racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[Chance Jackson]

Probably because he has been since the thirties. Or do you mean why he looks like a human who is white?

I think that's what he means

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Just wanted to throw out an opinion of mine

2013 was the first year to have superhero movies not take place in the USA

Now I love the USA but I found is very refreshing to finally see some superhero movies set elsewhere (for the majority)

Thor gave us Greenwich, London England and The Wolverine gave us Tokyo Japan

The later was not only really good but it was refreshing seeing a movie not heavily Caucasian. True it wasn't diverse as it was dominated by asian characters but it is the only superhero movie where the majority ethnicity wasn't Caucasian

Given that we've gotten probably 30-ish marvel/dc/dark horse CBMS it was a milestone for diversity and equal representation, imo

(I'm Caucasian btw)

 

[Ant-manic]

I don't know. I see the point, but Halle Berry did pretty well after her Oscar win (even if her choices of which roles to take left something to be desired, but that was on her). I think the bias with roles is more against older actresses than actresses of other races.

halle berry can be somewhat of a sore subject amongst black people (i'll limit it to those i've heard discuss her). for starters, i don't think her performance in Monsters Ball was Oscar-worthy. i'd say that her getting the award for that role was an example of racism in hollywood. and the rest of Halle's career accentuates that point. if she had been darker or more stereotypically african-looking, we wouldn't even know her name. and billy bob thornton is gross.

 

[Lencho01]

I don't know. I see the point, but Halle Berry did pretty well after her Oscar win (even if her choices of which roles to take left something to be desired, but that was on her). I think the bias with roles is more against older actresses than actresses of other races.

But, didn't Berry already have an ok career before her win? I think Woodard was saying Nyong'o is in a similar position Lawrence was in terms her skill being noticed early in her career. But, will she have the same opportunities in Hollywood or will her skin color hold her back? Only time will tell.

 

[Dr. Evil]

But, didn't Berry already have an ok career before her win? I think Woodard was saying Nyong'o is in a similar position Lawrence was in terms her skill being noticed early in her career. But, will she have the same opportunities in Hollywood or will her skin color hold her back? Only time will tell.

I don't think it's skin color, I think it's the unknown. 12 Years a Slave is her first movie.

We don't know what her future holds. She will either be the next great black actress or she will fade ala Monique and Jennifer Hudson and fail to repeat the initial success. Berry has at least the X Men films (Hudson and Monique don't have anything close to that).

Same was said last year for Quevanzhane Wallis when she got nominated for all of those awards. She's only ten, so he has plenty of time to prove she has staying power. I think she ends up going the Disney Channel route (nothing wrong with that, as it's worked for Miley Cyrus and Selena Gomez).

The major black actresses right now are Zoe Saldana, Kerry Washington, Viola Davis, Paula Patton, Naomie Harris, Halle Berry, Angela Bassett, Octavia Spencer and Rosario Dawson (although her career seems to have stagnated to a point where it's currently stuck in neutral) and to a lesser degree, Taraji P Henson. They are major because of various awards, box office success and name recognition. Oprah is only a part time actress, but she has the huge name. Nyong'o does not fit in that group, at least not yet. Ask someone to name ten black actresses, and Saldana, Washington, Harris, Berry, Bassett, Dawson and Patton will come up more often than not with possible mentions of Davis, Spencer and Henson.

Think about it. If Saldana, Washington, Patton, Dawson or Harris got the same awards publicity as Nyong'o, we wouldn't be having a discussion on their futures in Hollywood, because we know what their futures are going to be like in Hollywood after the hype dies (except for Dawson) and instead we would be taking about their future projects. Since this her first movie, we don't know what the future is going to be for Nyong'o.

Barkhan Abdi (Captain Phillips) is in the same boat as Nyong'o. If he's nominated, we don't know what his future holds. We know what will happen to Ejiofor and Elba after the Oscar hype dies down, but we don't know what will happen to Abdi after the Oscar hype is long gone. Last year, Denzel Washington received Oscar hype for Flight. We know what happened after the hype died down, all of the Denzel discussion went to talking about his next movie.

