Civil War Past Events Driving Path to Civil War

[TheVision]

I dont want to say Steve has a death wish but when he says stuff like "I'm not doing anything Saturday night" after Tony says "We might not make it out of this alive", well, draw your own conclusions.

Both Tony and Steve have had similar threads. Friends Dr Erskine/Yinsen dying. Being stuck in a cave/frozen in ice. Crashing the plane/Flying Nuke into space. Old Friends turning on them (Bucky/Obidiah Stane).

VileOne: I think Tony is mainly doing it because of his past screwups. I also think it falls in line with his obsession with protecting the people/controlling power (see Ultron). Maybe this last event pushes him to decide to change while Cap doesnt see it that way for his own reasons (see HYDRA). I think the main difference is Tony wants to prevent war while Steve doesnt have much to do without it. Could it be that Steve being against registration is a weird way to help him continue being a soldier in a conflict?

 

[TalismanRing]

Definitely no. That is in antithetical to who Steve Rogers is as a person. A good man.

Steve is not war mongering or causing a war where people will get hurt and die because he needs to be a soldier. That is not Steve Rogers. He became a soldier to fight bullies because he wanted to protect and save people not because he can't get his jollies without war.

 

[TheVision]

I think Cap secretly gets excited when hes fighting and he cant be happy unless hes kicking ass as a soldier. Hes not a war monger but he def likes battles. What else does he do as well as that in his life?

 

[MercurialMuroid]

Definitely no. That is in antithetical to who Steve Rogers is as a person. A good man.

Steve is not war mongering or causing a war where people will get hurt and die because he needs to be a soldier. That is not Steve Rogers. He became a soldier to fight bullies because he wanted to protect and save people not because he can't get his jollies without war.

Of course Steve would choose to end all war and violence if he could. He just knows that nothing else will be as fulfilling for him personally as protecting those in need. He wants everyone to be able to go home, in spite of knowing that he may never have that feeling of "home" himself.

This doesn't make him bad, and he would never even be tempted to prolong a fight. This just adds to how noble Cap is, self-sacrificing even.

 

[TheVision]

"You want to protect the world but you dont want it to change" - Ultron. That sounded like he was talking about Captain America more than any of the others.

 

[The_Manhunter]

I bet Thunderbolt Ross will be switching his obsession about Hulk to regulating super heroes. He'll probably say: See? This is what Hulk & Co will do if we dont put a leash on em. etc

And honestly, I think he could look pretty reasonable saying that considering everything that's gone down.

 

[The_Manhunter]

I think Tony wants to stop being a super hero "We are not soldiers". Cap has a need for it to continue. Its kinda weird but as much as Cap is a great human being, he has a thing about being a soldier thats not entirely right in the modern age. You can even tell that hes more comfortable in his uniform than in his civvys. Tony is looking for peace in our time and Cap is gung ho for the battle because without a fight hes basically a junked car. I think its a thing where for the other Avengers its a job they feel they have to do, for Cap its his total way of life.

That's a great interpretation. Especially backed up by Cap's lines at the end of AoU: "A family. Stability. The guy who wanted all that went in the ice 75 years ago. I think someone else came out."

Not sure if the wording is 100% but you know what I'm saying t:

 

[TheVision]

All Cap really is, is a military lifer. He just has more physical power than the regular dudes. He has no family and hes most comfy when hes fighting/planning missions, doing his soldier stuff, etc. Its not that unique. He said to Tony he basically doesnt want a family etc. Hes looking to be Cap full time until he kicks the bucket.

The problem with that is, most of the world wants peace and no conflicts. Cap kinda needs them to stay relevant and useful. So thats why Tonys trying to end the need for the team thru his tech, while Cap is saying "lets stop people together", "lets do this together", "lets win or lose together" etc. He cares more about The Avengers staying together than Tony does. Tony could give a damn at the end of AOU.

Tonys goal is to prevent terrorism and go home. Caps goal is to keep fighting as long as he can.

 

[TalismanRing]

"You want to protect the world but you dont want it to change" - Ultron. That sounded like he was talking about Captain America more than any of the others.

Change by causing an extinction level event by a dropping a city? Then yeah no Steve doesn't want to change it. Ultron is a homicidal nutcase and you're using his views as a basis for character assessment and morality?

The man who jumps on a grenade to save everyone, even people who treated him poorly, is not a person who causes a war because he need to be fighting. One might as well claim Steve destroyed project Insight not because he cared that it was going to murder 20 million people but would put him out of a job.

 

[Rote]

The thing is, you can't fight 24/7. What prevents you to have other things along too? I'm really pissed off with Whedon's lack of explanation here. And I'm not buying that it's because Steve is 100 years old, he's actually not. He has lived only 25-30 years in terms of actual life. What was Steve's problem with Peggy here? She is almost a soldier herself. Basically, Whedon made them not much better service, than Brutasha. And Steve "healing" with Sharon's "love" would be an assassination of his character for me.

