Civil War Past Events Driving Path to Civil War

[TalismanRing]

No, Steve is a 30 something in a 30 something year old body that was born 95 year ago. He has a different set of life experiences because of the era he was born and raised in but he does not have 95 years of life experience.

I paid perfect attention to the AOU scene and have watched it many many times. I don't see what you see. My interpretation is not yours. As for who he missed - he was in love with Peggy not the HC and the life he missed is the life he could have lead with her. Why Peggy would present a simple life when she became the head of SHIELD is beyond me. If he'd have stayed in is time he would have been part of that then. His life would have had love and maybe family in addition to purpose and excitement. It's a life lost and he mourns it whether he's accepted the loss or not.

Steve is not like any other soldier who has PSTD, because for them there is a chance to go home again, if not to a specific person or place at lesst to a time and he can't. His world is gone and he's adapting to a new one and making new ties but again that doesn't mean he doesn't mourn or wonder what might have been..

 

[TheVision]

Well we each have our own interpretations of what Cap is about. Im not saying youre wrong on anything. I guess we'll see what happens with him.

 

[Rote]

No, Steve is a 30 something in a 30 something year old body that was born 95 year ago. He has a different set of life experiences because of the era he was born and raised in but he does not have 95 years of life experience.

Agree with that.

Why Peggy would present a simple life when she became the head of SHIELD is beyond me.

Didn't get it either. I blame Whedon for it. But his intention here is clear for me. He stressed it too much and many times, as I said, added with Hill in deleted scenes. And if it's not about PTSD, then the huge part of the vision, when Steve sees the war in the dance hall, makes no sense at all. And Steve is what, SO STOIC to not even reach his hand to Peggy? I don't like this vision very much, because of such role of Peggy here, but I also see no point to be blind and deny the obvious Whedon's intent here.
So, was the vision about his love for Peggy or about the life, he's lost? In that people contradict themselves. Because, he obviously missed not ONLY Peggy from the 40s. At least maybe not HC, but he mourned Bucky as much, as we saw in TWS. Steve is not that kind of man, who can forget everyone dear to him because of his love for a girl.

Uggghh... The problem here for me is (and why this conversation is interesting for me) that I would like to believe in this interpretation. That this vision is all about Steve's big romantic true love for Peggy and nothing else. But I just can't. Too many things in his AoU arc (heck, his whole arc!) just stop making sense then. I don't think, that Stark's "Seems like you walked away all right" was coincidental either. Add here Evans' words, that Cap doesn't know, what love feels like and... I just can't explain his "I don't want a family anymore" at the end with "I loved Peggy so much, that if I can't have family with her, I don't want it with anyone else". Especially when there is far more suitable explanation with his PTSD, which has a proof in the vision. Obviously, this love isn't meant to be SO huge to be like that. Yes, Steggy for me is the most beautiful and the best couple of the entire MCU, but. But I love Cap as a character too much to want him to be such idiot in love, who can't see anything else and can't let go as Peggy did in her life.
And as for the Peggy and SHIELD, what just came to my mind: now Steve knows, that SHIELD was HYDRA all along. Or, maybe just working for SHIELD wasn't enough for him. Or, maybe, Whedon just didn't think about it so deep at all. After all, we know, that Cap isn't his favorite character. Anyway, unfortunately, if you honestly look for what Whedon wanted to say with Steve's arc in AoU, his intention is obvious. It's just comic-book movie, not some smart art-house, so it's not like we aren't meant to believe in what said Ultron+Maria Hill+Stark+Steve himself.

 

[dax]

Agree with that.
Didn't get it either. I blame Whedon for it. But his intention here is clear for me. He stressed it too much and many times, as I said, added with Hill in deleted scenes. And if it's not about PTSD, then the huge part of the vision, when Steve sees the war in the dance hall, makes no sense at all. And Steve is what, SO STOIC to not even reach his hand to Peggy? I don't like this vision very much, because of such role of Peggy here, but I also see no point to be blind and deny the obvious Whedon's intent here.
So, was the vision about his love for Peggy or about the life, he's lost?