 

[Lencho01]

I don't think it's skin color, I think it's the unknown. 12 Years a Slave is her first movie.

We don't know what her future holds. She will either be the next great black actress or she will fade ala Monique and Jennifer Hudson and fail to repeat the initial success. Berry has at least the X Men films (Hudson and Monique don't have anything close to that).

Same was said last year for Quevanzhane Wallis when she got nominated for all of those awards. She's only ten, so he has plenty of time to prove she has staying power. I think she ends up going the Disney Channel route (nothing wrong with that, as it's worked for Miley Cyrus and Selena Gomez).

The major black actresses right now are Zoe Saldana, Kerry Washington, Viola Davis, Paula Patton, Naomie Harris, Halle Berry, Angela Bassett, Octavia Spencer and Rosario Dawson (although her career seems to have stagnated to a point where it's currently stuck in neutral) and to a lesser degree, Taraji P Henson. They are major because of various awards, box office success and name recognition. Oprah is only a part time actress, but she has the huge name. Nyong'o does not fit in that group, at least not yet. Ask someone to name ten black actresses, and Saldana, Washington, Harris, Berry, Bassett, Dawson and Patton will come up more often than not with possible mentions of Davis, Spencer and Henson.

Think about it. If Saldana, Washington, Patton, Dawson or Harris got the same awards publicity as Nyong'o, we wouldn't be having a discussion on their futures in Hollywood, because we know what their futures are going to be like in Hollywood after the hype dies (except for Dawson) and instead we would be taking about their future projects. Since this her first movie, we don't know what the future is going to be for Nyong'o.

Barkhan Abdi (Captain Phillips) is in the same boat as Nyong'o. If he's nominated, we don't know what his future holds. We know what will happen to Ejiofor and Elba after the Oscar hype dies down, but we don't know what will happen to Abdi after the Oscar hype is long gone. Last year, Denzel Washington received Oscar hype for Flight. We know what happened after the hype died down, all of the Denzel discussion went to talking about his next movie.

What do you mean the unknown?

It's pretty obvious the way Hollywood works; if you took various actresses with the same talent, the White one(s) are more likely to have the most success in terms of opportunities for other and/or better roles. I'm pretty sure that's what Woodard was getting at. That's why she brought up Lawrence since she was more-or-less in the same position. Much acclaim to the point of Oscar talk early in her career and it has led to what looks like a great career.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Superheroes are an American (and to a lesser extent Canadian) phenomena though. Like what mecha is to the Japanese. Sure, there is some overlap, but it will always be focused mostly on Americans, and set mostly in America.

Even the movies Americanized Wolverine.

 

[Doctor Evo]

From a few pages back:

None of this addresses the questions I outlined previously. It doesn't explain why this aspect of the character is necessary for the maintenance of his overall identity.

If you were to ask somebody what characteristics define Batman, "old money," will rarely be mentioned, and for good reason.

 

[Shikamaru]

None of this addresses the questions I outlined previously. It doesn't explain why this aspect of the character is necessary for the maintenance of his overall identity.

If you were to ask somebody what characteristics define Batman, "old money," will rarely be mentioned, and for good reason.

I wasn't talking about "old money". I was talking about the theme of legacy. More specifically the legacy of the Wayne family - what effect it has on Gotham, what effect it has on the way Bruce sees himself, what effect it has on the way people like Alfred see him, and what effect it has on the way Gotham sees both sides (the playboy (Bruce) side and the urban "demon" (Batman) side).

You're saying the theme of legacy has no importance to his character and identity?

 

[Dr. Evil]

What do you mean the unknown?

