitant to be with Peggy in that vision at all. He's confused and then he pulls her too him and then he sees bloodied people sitting around him and then it fades away into "empty chairs and empty table" which has become an anthem for dead comrades and the feeling of loss of being the last one left standing.

Then you might need to rewatch this scene, because Steve didn't make a single attempt to pull Peggy closer, before all dissappeared. He saw bloodied people, but it was fake - it was just the sputtered wine. That's the whole point of the vision - the life, that is peaceful for the others,but for him still looks like war, because actually there was no war in the dance hall, only his interpretation. And when Peggy asks him to actually imagine, that now, the war is over and they can go home - only then all dissappeared. But dissappeared not to nowadays, it's still the 40s, it's just that HIS own dance hall is empty, he can't celebrate it with the others, when the war is over. Because for him it's never over. Believe me, I'm not actually glad with the role of Peggy in this vision, but it doesn't mean he didn't want her anymore. That's just the way he is. I can understand him: there are many things in life, that you THINK from the outside you would enjoy, but when you actually get involved, you realize, that's not yours.

If we're going by what actors say Evans has said, he wants more for Steve in his personal life.

Love and family are not the same things. And I totally remember, Evans said, that Cap feels very comfortable in the uniform, so I don't see any contradictions there. And I don't see, why would Cap lie to himself after he thought he wanted family? Again, Barton's example showed him, that there is no problem to have both, so why he suddenly would deny his desires? Even Stark says it to him, that he can have it. Only explanation then, that he was SO in love with Peggy, that if he can't have family with her, he can with nobody. But it's too cheesy even for me. And again, Evans never mentioned Peggy as the main problem in his love life, so, I don't think that's the case.

 

[TheVision]

Peggys dead. So he'll either find new love with someone or he wont. It all depends on what Marvel plans for the character. If Chris' contract gets renewed after Infinity War we'll know that he has a good chance of that. If not...you know.

 

[Rote]

Well, I really-really don't want to see Steve dead. But I don't see either, how his "not wanting stability" is making him doomed to die. Saying that a person can't be happy without marriage at all - well, that seems like pretty sad statement for me.

 

[TheVision]

Well I dont want to see him die if it doesnt make sense for his character arc.

 

[Stevie2020]

I see Steve's vision as an acceptance that he choose to be a soldier -- a warrior -- and to fight in order to help. And in doing so he sacrificed happiness in his own time. I don't buy that he can't imagine having had then or now any life other than a warriors existence.

Things said by Ultron, Maria Hill and the vision itself are IMO taunts, challlenges, projections and manipulations. Not gospel truths.

 

[Rote]

*Sigh
Still noone can explain me, why the example of Barton's family didn't help Steve to see, that he can both be the soldier and have a family, that he presumably wants. The vision didn't show him a single reason, why he can't. There were other soldiers, just like him, celebrating the end of the war. Because Whedon, I guess, doesn't know himself. He just decided to make Steve this way. But I think, they just can't make every single hero go into the sunset with wife and kids.
Should note, people's confidence that all are obliged to want a family is actually amusing. Okay, then.

 

[TheVision]

I really dont know what will happen with Steve. I mean if he really wanted a family he could do it. Hes a super soldier, so I think he could date a girl and have a relationship. Its his choice on how to live.

 

[Stevie2020]

*Sigh
Still noone can explain me, why the example of Barton's family didn't help Steve to see, that he can both be the soldier and have a family, that he presumably wants. The vision didn't show him a single reason, why he can't. There were other soldiers, just like him, celebrating the end of the war. Because Whedon, I guess, doesn't know himself. He just decided to make Steve this way. But I think, they just can't make every single hero go into the sunset with wife and kids.
Should note, people's confidence that all are obliged to want a family is actually amusing. Okay, then.

I didn't even perceive that as being Steve's issue, despite the last exchange with Tony. Again with the vision, he has had his private thoughts and feelings violated by SW and he has to deal with that along with some deep sadness that was very likely deeply suppressed. I would say the same thing for Black Widow's vision which apparently caused her to temporarily forget herself with Banner.

Clint's family farm was somewhat irrelevant to Caps recovery from that vision.

And I completely agree with your last paragraph in which maybe you answered your own question.

 

[fixxxer]

I don't think the two views on Cap in terms of the peace/war dichotomy need to be necessarily contradictory. Human emotions aren't binary.

Obviously, Cap's not some bloodthirsty warmonger who just wants violence for the sake of it.

He fights because it's his duty and him not fighting would mean (more) innocent people would get hurt/die. He can both long for peace and be uncomfortable with the idea of peace in an era that is (still) somewhat foreign to him.

On the flipside, he can both abhor war and still be comfortable with war because, when it comes down to it, he's (a) great at it and (b) wars are timeless.