Maybe, it's about both of them. Cap feels that the moment he put himself on ice in 1945, he robbed himself of any opportunity to have a family and stability with Peggy. After he was defrosted, he's become the retro Rambo who only knows how to be a soldier and nothing else so like Rambo, Cap is resigned to live a lonely life. As much as Cap wants to start a family, I believe Col. Trautman said it best, "You said your war is over. Maybe the one outside but not the one inside you. I know the reasons why you're doing this but that's not how it works. You may try but you can never escape what you really are... A full-blooded combat soldier." With that in mind, this must be why Cap has given up in wanting family and stability anymore.

 

[TheVision]

I agree with that Rambo comparison. Hes very much like the MCU Rambo albeit a less violent WW2 version.

 

[Rote]

So, Whedon's audiocommentary for AoU. All became clearer. And that's why we couldn't understand each other - because Whedon was against this line "I'm home". I'm not a native English speaker, so it's very possible, that I didn't get all right, but the point is still there and now confirmed. And apparently it was my mistake to blame Whedon for this vision. Not his idea.

Cap is the guy who can't stop seeing war, even at a party for the end of the war.
Who, when asked to imagine a life of normalcy, comes up with nothing. Which, by the way, was Drew Goddard's idea.

Cap is incapable of being a part of the community he's constantly talking about.

And there is a moment where I feel that I got it wrong. And putting the score together came late in the process, later than it should've, and there was one cue that we had two versions of, and it's Cap's revelation that he...
Or his telling Tony that he's at home here in this place. We had a cue that expressed the kind of doubt and poignancy in that.
And I suggested, "Well, what if we tried putting in "a version of the Captain America theme there?"
And everyone liked that better. And, I mean, absolutely everyone. But every time I watch it now, I go, "No. Should've had the doubt,"
because I don't want him to be saying, "Oh, no, it's great. I found my home." I want him to be saying, "I'm a guy who never will."
And, "I'm not satisfied. "I'm not proud of this, that this is what I am. "It's just something I've come to accept."

 

[TheVision]

I wonder why he kept the "I'm home" line in there if he didnt like it.

 

[TalismanRing]

I didn't need the Cap music or the words to show me there was doubt or pain, it's in Evans' performance. It's in his face in the dream, then on the plane after, then at the farm when he looks around. Heck, even Tony as emotionally unperceptive as he normally is asks if Steve is going to be alright. That he says "he's home" is to me just Steve making the best of what he thinks his choices are.

This is a child of the Depression and man from WWII. He's not going to complain about his lot in life or what he's missing, he's going to accept what he has and make the most of it but it doesn't mean he's found happiness.

 

[TheVision]

^^ Hes from a different era with diff morals/outlooks/tastes, add to that he was a selfless, honorable person who was picked to be the first super soldier by Dr Erskine. add to that he missed out on a normal post war life/was frozen for 70 years. So he might not have lived 95 years but he still isnt a modern guy like Tony or Bruce etc. He just isnt like them and never will be. You see it in everything he does as a person. And if he chooses not to lead a normal life and only live to be an Avenger, if that ends, what will he do? Open an art gallery? Be a teacher? I seriously doubt that.

 

[RedRose]

I do like the trippy aspect of Tony being older than Steve (you know what I mean), yet growing up always being in the "old guy"'s shadow. So very interesting. I would love a flashback scene of a young Tony being picked up by Edwin Jarvis with a picture of Cap in the background.

 

[Rote]

Yeah, I guess, Cap is not very happy to be who he is, but there is still not a small difference between "I'm sad, because I still can't let go the 40s and Peggy" and "I'm sad, because of my PTSD and even if I were now in the 40s, I wouldn't have been able to live a peaceful life with Peggy". Different points and meanings of the vision. And this is after he saw himself, that Barton can have both: family and avengering.

I wonder why he kept the "I'm home" line in there if he didnt like it.

Maybe, it's because the other option was too grim and dark for the happy ending of a MCU film.

 

[RedRose]

Yeah, I guess, Cap is not very happy to be who he is, but there is still not a small difference between "I'm sad, because I still can't let go the 40s and Peggy" and "I'm sad, because of my PTSD and even if I were now in the 40s, I wouldn't have been able to live a peaceful life with Peggy". Different points and meanings of the vision. And this is after he saw himself, that Barton can have both: family and avengering.
Maybe, it's because the other option was too grim and dark for the happy ending of a MCU film.