 

[TheVision]

Without a reason to be Captain America, who is Steve Rogers? Esp when hes from another time and lost his best girl. That is the real question.

 

[RedRose]

Steve doesn't have a problem with Peggy???

 

[RedRose]

Yes but without a reason to be Captain America, who is Steve Rogers? Esp when hes from another time and lost his best girl. That is the real question.

Yes, this is what he is struggling with. He went through a few big shifts...he went from skinny Steve to big Steve, to Captain America, to Captain America in a new time.

 

[Rote]

The problem is that Steve understood, that he doesn't want family anymore, on example with Peggy. Even in the end of his vision he can't imagine properly them dancing and kissing.
And apparently, Chris Evans thinks, that Cap doesn't even love her more, than anyone.

 

[RedRose]

Well he knows the vision is a vision. If he was suddenly transported back in time and Peggy was really there, it would be a different story.

Cap does still love Peggy but she is an old lady now and no chance for a romance. That doesn't mean they don't still love each other. Its just a different type of love than he initially felt.

 

[Rote]

If he was suddenly transported back in time and Peggy was really there, it would be a different story.

Then what was the point of the vision at all? If it were all a lie, then it wouldn't have made such impact on Steve. He understood, that now he wouldn't be able to marry her and be happy. That's the point. Otherwise there is no sense in his "I don't want a family anymore", when even Tony said to him, that “You could go with that.”

Cap does still love Peggy but she is an old lady now and no chance for a romance. That doesn't mean they don't still love each other. Its just a different type of love than he initially felt.

All Evans' words about how Cap doesn't know, what love feels like. I didn't get an impression, that he was talking only about sex. And his recent interview with Chinese Modern Weekly:

Who do you think Captain America loves most. Carter, Black Widow or Bucky?
Chris: Bucky, I guess. Cap sure loves everyone. But among all the people, Bucky is the only friend who chained his life together.

See? Nothing about romantic feelings. Well, yeah, I understand all about Bucky, but at least he could have said "Bucky and Peggy". So, I guess, authors just don't consider his relationship with Peggy as such a big true love as many of us assumed, especially after Agent Carter.

 

[RedRose]

The point of the visions were to unhinge the Avengers emotionally.

Steve and Peggy didn't know each other for very long, but they had a big impact on each other. They never got the romance they wanted, just the beginnings of one. I definitely don't think they are each other's "true loves" simply because they never had the chance to become that.

 

[Rote]

The point of the visions were to unhinge the Avengers emotionally.

And so what? It went succesfully, because all of them made a point. Steve was unhinged because he understood, that he wouldn't be able to live normal life now, Whedon confirmed it in AoU commentary.

I definitely don't think they are each other's "true loves" simply because they never had the chance to become that.

The main part of love is not dates, kisses or sex. It's actually love itself and connection. And relationship. They were in love with each other many months. Yes, they didn't get that dance or chance for marriage, so what, does this fact decrease their love? Or just because now she's very old he's loving her less?

Main problem here is that Peggy was very suitable for Cap, more than anyone, because she's not an ordinary girl, she would support him with his addiction to fights, because maybe she had herself some kind of this addiction. But Whedon decreased her to be just a symbol of housewife and stability.

 

[RedRose]

And so what? It went succesfully, because all of them made a point. Steve was unhinged because he understood, that he wouldn't be able to live normal life now, Whedon confirmed it in AoU commentary.
The main part of love is not dates, kisses or sex. It's actually love itself and connection. And relationship. They were in love with each other many months. Yes, they didn't get that dance or chance for marriage, so what, does this fact decrease their love? Or just because now she's very old he's loving her less?

Even though Steve thinks certain things about his life doesn't mean they are true. Its part of his arc. I totally think AoU is a mess, but his story arc isn't over- we will def. see more in Civil War.

I think you are overthinking the Peggy thing-- it doesn't have to be an all-consuming, once-in-a-lifetime, they will never be happy with anyone else-type of love. Nor does it have to be "eh, they don't really care for each other" either. Yes, they had a connection, yes they mean something to each other, yes they love each other. But also yes, Peggy is an old woman now who lived a long full life. We know she got married, and Peggy is so passionate I'm sure she loved her husband as much as a person could love someone.

Steve isn't there yet. He is still trying to figure things out, get his best friend back, figure out who Steve Rogers is and what he wants. He will always love Peggy but his life will go on even after she is gone, just as hers went on after Steve was "gone".

 

[TheVision]

Steves actions since being unfrozen were that he hasnt moved on from Peggy. Maybe he actually has but he just stated in AOU the life he had wanted isnt something he desires anymore. Im sure part of that is because Peggy wasnt available.

I still feel Peggy was the love of his life, but that doesnt mean he couldnt love another woman its just so far noones gotten to him in that same way. I think maybe in Civil War he'll finally move on from her.