The unknown in that we don't really know what the future in Hollywood is going to be for Abdi and Nyong'o and it does have to do with their race, but it also has a lot to do with the fact that these are their first movies. They were not established actors before doing either films. If we had seen them on TV before and it was the big screen debut for both, we would not be talking about their future in Hollywood and instead future projects. If they were white, things would be different yes I get that point. I'm not looking at their current status, I am more interested in their futures.

Jennifer Lawrence will continue to get projects and be in demand once the Oscar hype dies down. That is a fact, but what is also a fact is that we will continue to discuss future projects for Idris Elba and Chiwetel Ejiofor after the Oscar hype dies down. Once that goes away, all of the discussions of Elba and Ejiofor will be:

- What's coming up on BBC's Luther?
- Will Marvel cast Ejiofor as T'Challa? Will he be in the next Star Wars film?
- Will Elba have an extended role in Thor 3? Will he play John Stewart Green Lantern? Will Ejiofor play John Stewart? Will one play Stewart and the other play Martian Manhunter?
- Will one of them play Lex Luthor?

Among others.

We won't get those discussions with Abdi and Nyong'o, at least not yet. That's what I mean by unknown.

 

[Lencho01]

The unknown in that we don't really know what the future in Hollywood is going to be for Abdi and Nyong'o and it does have to do with their race, but it also has a lot to do with the fact that these are their first movies. They were not established actors before doing either films. If we had seen them on TV before and it was the big screen debut for both, we would not be talking about their future in Hollywood and instead future projects. If they were white, things would be different yes I get that point. I'm not looking at their current status, I am more interested in their futures.

Jennifer Lawrence will continue to get projects and be in demand once the Oscar hype dies down. That is a fact, but what is also a fact is that we will continue to discuss future projects for Idris Elba and Chiwetel Ejiofor after the Oscar hype dies down. Once that goes away, all of the discussions of Elba and Ejiofor will be:

- What's coming up on BBC's Luther?
- Will Marvel cast Ejiofor as T'Challa? Will he be in the next Star Wars film?
- Will Elba have an extended role in Thor 3? Will he play John Stewart Green Lantern? Will Ejiofor play John Stewart? Will one play Stewart and the other play Martian Manhunter?
- Will one of them play Lex Luthor?

Among others.

We won't get those discussions with Abdi and Nyong'o, at least not yet. That's what I mean by unknown.

Even if these weren't their first roles (period), I still think we'd be talking where their careers could go in the future the same way people talked about Lawrence and Winter's Bone even though that wasn't her first role. Just the nature of it being the start of their careers and all that.

Elba and Ejiofor have been acting for years and all that comic-based film talk has pretty much been going for years too back when they were less famous. And it definitely doesn't hurt that they're males. They're pretty much at the point in their careers where the type of films they choose to do will make or break them, but it won't be due to a lack of opportunities. That may be the case for actors like Abdi and Nyong'o.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Even if these weren't their first roles (period), I still think we'd be talking where their careers could go in the future the same way people talked about Lawrence and Winter's Bone even though that wasn't her first role. Just the nature of it being the start of their careers and all that.

Elba and Ejiofor have been acting for years and all that comic-based film talk has pretty much been going for years too back when they were less famous. And it definitely doesn't hurt that they're males. They're pretty much at the point in their careers where the type of films they choose to do will make or break them, but it won't be due to a lack of opportunities. That may be the case for actors like Abdi and Nyong'o.

Well of course. I think Nyong'o will have a more successful career than Abdi because she's not bad to look at either. I saw that she's growing her hair out a bit at the Golden Globes and she was looking stunning at the Globes. What route she takes will be interesting to see. Does she go the Indies only route? Does she mix it up between indies and major studio films? Does she do both film and TV? I would not be surprised if in a year, she's one of those steadily working actresses in Hollywood, whether it be in TV or movies. The Golden Globes showed how attractive and stunning she can be and Hollywood likes that.