Although a bit off-topic, Barton seemed kinda mopey and conflicted about having a family and avenging. I don't know if by the end he was resolved about it.

 

[TheVision]

I thought "I'm home" sounded fine personally. I wouldnt have guessed Joss didnt care for that line.

The thing with Hawkeye is, he knows the stuff he does is so dangerous, he probably doesnt want to die and leave his wife/kids by themselves. But he feels obligated to be an Avenger.

Compare him to Cap who has noone waiting for him. He probably feels expendable (like Rambo).

 

[RedRose]

True about Hawkeye. I would love to get more background/development with him, but I'm kinda fearful AoU is the most we will get.

 

[Overman27pj]

^^ Hes from a different era with diff morals/outlooks/tastes, add to that he was a selfless, honorable person who was picked to be the first super soldier by Dr Erskine. add to that he missed out on a normal post war life/was frozen for 70 years. So he might not have lived 95 years but he still isnt a modern guy like Tony or Bruce etc. He just isnt like them and never will be. You see it in everything he does as a person. And if he chooses not to lead a normal life and only live to be an Avenger, if that ends, what will he do? Open an art gallery? Be a teacher? I seriously doubt that.

Attendees, just want to say that this whole convo is probably the best, or at least most interesting, that I've seen anywhere on these boards! Kudos!!!

(Orgainic web shooters! NO ORGANIC WEB SHOOTERS!!! LOLZ)

My take on it is slightly different. The vision he had was one in which he was supposed to be happy with. Post war win, Peggy looking all kinds of dime-piece reaching out to him, partying with buddies. This is what you dreamed about if you were in WWII. This was the tops, and even in this perfect idea of a dream, Steve still wasn't happy.

The realization that he wasn't happy at all, in a situation where he 100% should have been, is Steve's dark side. That he is trapped in this soldier persona, unable to ever fully relax or enjoy life, is his dark secret.

I think Tony's comment about him walking away from the vision unscathed was to hammer home this point. Steve had already come to grips with this, and perhaps suspected it about himself. It was confirmed in the vision, that his battle will never end, and that he will never know, because he can't know, happiness outside of being a soldier.

Perhaps a side effect of taking a super soldier serum?

TLR Steve already kinda knew his dark secret (that he was just a soldier now, and not much of a person with person goals), and it was confirmed to him, and he was ok with that. AVENGER 4LIFE BABY.

 

[TheVision]

Thats what Witch did w each of the visions. They tapped into whatever The Avengers' fears/dreams were and haunted them.

I just think Cap wanted to be a regular joe with Peggy and his WW2 pals. The war is over, you got your best girl, some kind of job/family life waiting back in Brooklyn. Its all good. But it wasnt in the cards. It was a vision of what might have been. Now all he has is "Captain America" and a job as head of The Avengers to keep him going.

 

[Rote]

The realization that he wasn't happy at all, in a situation where he 100% should have been, is Steve's dark side. That he is trapped in this soldier persona, unable to ever fully relax or enjoy life, is his dark secret.

Yeah, that was my point all along.

This is a really big question, why life with Peggy would be a too "normal" and "stable" life for him. She is a pretty action girl, much more, than the others. So I really unhappy, that Whedon choosed her to represent this in Steve's vision.

I just think Cap wanted to be a regular joe with Peggy and his WW2 pals. The war is over, you got your best girl, some kind of job/family life waiting back in Brooklyn.

That's what bothers me. Actually there are no Steve's WW2 pals in this vision. No HC, no Bucky, just random soldiers with their dames, all dancing very happily with big smiles on their faces. Maybe Whedon couldn't get HC actors and Stan like he couldn't get Portman and Paltrow, as he said in the commentary, but I seriously doubt that, they are not such a big actors. So, I guess, this vision was more about his inability to have a family with a girl, it even ends with Steve trying to imagine them dancing and kissing, but he can't. And I'm not happy at all with what Whedon did with Steggy here. Peggy really was almost a soldier herself.

 

[TheVision]

I guess it was more about implying the war was over and he couldve had another life besides being Cap.