 

[Stevie2020]

Without a reason to be Captain America, who is Steve Rogers? Esp when hes from another time and lost his best girl. That is the real question.

Good question. I hope that Steve Rogers himself wrestles with that question in the movie. There'll be a lot going on though; i hope he has time to think with all that brutal fighting and whatnot going on.

The thing is, had he not gone into the ice 75 (70, dammit!) years ago, he would have lived to see the end of the war and would have been celebrated as a war hero. He would have had many, many opportunities open to him as a celebrity war hero and some of those opportunities would have allowed him to retire the uniform and the persona of CA.

He would have had a chance to explore a romantic relationship with Peggy, continue to explore friendships with his war buddies and renew friendships back home. And since he was part of the "Greatest Generation", it would have been highly likely -- practically guaranteed -- that he would marry and start a family (whether it be with Peggy or another). It would have been expected and he would have felt pressure to do it if he were reluctant. But his development as Steve Rogers the person was stunted by his prolonged hibernation and he has to redefine himself in the 21st century. And even after 5 years thawed, he struggles. But, now I've wandered into talking about the character as if this were real life.

Anyway...the accords will probably require some sort of affirmation of obedience and compliance and require the heroes to act only under the authority of the "authorities" with various restrictive guidelines, or require the heroic individuals to join agency A, B, or C and work only as duly deputized agents of said agency. Or something.

It'll be very interesting to see where Steve and Co. object to these new rules and regs. And what's in it for Stark and Co. on the opposite side.

 

[Rote]

I think you are overthinking the Peggy thing-- it doesn't have to be an all-consuming, once-in-a-lifetime, they will never be happy with anyone else-type of love.

Yeah, I guess now I totally have the cofirmation, that it doesn't.
But again:

Main problem here is that Peggy was very suitable for Cap, more than anyone, because she's not an ordinary girl, she would support him with his addiction to fights, because maybe she had herself some kind of this addiction. But Whedon decreased her to be just a symbol of housewife and stability.

Im sure part of that is because Peggy wasnt available.

I still feel Peggy was the love of his life

Well, I think, that every person has the right to interpret what he see in the movies as he likes, but I personally prefer to stick to the official take on things from directors, writers and actors. And Whedon clearly said, what he wanted to say. And Evans obviously doesn't consider Steve to be SO MUCH in love with Peggy, because you can't love your friend more than the love of your life. And you can't not know "what love feels like" after meeting this One girl. So I see no point to argue on this anymore.

 

[Stevie2020]

Even though Steve thinks certain things about his life doesn't mean they are true. Its part of his arc. I totally think AoU is a mess, but his story arc isn't over- we will def. see more in Civil War.

I think you are overthinking the Peggy thing-- it doesn't have to be an all-consuming, once-in-a-lifetime, they will never be happy with anyone else-type of love. Nor does it have to be "eh, they don't really care for each other" either. Yes, they had a connection, yes they mean something to each other, yes they love each other. But also yes, Peggy is an old woman now who lived a long full life. We know she got married, and Peggy is so passionate I'm sure she loved her husband as much as a person could love someone.

Steve isn't there yet. He is still trying to figure things out, get his best friend back, figure out who Steve Rogers is and what he wants. He will always love Peggy but his life will go on even after she is gone, just as hers went on after Steve was "gone".

ITA will all of this.

As romantic as I find the whole Steggy thing, it is what it is: the first blush of love and a platonic reunion nearly 70 years later flavored with dementia.

I am expecting some sort of wrapping up and/or moving forward for Steve Rogers at the end of Civil War. It may involve a "death" be it one of ideals or a character death (which will assuredly be temporary). Or it may involve a new opportunity of some sort.

 

[TeeKay]

All Cap really is, is a military lifer. He just has more physical power than the regular dudes. He has no family and hes most comfy when hes fighting/planning missions, doing his soldier stuff, etc. Its not that unique. He said to Tony he basically doesnt want a family etc. Hes looking to be Cap full time until he kicks the bucket.

The problem with that is, most of the world wants peace and no conflicts. Cap kinda needs them to stay relevant and useful. So thats why Tonys trying to end the need for the team thru his tech, while Cap is saying "lets stop people together", "lets do this together", "lets win or lose together" etc. He cares more about The Avengers staying together than Tony does. Tony could give a damn at the end of AOU.

Tonys goal is to prevent terrorism and go home. Caps goal is to keep fighting as long as he can.

Steve did say in TWS that he didn't know what he'd do with himself if he "got out" or something like that. Whilst Ultron was mocking him, his jab wasn't entirely untrue either and Steve knows it. It'll be interesting to see what his arc is in CW.

 

[TheVision]

Where Steve is at the end of CW will be very interesting. Im wondering if there will be some crazy twist for him instead of the usual "good guy does everything right" thread.