Abdi, I'm not sure about. He's likely best as a supporting actor in film and/or TV, but sadly I think due to how he looks his roles are going to be limited. He's not a hulking mass like Dwayne Johnson or Terry Crews, but he's also not handsome like Elba and Ejiofor. I think he goes more of the Indie route. I would not be completely surprised if his name comes up in any future biopic on a Kenyan distance runner because he has that body.

 

[Lencho01]

Well of course. I think Nyong'o will have a more successful career than Abdi because she's not bad to look at either. I saw that she's growing her hair out a bit at the Golden Globes and she was looking stunning at the Globes. What route she takes will be interesting to see. Does she go the Indies only route? Does she mix it up between indies and major studio films? Does she do both film and TV? I would not be surprised if in a year, she's one of those steadily working actresses in Hollywood, whether it be in TV or movies. The Golden Globes showed how attractive and stunning she can be and Hollywood likes that.

Abdi, I'm not sure about. He's likely best as a supporting actor in film and/or TV, but sadly I think due to how he looks his roles are going to be limited. He's not a hulking mass like Dwayne Johnson or Terry Crews, but he's also not handsome like Elba and Ejiofor. I think he goes more of the Indie route. I would not be completely surprised if his name comes up in any future biopic on a Kenyan distance runner because he has that body.

Yeah, it's pretty much a given her looks will take her farther than Abdi. With the way things are, I think it'd be wise for both to stick with independent films for now. Also, I think it'll help show that they're more in control of their careers rather than Hollywood.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yeah, it's pretty much a given her looks will take her farther than Abdi. With the way things are, I think it'd be wise for both to stick with independent films for now. Also, I think it'll help show that they're more in control of their careers rather than Hollywood.

I do think both will go the Indy route, but if say a certain mega superstar Hollywood actor (who's name rhymes with Dom Bruise) wanted Nyong'o for a major role in one of his next films, I doubt she says no.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I wasn't talking about "old money". I was talking about the theme of legacy. More specifically the legacy of the Wayne family - what effect it has on Gotham, what effect it has on the way Bruce sees himself, what effect it has on the way people like Alfred see him, and what effect it has on the way Gotham sees both sides (the playboy (Bruce) side and the urban "demon" (Batman) side).

You're saying the theme of legacy has no importance to his character and identity?

I never said it has no importance. Hyperbole, much?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Someone is using hyperbole on the Hype?! Noooo, never....

 

[Lencho01]

I do think both will go the Indy route, but if say a certain mega superstar Hollywood actor (who's name rhymes with Dom Bruise) wanted Nyong'o for a major role in one of his next films, I doubt she says no.

Yep. I doubt that too.

 

[Teelie]

Someone is using hyperbole on the Hype?! Noooo, never....

Sorry to say sometimes these should be renamed the Superhero Hyperbole Forums.

 

[Shikamaru]

I never said it has no importance. Hyperbole, much?

So you agree that the family legacy aspect is important to Batman's character? Then you agree you can't change Batman's race without affecting that.

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't think I shared my general opinion on this topic as of yet.

Can you alter a character's race? In my opinion, it depends. It varies from character to character.

There are characters who realistically cannot have their races changed while everything else remains intact - whose ethnicities cannot be altered without changing who the character is and/or an important part of their history. Batman, Captain America, and Black Panther are good examples. Changing only their race would create unrealistic scenarios. I already explained my stance on Batman and how that would affect his history. Black Panther is obvious. As for Cap, they wouldn't have picked a minority man for the experiment back in the 1940's.

Then there are characters like Superman who realistically can be a different ethnicity (the chance of white-looking aliens isn't any higher than of black-looking aliens) but they work as white due to thematic reasons. Superman is white because he is and represents the classic old-school Conservative farmboy from the midwest of America.

Then there are characters who can literally be any race. Their ethnicity is not tied to them whatsoever. Examples are characters like Spider-Man and Flash. Them being white plays no major part of their history whatsoever. It isn't a huge part of their character whatsoever. In the case of Peter Parker specifically, he is meant to be the everyman living in multicultural NYC (thus he represents everyone).