 

[Rote]

Okay, but the thing is, at least Bucky shouldn't be associated in Steve's mind with war or being Cap. They have known each other all their lives, long before the WW2. So, if the vision was about his lost life in general, Bucky should be there. Or maybe the part of his nightmare was the fact, that Bucky couldn't be there in this time. I don't even know anymore. I suppose, Whedon just didn't care much. He really didn't think about Peggy being not an ordinary girl, that life with her would be very different for Steve, than life with other girls.

 

[RedRose]

I think the point of Steve's vision is that he doesn't really know who he is outside of "Captain America".

 

[TheVision]

Rote: Theres another aspect too. IF they had both come out of the war together they may have made different decisions in terms of marriage/jobs. Peggy might have just been a regular housewife instead of deciding to be a SHIELD worker. That couldve been something she did mainly because of his death. A way to keep his spirit alive or something. Who knows what Steve mightve done instead of being Cap full time. Thats why their paths were altered so much when he went in the ice.

 

[Rote]

Yeah, you are right, their paths would be different. But also I'm not buying that Peggy would become a housewife, it's just not in her nature, she was almost the only girl in the army after all. She is not that regular girl.
What is missing in AoU's Steve's arc, I think, is the explanation, why Steve thinks, he couln't enjoy the family, when he sees Barton's example. I don't think, that Barton as a soldier is completely free from the PTSD. Even Stark says to him, that he will come to this. (Heck, as we saw in IM3, Stark himself had some sort of PTSD. And also I recall BBC Sherlock, where Watson with his PTSD had little trouble to make a family with Mary. Actually there is some good insight on this theme) It's not like Steve was sad, because he was afraid to endanger his possible beloved ones, it seems that he just feels like he doesn't know how to love anymore.

Oh, and what is really interesting in BBC Sherlock in terms of this conversation, is Sherlock's explanation to John, why with his PTSD he has chosen Mary of all the others. Because Mary is like Peggy here, more dark, but the point is the same - not just some regular girl or housewife. I guess, MCU just isn't "smart" or "mature" enough for such deep thoughts.

 

[RedRose]

One thing to note is that both Steve and Natasha are still "young" and interestingly enough both don't have much romantic experience (Natasha can do the spy thing but probably her hesitant approach to Bruce is the first time she herself has tried to have a romantic relationship)...I mean, they aren't teenagers. But they are about 30 and haven't "found themselves" and Clint and Tony are mid 40s and have had more life experience in general. So I think it works that Steve and Natasha are still trying to figure out their personal lives while Clint and Tony are more settled.

Hope that made some sense.

 

[TheVileOne]

Moving back to the topic at hand, umm...Tony Stark creating Ultron which almost blew up the world is a pretty big catalyst. Even James Gunn supports registration.

But here's my problem. How can Tony Stark support registration now? How could the proponents of registration even allow Stark to be a figurehead as such? if the American people want registration and are upset with Stark/Iron Man, how could they be in favor with him joining that side? or is Stark joining this side his punishment?

Just saying, if Barack Obama suddenly became a conservative republican would people really buy it or accept it?

 

[dax]

Yeah, you are right, their paths would be different. But also I'm not buying that Peggy would become a housewife, it's just not in her nature, she was almost the only girl in the army after all. She is not that regular girl.
What is missing in AoU's Steve's arc, I think, is the explanation, why Steve thinks, he couln't enjoy the family, when he sees Barton's example. I don't think, that Barton as a soldier is completely free from the PTSD. Even Stark says to him, that he will come to this. (Heck, as we saw in IM3, Stark himself had some sort of PTSD. And also I recall BBC Sherlock, where Watson with his PTSD had little trouble to make a family with Mary. Actually there is some good insight on this theme) It's not like Steve was sad, because he was afraid to endanger his possible beloved ones, it seems that he just feels like he doesn't know how to love anymore.

I think it's obvious why Steve thinks he can't enjoy family and stability like Barton and Tony. It's like Steve said, "The guy who wanted all of that went into the ice 75 years ago" which meant that for him, it's way too late to think about love and happiness. Steve is going to be 100 years old in a couple of years and men that age are either dead or in a retirement home so Steve probably views himself as a "dead man walking". Even in the 1st Avengers film, when he's having war flashbacks while hitting the punching bag, Steve thinks he should've died in the plane crash.