Most humans are complex like that. Why would Cap be any different?

 

[TheVision]

Peace as Tony wants it means no more reason for Cap to be a hero, so for him it would screw everything up. What would Cap be if he wasnt needed to be a soldier? Watch the wood chopping scene in AOU. Cap isnt angry about Ultron hes angry about the team possibly ending. (rips wood in half)

 

[Rote]

Cap doesn't want the war consciously or it's not like he can't retire, because of duty. The whole point is that he's addicted to it. It's called PTSD. Does alcoholic love alcohol?
That's why in the vision other people are so happy laughing, dancing and celebrating, while Steve can't. As some people once well noted:

The cymbals crashed and Steve ducked and covered his head, a man spilled wine on his shirt and Steve thought it was a bullet wound, a woman’s red lipstick looked like a spatter of blood, the dancers danced like they were fighting, two men nearly started a brawl, Steve’s eyes flicked nervously around the room, waiting for a shelling... That gave the best insight into Steve’s PTSD. His perception is forever tainted: war is all he sees, and he can’t escape its horrible aftermath. It ruins his and Peggy’s dance, over and over. He’s always on the outside, looking in: people celebrate the war being over as he walks through their scene, but his own dance hall is empty.

So this isn't the lust for war or only duty call, it's just the way he is now and he accepted it.

 

[Smashlilman]

I think it all should be referenced in the arguments including the WSC sending a nuke to NYC, SHIELD trying to use the Tesserect to make weapons and alerting/luring Loki (and Thanos) to Earth, the WSC and SHIELD creating project Insight, the infiltration of HYDRA at the highest levels of gov't (The US Senate) and SHIELD, the Vice President of U.S. being an accomplice of Killian using US soldiers as Guinea Pigs and weapons, putting civilians in danger and covering it up as terrorism and trying to assassinate the President.

SHIELD wasn't an Rouge agency. The World Security Council was made up of diplomats from the same major governments who that will probably make up the accords. When they shot that Nuke at New York and were making weapons it was because the world governments felt like it should happen. Of course Hydra was also pulling strings but Hydra goals and the World Security Council's goals where the same up until Hydra came to the front and try to hijack it.

 

[TheVision]

I saw that club scene with Steve as showing him that his dream of another post war life was gone. He was one of those people, they are who he identified with most, now hes alone in a lot of ways. Thats why Im not sure he wants to try to start a new path in the modern age, he'd rather go out as a soldier on the field.

If you watch Steve in the Avengers scenes, to me the only thing that keeps him there is the missions. Besides that he wouldnt be with those people naturally. Hes sort of beyond them in a way.

 

[Rote]

The problem is, people see the 40s and Peggy and they are sure, it's all about what Steve is missing, when in TWS Steve already moved on. As Peggy said, sometimes we have to just start over. I blame Whedon for such dubious service. But once you pay attention, you see, that the large part of this vision was about Steve seeing the war in the dance hall, that actually shouldn't be there. That's all his PTSD perception. He is like Watson in BBC Sherlock, he needs some reseblance of the war even among peaceful life. Sherlock immediately noticed, that John is addicted to it. So is Steve here, that's the point. And now Steve can be the leader of the Avengers, but if he were in the 40s after WWII, he wouldn't get this opportunity. He would be with wife and kids, living the peaceful life.

He was one of those people, they are who he identified with most, now hes alone in a lot of ways.

But the thing is, they weren't. That's another thing, I can't understand. Do people actually think, that of all 40s era Steve missed ONLY Peggy? Because she was the only one there Steve knew. Others were random generic soldiers and their dames. No Commandos, no notWS!Bucky. I'd be glad if this vision instead was just about his lost love for Peggy,but let's face the truth: it wasn't. Because Peggy represented the chance of simple life without the war, the family, then Commandos were associated only with war. And the whole idea of DANCE was something, that Steve associated with post-war time. Because during the war he was waiting the end of it to ask Peggy for a date and a dance.
And, it's interesting one: the color of Peggy's dress in the vision. All is pictured in red and brown tones and only her dress is blue.

If you watch Steve in the Avengers scenes, to me the only thing that keeps him there is the missions. Besides that he wouldnt be with those people naturally. Hes sort of beyond them in a way.

He said, he'll miss Tony and called the new Avengers base his home, so I'm not sure, that's the case. In the end of the movie, anyway.

 

[TheVision]

Tony always calls him "the old man" etc, well thats probably how Steve feels about the Avengers, like theyre his grandkids or young friends. Thats why I think hes beyond them. Older, wiser, more enlightened. Hes still a 90 year old in a 30 yr olds body.

Steve is on a different level than them to me. Thats why hes not a party dude or living the good life when hes not Avenging. Hes the war vet who lives quietly by himself because he doesnt really relate to or trust many regular people.