Then there is James Bond. Bond can also literally be played by any race...as long as the actor is English (and by that, I mean he was born and/or grew up in the UK). Bond is the one thing the Brits have. Skyfall outgrossed Avengers in the UK. Many great actors like Adam West and Clint Eastwood turned down the role of Bond out of respect for Bond's English iconography. Can an English actor like Idris Elba play Bond? Absolutely.

Then there are characters whose ethnicities being altered make no sense whatsoever including the excuse of political correctness. A good example is Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner. Can they be played by, for example, a black man? Sure. Their white ethnicity doesn't play any important part in their character, much like Barry/Wally. But what is the point when you have John Stewart? Why not just use John Stewart to begin with if you want a black GL to begin with?

This is all just my opinion on the issue. Feel free to disagree.

 

[The Question]

Superheroes are an American (and to a lesser extent Canadian) phenomena though. Like what mecha is to the Japanese. Sure, there is some overlap, but it will always be focused mostly on Americans, and set mostly in America.

Japan has superheroes. Ultraman, Kamen Rider, Sailor Moon, Super Sentai, 8 Man, Cyborg 009, all superheroes, all incredibly popular. And heck, the UK has super heroes too, in their own way. Doctor Who is pretty much the British cultural equivalent to Superman.

Even the movies Americanized Wolverine.

No they didn't. He's from Canada and he speaks with a Canadian accent.

 

[Warhammer]

I'll tell you one thing. Apparently I'm not as big of a Batman fan as I thought because I had no idea about his whole deep, enriching family history that spans generations and generations. I always figured Batman's ethnicity shouldn't be changed because well...he's arguably the most popular superhero in the world and to change the race would be polarizing.

I think the whole family history justifying why he must be white is a bunch of bulls*** to be honest. Nobody cares about the history of the Wayne family aside from the fact that they were a powerful and wealthy family who did good in Gotham before their demise.

 

[moviedoors]

I think the whole family history justifying why he must be white is a bunch of bulls*** to be honest. Nobody cares about the history of the Wayne family aside from the fact that they were a powerful and wealthy family who did good in Gotham before their demise.

Agreed.He couldn't have a family legacy if the Wayne's were black? Ridiculous. People are grossly overstating how important the specifics of Bruce Wayne's family history is. You know what's far more important? Him witnessing his parent's murder! That is what defines Batman. That's the crucial cog that you can't change. The rest is details that can and have been reshaped and re-examined and revisited.

Now, there's plenty of characters that I think would like to see recast as a new race before Batman (donaldgloveraspeterparker), but I'm certainly not opposed to it and I would applaud the effort.

 

[The Question]

The only thing we'd lose if we saw a version of the Wayne family that was relatively new money is the notion that the Wayne family basically founded Gotham City, and by extension Bruce Wayne is basically the crown prince of Gotham. As someone who's generally of the opinion that monarchies are a stupid idea, that's an aspect of the Bat mythos I can happily live without.

 

[Shikamaru]

Agreed.He couldn't have a family legacy if the Wayne's were black? Ridiculous.

I already addressed that. It's not that there can't be no theme of legacy whatsoever; it's that it wouldn't have the exact same amount of impact. The whole "playboy act is ruining family's image but I have to in order to secretly fulfill their legacy as Batman by continuing to help the city" angle just wouldn't have the same impact under 3 generations as, for example, Solomon and Alan Wayne working with Gotham's architects on the city and their history with the Civil War. I'm sorry but it just wouldn't be the same.

Now, whether or not you like that angle is an entirely different topic but just because someone doesn't like something about a character does not mean it isn't important to the character. So many people hate that Batman doesn't kill the Joker and doesn't use guns. That doesn't mean his no-kill/gun rule isn't a huge part of his character. Me personally, I never cared too much for the whole paranoia angle that so many writers beef up, but many writers have beefed it up nonetheless.